The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Shotguns => Topic started by: tstand on February 09, 2012, 12:53:02 PM
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I'm planning to get a 12 ga shotgun for home defense, my first real firearm. A friend suggested a Remington 870 with the Knoxx stock (see below), so it could be adjusted to fit both my wife and I. Is this a good choice? I like the idea of the adjustable stock to get a decent pull length for each of us. However, I also have heard complaints that the design of the stock is faulty and when the gun is fired, the stock can strike one's cheek bone in a painful way.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/tactical/shotguns/model-870-express-tactical-blackhawk.aspx
Another issue is where can I get one of these guns at less than MSRP? They seem to be sold out everywhere (online anyway). I could buy a different configuration and then find the Knoxx stock alone. For instance, I could start with the 870 Express Tactical, which are more easily found online. I like that door breaching tool, too.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-870/model-870-express-tactical.aspx
Thanks folks!
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Or maybe I should forget about a traditional design and get a Kel Tec KSG instead. Hehe.
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Most guns can be had from 15% to 20% or more below the MSRP. I've never paid retail MSRP for anything!
Beware of Bass Pro though, they tend to be higher and have their monthly sales that bring the guns down to what others are charging.
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The Knoxx stock is a great choice for the 870. Not only will it give a larger range for length of pull, but it will significantly reduce felt recoil which will also benefit both you and your wife.
And yes, you can pick up an 870 with a standard stock and purchase the Knoxx stock separately and install it. (I have done this and it should be no problem if you can use a screwdriver...but it does take a long one).
You might want to consider the Knoxx Cheek Piece which might offer more comfort/usability than the plain Knoxx stock. It also holds 5 shells if you wish to use them.
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/PowerPak-Modular-Cheek-Piece,212,165.htm
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Check out Bud's Guns online for just about the lowest pricing.
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Remember that if you go with the Knoxx stock that you should store it in the short position for your wife. That way it is always usable for both of you in a hurry. You can always lengthen if you have time, but it is possible for you to shoot with it short. She can not shoot it if it is long.
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Remember that if you go with the Knoxx stock that you should store it in the short position for your wife. That way it is always usable for both of you in a hurry. You can always lengthen if you have time, but it is possible for you to shoot with it short. She can not shoot it if it is long.
Thanks, I was wondering about that.
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I was kind of half-joking about the Kel Tec. Would it make a good HD shotgun for us? I like that it is short for maneuverability inside a house, and you can switch between two tubes of ammo, storiing different kinds of shot in each tube.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/12/robert-farago/gun-review-kel-tec-ksg/
It might be weird to shoot skeet with it to practice use, though.
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Mossberg
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3&display=specs
the model 55264 has an adjustable stock.
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When the KSG was first announced and there were some tests of it, I watched several videos of it in operation.
As the article you posted mentions, it seemed like everyone had problems getting the gun to operate without a stoppage.
From the reports I read at that time, part of the problems were because the trigger must be released before you pump the slide. That is not the operation with which I am familiar. I fire, rack the slide, release the trigger to reset point, and fire again. It just seem natural to me to use pumping the slide to help bring the muzzle back into position after recoil and to have to change my grip to do that seems counter-intuitive to me. This was on the first prototype guns sent out for review and they may have changed the design since then.
Also, as the article said, short cycling can be a problem.
Both of these problems can be over come with practice, particularly the short cycling.
I do like the design and the functionality of the gun and would be interested if the design was more "traditional" with the trigger release and if the price were much more reasonable.
If you have no experience with a shotgun, you might not find the trigger release procedure to be a problem. Find a 870 and dry cycle it both ways and see which you like...and see if the difference is a deal breaker for you.
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Mossberg
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3&display=specs
the model 55264 has an adjustable stock.
The 55264 has a pistol grip and tang safety.
I had a Mossberg 590 with a tang safety and the Knoxx stock installed. I did not like the setup because I found the tang safety very cumbersome to access with a pistol grip stock. Others here have the setup and don't seem to regard it as a deficiency... what do they know? ;D ;D
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Your much better off to skip the Kel Tec and stick with a conventional pump or semi auto shot gun.
Nothing wrong with it per se, but you and your wife are just getting into guns, the KT seems to even give professionals problems, I would not want to learn on it. Secondly is the price issue, you can get a Maverick Arms (Mossberg made in Mexico ) for about a third the cost of the KT. Third issue is after market modifications, there aren't any for the KT.
As to the Knoxx recoil absorbing stocks, it recoils "funny" with the whole gun sliding to the rear instead of pushing you.
If recoil is that much of an issue go with a semi auto since cycling the action soaks up a bit of the kick. I would definitely get an "M-4" style telescoping stock, even if your wife never shoots it, it allows you to compensate for things like heavier winter clothing.
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The Knoxx stock is a great choice for the 870. Not only will it give a larger range for length of pull, but it will significantly reduce felt recoil which will also benefit both you and your wife.
And yes, you can pick up an 870 with a standard stock and purchase the Knoxx stock separately and install it. (I have done this and it should be no problem if you can use a screwdriver...but it does take a long one).
You might want to consider the Knoxx Cheek Piece which might offer more comfort/usability than the plain Knoxx stock. It also holds 5 shells if you wish to use them.
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/PowerPak-Modular-Cheek-Piece,212,165.htm
I like the looks of that thing and it is not very expensive.
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Your much better off to skip the Kel Tec and stick with a conventional pump or semi auto shot gun.
Nothing wrong with it per se, but you and your wife are just getting into guns, the KT seems to even give professionals problems, I would not want to learn on it. Secondly is the price issue, you can get a Maverick Arms (Mossberg made in Mexico ) for about a third the cost of the KT. Third issue is after market modifications, there aren't any for the KT.
As to the Knoxx recoil absorbing stocks, it recoils "funny" with the whole gun sliding to the rear instead of pushing you.
If recoil is that much of an issue go with a semi auto since cycling the action soaks up a bit of the kick. I would definitely get an "M-4" style telescoping stock, even if your wife never shoots it, it allows you to compensate for things like heavier winter clothing.
The auto shotguns, at least the Remington ones, are expensive. I think I'll stick with the 870.
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A pump is the shotgun version of the revolver. If it doesn't go bang the fix is relatively simple. A semi-auto has a more complex manual of arms.
Most pump issues are just a matter of not completely cycling the pump - need to shove the forestock forward, or not cycling it at all. Controls are simpler, and this shortens the needed amount of practice time. My preferred guns are semi-auto, but I seem to have out grown women and moved to guns ;) I have more trigger time in a week than many have in six months or even a year.
Practice - Perfect Practice - is the key! Know your gun, practice with it, and incorporate it in your plan.
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I don't have any personal experience with pistol grip shotguns, but I think there are some pros and cons to getting one. For home defense, I think it's a good idea, especially with an adjustable stock. However, it might impede part of your planned training, specifically the skeet shooting. Someone with more experience please speak up if you have experience shooting skeet with a pistol grip. That doesn't mean you can't get quality practice with other methods. As to the the shotgun itself, keep it simple and practice.
Has anyone actually seen a KelTec for sale in person? KelTec tends to have some issues on getting their products to the stores, in my experience.
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I like Knoxx, but didn't want to wait for one as my area was not stocking them...BUT,....I did pick up an ATI adj. stock for my 870 and when fully retracted, is shorter than my double barrel coach gun.
Just took a screwdriver. I would also consider replacing the fwd. clamp with a rail-clamp. I got mine Mesa Tactical.
Link here.
http://www.nokick.com/Mesa_Tactical_Barrel_Clamp_with_Rail_for_Rem_870_p/mesa%20tactical%2090700.htm
CDNN, Midway, brownells, all sell some variation..
But it's for my Streamlight. which light the crap out of a room...and it also has a quick release and comes off in a second.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/870access2001.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/870access002.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/870access001.jpg)
I love my 870,. with Winchester reduced recoil 00Buck, 9 and 21 pellet for HD...
Shop around for the right price.
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Well, kind a nit pick here, but I think I like the features on one Remington config over another:
I like this one better (rail, door breacher)... and would seperately add the Knoxx stock
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-870/model-870-express-tactical.aspx
Or I could get this, which comes with the Knoxx stock but no rail or breacher...
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/tactical/shotguns/model-870-express-tactical-blackhawk.aspx
Am I thinking about this correctly?
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Those look like good platforms. Both have an extended magazine which you would want.
I wouldn't worry to much about the breacher...not likely you will need to blast the locks in a home defense situation.
The ghost rings would be nice to have.
There is an attachment for the 870, it straddles the top of the receiver using replacement pins to secure it. It has a "side saddle" shell holder, 6 rounds I believe, and comes with a longer top rail than on the pictured 870.
Second picture down on left, second down on right mounted at this link.
http://www.mesatactical.com/index.php?id=56
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I built up an 870 Knoxx stock with the cheek piece. I built it as a camp shotgun for guys size 5'5"-6'6" I would make sure you order the second gen version check lapolicegear.com cheaperthandirt.com uscav.com and maybe ebay.com
I have a dedicated Surefire forend I'm using
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I built up an 870 Knoxx stock with the cheek piece. I built it as a camp shotgun for guys size 5'5"-6'6" I would make sure you order the second gen version check lapolicegear.com cheaperthandirt.com uscav.com and maybe ebay.com
I have a dedicated Surefire forend I'm using
Why do you suggest the spec op version (the second one)?
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The second version you comes with the sling attachment (I had to add a GG&G for the single point) the second has a seven position vs the 5 position that mine has. Thicker Limbsaver buttpad and you can customize the grips.
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I'm planning to get a 12 ga shotgun for home defense, my first real firearm. A friend suggested a Remington 870 with the Knoxx stock (see below), so it could be adjusted to fit both my wife and I. Is this a good choice? I like the idea of the adjustable stock to get a decent pull length for each of us. However, I also have heard complaints that the design of the stock is faulty and when the gun is fired, the stock can strike one's cheek bone in a painful way.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/tactical/shotguns/model-870-express-tactical-blackhawk.aspx
Another issue is where can I get one of these guns at less than MSRP? They seem to be sold out everywhere (online anyway). I could buy a different configuration and then find the Knoxx stock alone. For instance, I could start with the 870 Express Tactical, which are more easily found online. I like that door breaching tool, too.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-870/model-870-express-tactical.aspx
Thanks folks!
As much fun as tricking any gun out is - and I enjoy it as much as the next man - everyone here is missing the point.
Two is one, one is none.
One gun is a risk. Buy 2, one for each of you so you can both help defend yourselves and each other, and your home. Besides, you could buy 2 different shotties and have the fun of trying them out with each other.
Agreed with the Practice Practice Practice mantra though.
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As much fun as tricking any gun out is - and I enjoy it as much as the next man - everyone here is missing the point.
Two is one, one is none.
One gun is a risk. Buy 2, one for each of you so you can both help defend yourselves and each other, and your home. Besides, you could buy 2 different shotties and have the fun of trying them out with each other.
Agreed with the Practice Practice Practice mantra though.
Good point, Machines break, usually at the worst possible moment.
And the batteries in your flashlight will only be dead when you lose electricity at night. ;D
Murphy was an optimist !
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As much fun as tricking any gun out is - and I enjoy it as much as the next man - everyone here is missing the point.
Two is one, one is none.
One gun is a risk. Buy 2, one for each of you so you can both help defend yourselves and each other, and your home. Besides, you could buy 2 different shotties and have the fun of trying them out with each other.
Agreed with the Practice Practice Practice mantra though.
Ditto
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I would like to get two, but can't afford two right now. With the gun purchase I also need a safe, so there is that expense, too. Actually, I've got a longer term plan that involves multiple weapons and safes.
The plan is to have a safe/secure room on each level of the house. That way we could have more than one possible destination depending on circumstances. Within each room would be a gun safe, with one or more fireamrs in it.
So the initial investment is a single shotgun and one safe, and then secure one room with an autolocking keypad door.
I am considering the Sentry Safe Home Defense Center for a quick-access safe. We have two kids, so I'm not leaving the guns out in the open.
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I could get two H&R Pardner Pump Protectors, and accessorize, for probably less than one 870 tactical with the knoxx stock.
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as commented before, if the shotgun fits her, you also can shoot it....a wooden butt stock can be shortened dramatically, and a recoil reducing sorbothane recoil pad installed by a talented amateur....if you can find a factory 21inch slug barrel (after all you will be shooting it like a rifle anyway in a home defense situation).....you get good sights and factory threaded choke tube.... don't add a magazine extension until she has a chance to shoot it as the fore end weight might be a concern....if you add a side saddle for extra shells, be sure to not over tighten the screws.... no reason to install a sling, they just get in the way for home defense.... remember that with a field grade shotgun the stock comb slopes downward, so the force of the recoil drives back into your cheek bone... if you could find a trap or skeet stock profile with the comb higher, it would be easier for her to learn without the pain...there are a lot of used 870's on the market... look for one of the slug guns with high profile sights or turkey guns with a vent rib from the factory... good luck....the youth model stocks are shorter
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I could get two H&R Pardner Pump Protectors, and accessorize, for probably less than one 870 tactical with the knoxx stock.
Before you commit to that be sure that any after market items you may want are made in a version that fits it.
I know the Knoxx stock only fits Remington, Mossberg, and some Winchester pumps.
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the knoxx stock will fit the pardner pump. i have one myself with a truglo fiber optic front sight and side sidle. everything that fits the remington will work on the h&r except barrel. the lug in slightly different there but everything else is good to go!
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the knoxx stock will fit the pardner pump. i have one myself with a truglo fiber optic front sight and side sidle. everything that fits the remington will work on the h&r except barrel. the lug in slightly different there but everything else is good to go!
That is good info to know.