The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: kilopaparomeo on April 05, 2008, 01:34:36 PM
-
First, I'll say that I'm really intrigued by the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC rounds. While I am a HUGE lover of the 7.62 NATO and also shoot the 5.56 NATO in competition, the idea of a intermediate round is appealing to me for CQB, hunting and long range work.
Personally I have a hard time getting so worked up like many do over the 6.5G vs 6.8 SPC...frankly I consider them to both be good rounds on paper. The 6.8 seems to have the edge in shots at 300 yards and under, the 6.5 has the edge at longer ranges. Both do very adequate jobs where the other excels. Since I have an interest in a new round mostly for long range and hunting, and because I already have a love affair with the 6.5x55mm, and because I like being different, I decided to give the 6.5 Grendel a try first. If I don't like it, I'll sell everything and move over to the 6.8 SPC. As a side note, it appears to me that the 6.8 SPC is getting a bit more traction in the market, probably because Remington is pushing it and Alexander Arms really need to open up the licensing of their product.
In case you haven't seen them next to each other, here's a pic of a 5.56x45mm (77 gr SMK) next to a 6.5 Grendel (123 gr SMK) next to a 7.62x51 mm (168 SMK).
(http://i28.tinypic.com/30tnbrn.jpg)
Here's a bullet comparison for you. .223 55 gr surplus next to a .223 77 gr SMK next to a 6.5mm 123 gr SMK next to a .308 168 gr SMK.
(http://i27.tinypic.com/3305ua0.jpg)
I ordered an Alexander Arms 24" Overwatch upper from Midway and mounted it on a DPMS lower. I have a Magpul PRS stock on it, a DPMS target grip and a Jard adjustable 3 lb single stage trigger mounted. The optic is a Haako 4.5-16x42 mm illuminated reticle on Burris Tactical rings. This scope needs to be mounted far forward so I have an extended rail on order...in the mean time, I'm making do with a raised rail mounted forward. I currently have a cheap bipod on it until my Harris arrives
First the upper. Metal work is good and the finish is even. I don't care for the aesthetics of the carbon fiber free float tube but it is very rigid. The muzzle is crowned and threaded for a muzzle device, but unfortunately it is an unusual thread pitch and Alexander doesn't make a thread protector cap from what I can see.
The PRS stock is very comfortable. I like the Jard trigger but it "rolls" a little too much for me in letoff. I like a bit more glass rod break that that...maybe I've been shooting my 2-stage NM trigger to much. I does have a very light break, though.
(http://i29.tinypic.com/foj5s7.jpg)
I only had a chance to put together 5 loads using VARGET. I've had great luck with that powder in .223. In general, this doesn't seem to be a flexible powder for this rifle and I need to try a different burn rate. While I had a few good groups (under 1MOA) there was pretty wide variation as I moved in 1 grain increments. I dodn't futz with the OAL yet...I'll wait until I find a promising powder for that. All were loaded with 123 gr SMK at 2.260" OAL and Remington SR primers. Conditions were 50 deg F with light and variable winds from behind. 100 yard range. Bipod with bunny ear bag in the rear. Next powder to try is Accurate 2520.
Here's the best target of the day at 100 yards. 5 shots in 0.65"...best three in 0.40"
(http://i28.tinypic.com/2uqhqiw.jpg)
-
When one of my compadres on this site (sorry, don't remember who) mentioned the 6.5, I started researching a little more. I got the impression that AA had a lock on things, and man the people on the 6.5 boards are weird! They all have played off the Grendel name for the cartridge and as a result have oddball names. Very geeky.
Glad to hear about the traction. I have evaluated my wants, and I am thinking more power in shorter ranges is what I am looking for, so the 6.8 is probably the way to go. Too bad the ammo is so doggone high, even compared to the Grendel.
Added: PS: I really like the .308 best myself, need to get a DSA FAL.
-
Here's what I don't understand. (and yes, I'm an old foggy ;) )
The Grendel is a short fat round. Looks to be the same case diameter as the .308. So....you are not gonna get more in a mag so why reinvent the wheel?
I'm one of those that think the 30-06 was invented by God as the perfect rifle round. The .308 I can somewhat understand as there is less kick and just as good ballistics though you trade off variety. Very efficient military round (308).
Can't believe there is all that much difference in weight between 100 rounds of .308 and 100 rounds of Grendel and the diff will be more than covered by performance.
My .02.
-
Here's what I don't understand. (and yes, I'm an old foggy ;) )
The Grendel is a short fat round. Looks to be the same case diameter as the .308. So....you are not gonna get more in a mag so why reinvent the wheel?
I'm one of those that think the 30-06 was invented by God as the perfect rifle round. The .308 I can somewhat understand as there is less kick and just as good ballistics though you trade off variety. Very efficient military round (308).
Can't believe there is all that much difference in weight between 100 rounds of .308 and 100 rounds of Grendel and the diff will be more than covered by performance.
My .02.
The Grendel bullet is lighter, 120 gr as I recall (probably wrong), but incredibly skinny and long. Supposedly the reason it is better at longer ranges. The reason for the Grendel is not just more ammo, although that's part of it with the smaller cases and shorter cartridges, same as the 5.56, but supposedly it has better performance at longer ranges, to 600 yards. Kind of a win-win in someone's eyes. The US Military ain't buying it though, from the looks of things. Too much invested in the 5.56.
Boy, I bet it sucked to be a general when the troops started demanding M-14s back after Somalia and the first Sand Box, then Afghanistan. Kinda put a crimp in the good PR for the M-4, especially the part where bad guys got his multiple times with the M-16/M-4 and kept coming. The M-14 kinda takes that problem away.
I am such a .308 bigot! ;D
-
We were screaming for a decent round (M14) when I was in the jungle. Damn near 50 years later and nothing has changed!
-
The decision makers weren't in the jungle. Sort of like Congress.
Mac.
-
The decision makers weren't in the jungle. Sort of like Congress.
Mac.
They aren't in Iraq either. and Neither are thier Kids
-
Here's what I don't understand. (and yes, I'm an old foggy ;) )
The Grendel is a short fat round. Looks to be the same case diameter as the .308. So....you are not gonna get more in a mag so why reinvent the wheel?
6.5 Grendel rounds will fit in an AR magazine and therefore through an AR mag well. So, you get a new upper, swap out 223, attach 6.5 G upper, and slot in 6.5 G magazines and you're ready to shoot. So, basically, you don't need a new lower as you would to fire .308. It's the same reason people are trying 6.8SPC- it also fits through a regular AR lower.
short action vs long action in bolt rifles.
-
The 6.8 spc, if I'm correct, was partially designed by sof because they wanted a heavier bullet for CQB but they didn't want it to go as slow as the 7.62x39. The Grendel sounds like it was made with precision in mind because of its accuracy at longer ranges, sounds like a Grendel AR would make a great high capacity urban sniper rifle with some really hot rounds or for precision rifle competition. That's what it sounds like to me from my observations.
-
There are MORE than one or two Congressmen that have kids serving in the military(overseas), just because you want it to be true doesn't mean it is.
-
Duncan Hunter's son is a Marine and serving in the sandbox and the Congressman served in Vietnam in the Special Forces. In fact I know there are a few Iraq veterans that are running for federal office on both sides of the aisle and get this, they're helping each other out financially through an organization. I mean Republicans and Democrats providing some assistance for each other in an election? Try telling that to the party heads in Washington. I have to say we have the most honorable serving our country. God bless 'em.
-
They aren't in Iraq either. and Neither are thier Kids
You can't spout anti-war blather here without facts.
More oil for radical Islamicist blood in my name.
-
I don't think that's where things were going, sounded more anti politician to me........
...Say, how's that Grendel AR? :-X
-
There are MORE than one or two Congressmen that have kids serving in the military(overseas), just because you want it to be true doesn't mean it is.
"More than one or two" out of 545( Congress, Senate, Cabnet etc) isn't very impressive.
You can't spout anti-war blather here without facts.
More oil for radical Islamicist blood in my name.
Who said anything about anti war ? I'm all in favor of the war, it's self rightuos politicians I'm against. You need to read the comment in the context of previous posts or it doesn't even make sense.
The fact that this is only your 11th post tells me you probably have not read some of my other posts that illustrate my opinion more fully.
-
:-\
Before you guys derailed this thread with politics, I was learning a lot of stuff I didn't know about 6.x rifles in ARs. In fact, now I'm really intrigued by them. I found out a shop just up the road from me stocks and sells tons and tons of AR parts at reasonable prices. This discovery will do terrible things to my wallet. :-\ I was planning on buying a lower receiver next weekend. But you guys have me intrigued on what kind of upper to build. The info about the 6.x rounds fitting through standard AR magwells was a revelation to me.
Thanks for the excellent range report and subsequent info.
-
6.5 Grendel rounds will fit in an AR magazine and therefore through an AR mag well. So, you get a new upper, swap out 223, attach 6.5 G upper, and slot in 6.5 G magazines and you're ready to shoot. So, basically, you don't need a new lower as you would to fire .308. It's the same reason people are trying 6.8SPC- it also fits through a regular AR lower.
short action vs long action in bolt rifles.
Sounds like a winner, and the group in the photo says accuracy is good. My major reservation with new cartridges is usually that the ammo supply is limited and spare parts are available only from one manufacturer.
Based on Overloads post the only thing REALLY differant on this is the barrel its self. With the tons of AR parts available it would seem to solve one problem, and reloading solves the other.
-
Based on Overloads post the only thing REALLY differant on this is the barrel its self. With the tons of AR parts available it would seem to solve one problem, and reloading solves the other.
That's what I came away with as well. Which is why I'm so intrigued.
-
That's what I came away with as well. Which is why I'm so intrigued.
I would be but I spent all my money on an AK :(
-
Based on Overloads post the only thing REALLY differant on this is the barrel its self. With the tons of AR parts available it would seem to solve one problem, and reloading solves the other.
That's what I came away with as well. Which is why I'm so intrigued.
There's a tad more to it than that. Yeah, the barrel is heavier and different twist, 1-10.5 to 1-12 for the 6.5, don't recall the ones for the 6.8. And, if I remember correctly, the bolt group is beefier to handle "more power!". Mags need to be different too, but as I don't have a 6.x yet, not sure exactly how. I seem to have seen one statement that only the follower needs to be different, although a 30-round AR mag will hold less of the 6.x.
As for the rest, classic M-16/M-4 furniture and other little goodies - rails, sights, etc.
-
There's a tad more to it than that. Yeah, the barrel is heavier and different twist, 1-10.5 to 1-12 for the 6.5, don't recall the ones for the 6.8. And, if I remember correctly, the bolt group is beefier to handle "more power!". Mags need to be different too, but as I don't have a 6.x yet, not sure exactly how. I seem to have seen one statement that only the follower needs to be different, although a 30-round AR mag will hold less of the 6.x.
As for the rest, classic M-16/M-4 furniture and other little goodies - rails, sights, etc.
I did not think of that but it makes sense that the bolt and carrier would also need to be larger, if only to locate the extractor far enough from the firing pin to grasp the larger diameter cartridge.
-
Only part differences are the bolt itself (not the carrier), barrel and magazines...but the only diff in the mags is the follower and the feed lip angles.
You can retrofit a standard AR to one of the 6.x cartridges by swapping out these parts.
I am reloading nearly all my cartridges (over 19 calibers being reloaded now) so factory ammo availability doesn't matter to me.
As for recoil, I found it to be negligibily more than the .223...no where near the 308 level of recoil. It is LOUD though even out of a 24" barrel. Lots of pressure there I guess.
-
Doesn't the clearance required for the over size bolt create slop in the travel of the normal size carrier? And why does the mag FOLLOWER make a differance ? Some one else mentioned that to, I thought any kind of lip or protrusion would be enough to catch the bolt and allow the hold open to engage.
-
The bolt isn't larger, just the bolt face.
Follower and feed lip geometry is different because the cartridge shape is different. While we (at least I) tend to think of magazines as pretty generic things, there is actually a lot of physics, geometry and engineering in them to get a cartridge to feed properly.
-
The bolt isn't larger, just the bolt face.
Follower and feed lip geometry is different because the cartridge shape is different. While we (at least I) tend to think of magazines as pretty generic things, there is actually a lot of physics, geometry and engineering in them to get a cartridge to feed properly.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
-
I shot a 6.8 AR (LWRC carbine) a few days ago, back to back with a .223 AR and a M1A (.308). Recoil was 'crackier' than a regular .223. It reminds me exactly of 9mm vs .40S&W vs .45ACP. The M1A was more of a 'thud' recoil, the .223 was a 'snap'. As to the LWRC, I have nothing but praise: well made, great components, comfortable, and I love the round ears on the front folding sight (Troy) as they helped me center the sight picture and repeat my cheek meld to the stock.
The owner of the 6.8 was surprised that my 223 mags went right into his 6.8, and vice versa. We'd both marked our magazines so we had no problems, but I could EASILY see the wrong magazine being inserted if they were mixed.
A tip for everyone: do NOT put a 10 round magazine into a FN FS2000. I am not happy with its performance at the range, as the 10 rounder got jammed in HARD. Also, I've been having feed problems with it. Specifically, it won't strip a new round out of the magazine sometimes. On the other hand, we both liked the Trijicon ACOG I had mounted on it.
Back to the topic, both 6.8SPC and 6.5 Grendel will work with a standard AR lower. Yes, both require a different barrel, bolt, and maybe some other stuff (gas system mod?), as well as modified 223 AR magazines. I would just buy a whole new upper designed for the bigger round then try to upgrade just some of the parts. Then, you can swap calibers back and forth whenever you want. Doing this would almost being like using 38 special and 357 magnum in the same revolver. You can practice with (inexpensive) 223, and then swap to the bigger round for home defense or whatever.
-
I'd recommend anyone who has an interest in the 6.5 Grendel go to the Alexander Arms website and learn about the reasons for the cartridge's existence and its evolution. 6.5mm has never been a popular bullet size in the USA. Its big advantage is having a very high ballistic coefficient, which makes it a very efficient long-range cartridge. It would not be my first choice for a CQB round: there are a number of rounds that fire through a standard AR platform with better CQB performance than the 6.5 Grendel.
The 123-grain 6.5 Grendel has a muzzle velocity of only around 2500-2700 fps (give or take) out of a 20" AR barrel. So what's the big deal? With its high ballistic coefficient, it's still supersonic at 1000 yards and shoots flatter than a .308 168-grain match-king at long ranges. You want to pop coyotes at 600 yards or shoot F Class out of an AR? This is your cartridge. And it seems most manufacturers of 6.5 Grendel rifles and uppers produce higher quality (and priced) equipment as standard - no ordinary "mil-spec" here. Les Baer guarantees 1/2 moa from his Ultimate Varminter; mine came with a test target that had two five-shot groups shot at 100 yards - you can cover each group with a dime!
Frankly, if you can pay the freight and want something special but somewhat limited in its applications, plus has a high WOW! factor, it's a fun direction to go. Just don't think it's something that it's not.