The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Shotguns => Topic started by: twyacht on February 11, 2012, 05:01:12 PM
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That's why I prefer 00Buck, 9 or 21 pellet. Although his follow up with an empty shotgun makes sense also.
http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/2012/02/shotguns-i-hope-this-post-makes-joan.html
10 February 2012
Shotguns, I hope this post makes Joan Peterson cry.
Got this quote from Weerd about birdshot and shotguns for self defense.
I’ll make a quick assumption. There ARE people who use long sporting shotguns for home defense, and there are people who think bird and skeet loads are useful for home defense (they aren’t DON’T!), there’s a strong chance that this isn’t a home defense gun, and a better chance that its just a hunting gun that was either intentionally left loaded, or never properly cleared for storage.
Here is the caveat, the lighter your projectile the closer you need to be to your target to do damage. If all you have birdshot or skeet loads in your pump gun then you literally, not figuratively, shove the muzzle of your shotgun against skin to get decent terminal ballistics. The thing about fires is that if you aren't achieving the effect you desire, just use more.
There are much better choices than light shot for home defense, but if you find yourself needing to stop someone NOW with what you have on hand, pull the trigger and pump the action as fast as you can while advancing on the intruder. You need to close the distance to make your fires effective. Be AGGRESSIVE enough, FAST enough, and you'll live through it. If you run out of rounds on the way in, BUTT STROKE the bad guy to the head, kick him in the guts, use the empty shotgun like a baseball bat and start wailing on the perp with all your might.
If you end up shoving the muzzle of your shotgun into a hole opened up by a previous shot then so be it. Point blank range starts at the muzzle, and while firearms are a good way to gain space, sometimes you have to close space to gain an advantage. Better to be showering off someones guts later than a statistic.
Unlike Joan Peterson, I don't advocate for the rights of criminals to have a safe working environment. Identify the threat (positive identification, know what you need to do) and then eliminate the threat. Just cause you don't have buckshot or slugs in your bird gun is no excuse to abdicate your duty to protect yourself and your loved ones.
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Variables, of course, come into play based on one's particular environment. Thought it was worth considering.
Thoughts?
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I have no problem with the basic gist of what he says, but I completely disagree with his opinion of lighter shot loads.
The Box o'truth video shows larger shot penetrating 6 - 9 sheets of dry wall, between me and my neighbor there are 2.
I would not miss him if I accidentally blew him away, but it would greatly complicate an otherwise simple case of self defense.
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While I respect everyone's right to an opinion, I just reserve my right to evaluate them based on mine. I also agree with some of what he says, need to be relatively close, beat them with an empty gun, etc. At room distances, 10-18' in my neck of the woods, the 7 ,8 & 9 shot would open 6-10". No one can tell me that 300-400 pellets traveling700 + FPS wouldn't do formidable damage to the human body, no matter where they hit. I'm going to fall back on the "cliche" argument, would YOU stand there after being hit by this and wait for another?!?
Brian
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If shot spreads 1" per yard traveled I would be shooting 3" patterns. But I use a handgun so it doesn't matter.
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I have never thought of using bird shot loads for Home Defense, they make 00 Buck for that. My neighbors are at least 40 feet away from the closest corner of my house, the garage, and those walls are 3/4 OSB over R-13 insulation on the inside and 3/4 siding on the outside. Now in my younger days I used to "drill" holes with birdshot from about 5-7 feet through 2x4s and 2x6s so I know what it can do at close range. But I'm agree with the author you have to use what you have on hand, I just like to keep the buck shot on hand. Right now I have 3" loads in the 870 and really need to get some 2 3/4" low recoil for the house because my daughter sleeps on the other side of the wall from me-a closet and clothes between me and her not likely that I'll shoot from my side of the bed into the closet 3 feet away. The other two girls sleep upstairs with sheet rock and flooring between me and them in most HD situations.
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While I respect everyone's right to an opinion, I just reserve my right to evaluate them based on mine. I also agree with some of what he says, need to be relatively close, beat them with an empty gun, etc. At room distances, 10-18' in my neck of the woods, the 7 ,8 & 9 shot would open 6-10". No one can tell me that 300-400 pellets traveling700 + FPS wouldn't do formidable damage to the human body, no matter where they hit. I'm going to fall back on the "cliche" argument, would YOU stand there after being hit by this and wait for another?!?
Brian
I don't think the objection to small shot is that the bad guys would enjoy getting hit with it, just that they wouldn't stand and wait for another....instead they'd reach you and do you in before you got off a second shot...and then die later.
I really don't know the terminal ballistics of small shot on humans at SD ranges, so I don't know if they are right in their belief it would be ineffective...but without penetration, it is not going to do as good a job as a load that does.
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I don't think the objection to small shot is that the bad guys would enjoy getting hit with it, just that they wouldn't stand and wait for another....instead they'd reach you and do you in before you got off a second shot...and then die later.
I really don't know the terminal ballistics of small shot on humans at SD ranges, so I don't know if they are right in their belief it would be ineffective...but without penetration, it is not going to do as good a job as a load that does.
It's a compromise between what will be most effective and reasonable concerns about common sense liability.
In the case of "lethal/ less lethal" I think worrying about law suits at the expense of effectiveness is just plain stupid.
But that is not a case of injuring or killing a, more or less, innocent bystander as this is.
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It's a compromise between what will be most effective and reasonable concerns about common sense liability.
In the case of "lethal/ less lethal" I think worrying about law suits at the expense of effectiveness is just plain stupid.
But that is not a case of injuring or killing a, more or less, innocent bystander as this is.
I agree. It all depends upon how much less effective the bird shot is. If it is 90% as effective as 00 while virtually eliminating the risk of dead neighbors, it is a good trade off. If, on the other hand it is only 20% effective, it becomes a tougher choice.
So, the assignment to SD Shot Shell manufactures is to come up with a load that approaches or exceeds the effectiveness of 00, while not being able to penetrate two layers of sheetrock.
Maybe something like those flat disks I've seen in ads for .410 pistols might do the trick.
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I agree. It all depends upon how much less effective the bird shot is. If it is 90% as effective as 00 while virtually eliminating the risk of dead neighbors, it is a good trade off. If, on the other hand it is only 20% effective, it becomes a tougher choice.
So, the assignment to SD Shot Shell manufactures is to come up with a load that approaches or exceeds the effectiveness of 00, while not being able to penetrate two layers of sheetrock.
Maybe something like those flat disks I've seen in ads for .410 pistols might do the trick.
Dimes used to be popular .
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Maybe slightly off topic, but here's a video showing the comparison between a 20 gauge and 12 gauge:
I live in a brick home, so over penetration is not as much of a concern for me. I use #1 BK for my 12 gauge load; sixteen 30 caliber pellets is bound to hurt.
This is posted elsewhere on this forum but try these podcasts from Mas Ayoob too:
http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/02/01/017a-homing-in-on-the-defensive-shotgun/
http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/02/22/017b-homing-in-on-the-defensive-shotgun/
Best of Luck!
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Maybe slightly off topic, but here's a video showing the comparison between a 20 gauge and 12 gauge:
I live in a brick home, so over penetration is not as much of a concern for me. I use #1 BK for my 12 gauge load; sixteen 30 caliber pellets is bound to hurt.
This is posted elsewhere on this forum but try these podcasts from Mas Ayoob too:
http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/02/01/017a-homing-in-on-the-defensive-shotgun/
http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/02/22/017b-homing-in-on-the-defensive-shotgun/
Best of Luck!
Might want to cross post that to the thread where "Tstsand" was asking about the shotgun for HD.
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I have fired thousands of 12 Ga. Trap and Skeet loads. In Trap you are limited to 1, 1/8th ounce of shot no larger than 7 1/2, and a velocity no higher than 1,200 FPS, or else you face disqualification. I cannot believe anyone thinks that load is not lethal in the confines of an average suburban home. If anyone has any doubt shoot a 2 X 4 at 10 feet with one and it will change your mind rapidly.
Yes, at 45 yards you'll look like Dick Cheney's buddy. But from across a bedroom forget it. Talk to any trauma surgeon and they'll tell you shotgun blasts are the hardest for a victim to recover from because of the carnage they cause. Don't underestimate bird shot at close range. An ounce of lead at 1,200 FPS doesn't spread out much across a living room.
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I once assisted a lawyer on a criminal case, where the defendant shot a guy from a distance of about 3 feet dead center in the chest with a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot. The guy lived and testified against the defendant in court. I don't remember the details of what he was wearing, what size shot was used, etc. However, from that day on, I always kept my defense shotguns loaded with buckshot.
I'm not sure I agree with the concept of advancing on a bad guy, firing birdshot. You'd better be really good at counter-disarm techniques, because I think there will be a hand to hand fight over that shotgun if bad guy doesn't go down right away.
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The question is not how much damage is done or how extensive the recovery.
The question is whether bird shot at SD ranges is a reliable fight stopper.
It would seem that the more extensive the damage, the more likely the fight would stop, but that might not be true.
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The question is not how much damage is done or how extensive the recovery.
The question is whether bird shot at SD ranges is a reliable fight stopper.
It would seem that the more extensive the damage, the more likely the fight would stop, but that might not be true.
BG's are sporting body armor and also a consideration, (as previously posted and discussed)....Bird shot won't crack his sternum, or break a rib if he's "suited" up,....than of course, one aims higher, or groin, hip area....or keep firing than beat him with it...have back up pistol.
Point being I want him down,...like not writhing on the floor, bleeding, and screaming, but real quiet, real still, with some gurgling. I'll be on the phone with 911, and need him quiet...
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There's a REASON that bird shot is called "bird shot."
There's a REASON that buck shot is called "buck shot."
Birds are tiny little animals with thin skin and thin, fragile, hollow bones.
BUCKS on the other hand are about the size of a human, and skin about the same thickness and strength. Additionally, their bones are surprisingly similar to ours in density and toughness, especially their ribs.
In hunting birds, one wishes to kill the bird in-flight without blowing it into pink mist. A few tiny pellets are usually sufficient, and a larger pattern makes it easier to hit flying birds.
Hunting BUCKS on the other hand requires much more penetration - it must not only go through skin and bones but must penetrate deeply enough to damage arteries or the spine - thus stopping the animal from running away.
A wounded buck that escapes and dies later of his wounds or MUCH LATER of infection is no good - we need to drop him where he stands if possible - turn him off like a light-switch.
It should be obvious by now that HUMANS are much more like BUCKS, and bear little resemblance to BIRDS.
If your opponent is built like a bird, I guess birdshot would be an option - but since he's built like a Buck, buck-shot or slugs are the **ONLY** viable option!
Those who think that an ounce of lead is an ounce of lead are mistaken or deluded.
THINK.
Even at HD distances, with minimal spread, you're still shooting little tiny things with birdshot - and they just don't penetrate like buck. There are countless examples of people who were shot point-blank with birdshot and lived. The odds are much, much worse for anyone hit with buck!
If you value the things you're supposedly protecting - YOUR life and those of your FAMILY - USE BUCK!
If you value the PERP'S life above those, then feel free to use birdshot! Why take a chance on really hurting him~!
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THINK.
Even at HD distances, with minimal spread, you're still shooting little tiny things with birdshot - and they just don't penetrate like buck. There are countless examples of people who were shot point-blank with birdshot and lived. The odds are much, much worse for anyone hit with buck!
If you value the things you're supposedly protecting - YOUR life and those of your FAMILY - USE BUCK!
If you value the PERP'S life above those, then feel free to use birdshot! Why take a chance on really hurting him~!
If you read the whole thread you would understand that the lack of over penetration is the whole point.
If you don't have neighbors with in 50 yards don't be a wimp with buckshot, use a slug, or a .44 mag.
If, like the majority of the US population, you live within 50 ft of another house you want something different.