The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => Shooting Gallery on Outdoor Channel => Topic started by: Dakotaranger on February 23, 2012, 12:52:22 AM
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AWESOME Episode. It was definitely worth the wait. I would like to see you guys do a Little Bighorn episode.
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AWESOME Episode. It was definitely worth the wait. I would like to see you guys do a Little Bighorn episode.
+1
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AWESOME Episode. It was definitely worth the wait. I would like to see you guys do a Little Bighorn episode.
Yep.
And maybe in later seasons, have a segment or two here and there on the gunfighters and lawmen of the era and their equipment, and some of the more famous shootings.
Being in south Georgia, and growing up only some forty miles from the home of John "Doc" Holliday (and yes, I've visited the old house that is still in Valdosta) I have been a student of the man for a while. I am also fortunate to have in my county, an author, teacher, and historian by the name of Dr. Gary Roberts.....who happens to have written one of the most authoritative books on Holliday extant.
Segments on individuals like Earp, Holliday, Hickok, Custer, Tillman, Bass Reeves....etc would be most welcome, IMHO. Now that Cowboys is out of the line-up, maybe you could fit small doses into other places.
As always, MB and crew, you set the standard.
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Yep.
And maybe in later seasons, have a segment or two here and there on the gunfighters and lawmen of the era and their equipment, and some of the more famous shootings.
Being in south Georgia, and growing up only some forty miles from the home of John "Doc" Holliday (and yes, I've visited the old house that is still in Valdosta) I have been a student of the man for a while. I am also fortunate to have in my county, an author, teacher, and historian by the name of Dr. Gary Roberts.....who happens to have written one of the most authoritative books on Holliday extant.
Segments on individuals like Earp, Holliday, Hickok, Custer, Tillman, Bass Reeves....etc would be most welcome, IMHO. Now that Cowboys is out of the line-up, maybe you could fit small doses into other places.
As always, MB and crew, you set the standard.
Might not be such a good idea, most, if not all of them were a bunch of obnoxious drunks, not exactly "role models".
In fact, some of the outlaws were better people.
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Most were outlaws!
Wyatt Earp is the example that has been known for years. Towns hired, and courts appointed outlaws to enforce the law, because they understood the element, knew how to handle it, and had the nerve to do it.
Just because it has a dark side does not mean we should hide or ignore it.
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By the way:
I had Shooting Gallery on in the office in the afternoon and caught bits and pieces; I was going to catch it in the early evening, but got a phone call; and I did not have the stamina to stay up till 2am to watch it. However, the bits and pieces I saw looked very well done, and was doing a great job of explaining the "Hollywood" vs. history stories.
I look forward to this one coming around again (Hint, Hint, Outdoor Channel - You can rerun these programs all year round and even in coming years), and to seeing more of the same.
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Most were outlaws!
Wyatt Earp is the example that has been known for years. Towns hired, and courts appointed outlaws to enforce the law, because they understood the element, knew how to handle it, and had the nerve to do it.
Just because it has a dark side does not mean we should hide or ignore it.
Depends on whether you want to "perpetuate the myth", or disillusion a whole generation, by showing just what a bunch of self important scum bags these people actually were.
The law men were all drunks, most like the Earp's got famous enforcing some form of "No guns in town" ordinance.
After fighting for 40 years to regain the right to concealed carry and self defense, do we really want to glorify the original Brady bunch ?
Then of course there was the whole issue of them being paid based on the fines they collected, that was a very lucrative shake down.
Matt Dillon was a much better role model, do you actually want to show off alcoholic extortionists as "the American Ideal" ?
None of the real ones "rode off into the sunset, they were more likely to stagger back into the bar.
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Might not be such a good idea, most, if not all of them were a bunch of obnoxious drunks, not exactly "role models".
In fact, some of the outlaws were better people.
I was leaning more on their choices of equipment more than a psychological profile.
Role model or not, if a man was good with a gun, and/or could take care of himself in a fight, there could be something to learn.
Lawman/hoodlum/hero/thug.....hmmm...don't sound much different than some of the folks wearing badges today.
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Tom,
Matt Dillon and the Lone Ranger were fictitious characters. We can use them as a way of showing and teaching proper life choices, but they were not real people. Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill, Calamity Jane, Buffalo Bill, and others were real. We need to also show them for what they were. Some were good, some were bad, some used questionable tactics (the end justifies the means), but they are what they are. They are also a part of history, and if we do not remember and learn from our history we will never move forward.
What Hollywood does is glorify and show how they saved society. What shows like Shooting Gallery do is give the full picture. The same can be said for documentaries. We need to learn the truth, and there is nothing wrong with some entertainment if it is kept in focus as being entertainment.
Actually, a movie like Tombstone shows the dangers of disarming a population and leaving the wrong group armed and in charge. We just need to remove the blinders from our own eyes that we accuse others of being burdened with. If you see a Brady Campaign infomercial in the movie Tombstone you have been conditioned to think that way ... Damn, I feel like I'm lecturing TAB instead of Bogan >:(
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The point I'm going for is that if you are going to go into the real people it means warts and all.
An accurate look at Mother Teresa could make her look like a self promoting SOB.
And as to the Brady bunch, they have in fact tried to argue that the "No guns in town" ordinances set the precedent for their agenda.
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The point I'm going for is that if you are going to go into the real people it means warts and all.
An accurate look at Mother Teresa could make her look like a self promoting SOB.
And as to the Brady bunch, they have in fact tried to argue that the "No guns in town" ordinances set the precedent for their agenda.
Great! Let them do it again with an educated public that understands everything that both drove the gun bans and the consequences the bans brought on.
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Depends on whether you want to "perpetuate the myth", or disillusion a whole generation, by showing just what a bunch of self important scum bags these people actually were.
The law men were all drunks, most like the Earp's got famous enforcing some form of "No guns in town" ordinance.
After fighting for 40 years to regain the right to concealed carry and self defense, do we really want to glorify the original Brady bunch ?
Then of course there was the whole issue of them being paid based on the fines they collected, that was a very lucrative shake down.
Matt Dillon was a much better role model, do you actually want to show off alcoholic extortionists as "the American Ideal" ?
None of the real ones "rode off into the sunset, they were more likely to stagger back into the bar.
Tom, you are way off base here. Did they drink? Yeah. Were they drunks? Not hardly, they would have been dead if they were drunks.
Tilghman was a Town Marshal in his 70s when he was killed by a drunk Revenue Agent. The agent was drunk, not Tilghman.
Holliday was probably the closest to an alcoholic, but then he was a lunger, so the drinking probably took the edge off the pain of the disease.
Custer was foolhardy and headstrong, not drunk at the Little Big Horn. He was drunk on duty earlier in his career, and went AWOL to see his wife - hardy atypical in the Army in those days. Hell, Sickles killed a man in DC for diddling Sickles' wife, and got promoted - and acquitted. There is no indication that Custer was a drunkard after that earlier episode.
Bass Reeves was damn near a teetotaler IIRC. He was cold, methodical and one of the best man-trackers and Marshals in the west.
History is about the reality, both as a positive role model for their actions, and as warnings against their failings.
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Ok, guess I should have gone into why I liked it 1. A different perspective, most historians know nothing about firearms or law enforcement 2. Discussed the firearms that were present 3. What could have been done different 4. I'm a cowpoke at heart and this is the archatypal (yeah I know spelling) gunfight.
I know that the Earps and Holiday weren't saints, alot has been written about it, talked about, ect. The show was about the gunfight nothing more. I'm not taking last night's episode as the authoratavite documentary on the Earps just a piece of the puzzle that gets little or no coverage because the general lack of knowledge of firearms.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and we don't have to like all aspects of someone's character to gain from what their life entailed.
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Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and we don't have to like all aspects of someone's character to gain from what their life entailed.
I'd smoke a cigar to that.......if I still smoked cigars.......... ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'd smoke a cigar to that.......if I still smoked cigars.......... ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hahaha I don't smoke those too often either.
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ME TOO!
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Got to be fast, and one of the greatest movie scenes of all time....
"I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bear."......Your no Daisy.....
Classic.....
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Got to be fast, and one of the greatest movie scenes of all time....
"I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bear."......Your no Daisy.....
Classic.....
Doc is one of my favorite movie characters, Kilmer was on his game in this movie...................."say when"
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Doc is one of my favorite movie characters, Kilmer was on his game in this movie...................."say when"
Amen to that!
The scene where Doc was in bed at the King Ranch still gives me goose bumps. IIRC, John Milius was one of the writers on this movie, and that would explain the dialogue between Wyatt and Doc.
Wyatt: What drives a man like Ringo, Doc?
Doc: He's trying to fill a deep dark empty hole inside of himself, and no amount of killing or pain can ever fill it.
You can tell Doc is speaking of what he knows only too well about himself. BTW, this scene resonates with me so much because I have come to learn that it's a hole we all have in varying sizes and depths, and some try to fill it with sex, or pornography, or gambling or cigarettes or drugs or some other form of addiction.
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Amen to that!
The scene where Doc was in bed at the King Ranch still gives me goose bumps. IIRC, John Milius was one of the writers on this movie, and that would explain the dialogue between Wyatt and Doc.
Wyatt: What drives a man like Ringo, Doc?
Doc: He's trying to fill a deep dark empty hole inside of himself, and no amount of killing or pain can ever fill it.
You can tell Doc is speaking of what he knows only too well about himself. BTW, this scene resonates with me so much because I have come to learn that it's a hole we all have in varying sizes and depths, and some try to fill it with sex, or pornography, or gambling or cigarettes or drugs or some other form of addiction.
Yep
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Johnny Ringo is an interesting character.
His death remains one of the mysteries of the old West
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ringo
Reputation
Louis L'Amour wrote that he had found nothing in Old West history to commend John Ringo as a particularly noteworthy "badman". According to L'Amour, Ringo was a surly, bad-tempered man who was worse when he was drinking, and that his main claim to fame was shooting the unarmed Louis Hancock in an Arizona territory saloon in 1879 for ordering beer after Ringo told him to order whiskey. L'Amour wrote that he did not understand how Ringo earned such a strong reputation as a "bad man" in legend. Other authors have concluded that perhaps Ringo's memorable name, coupled with his confrontations with the canonically "good" Earp brothers, contributed to his latter-day reputation.
Death in Turkey Creek Canyon
On July 14, 1882, Johnny Ringo was found dead in the crotch of a large tree in West Turkey Creek Valley, near Chiricahua Peak, with a bullet hole in his right temple and an exit wound at the back of his head.
A single shot had been heard by a neighbor late in the evening the day before on July 13. The property owner found Ringo sitting on the low-leaning trunk and fork of a large tree by the river (a fallen trunk next to which Ringo is now buried). Ringo's revolver had one round expended and was found hanging by one finger in his hand. His feet were wrapped in pieces of his undershirt. His horse was found two weeks later, Ringo's boots tied to the saddle of his horse, a common method to keep scorpions out of boots. After an inquest, the coroner found that death had been caused by a single shot through the head, and Ringo's death was officially ruled a suicide.
Johnny Ringo is buried close to where his body was found in West Turkey Creek Canyon (31°51′49″N 109°20′16″W) at the base of the tree in which he was found, which fell around 2010. The grave is located on private land and is not publicly accessible.
[edit] Theories of Ringo's death
Many people have been put forth as Ringo's murderer, including Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, O'Rourke, and Buckskin Frank Leslie.
The book, I Married Wyatt Earp, supposedly written by Josephine Marcus Earp, reported that Wyatt Earp and Holliday returned to Arizona to find and kill Ringo. Edited by Glen Boyer, the book claims that Holliday killed Ringo with a rifle shot at a distance, contradicting the coroner's ruling that Ringo's death was a suicide. However, Boyer's book has been discredited as a fraud and a hoax[10] that cannot be relied on.[11]:154 In response to criticism about the book's authenticity, Boyer said the book was not really a first-person account, that he had interpreted Wyatt Earp in Josephine's voice, and admitted that he couldn't produce any documents to vindicate his methods.[12] Holliday was fighting a court case in Colorado at the time of Ringo's death. Official records of the District Court of Pueblo County, Colorado indicate that both Doc and his attorney appeared in court there on July 11, 14, and 18, 1882, which, if true, would make it impossible for Holliday to have killed Ringo. Author Karen Holliday Tanner, in Doc Holliday, A Family Portrait, speculated that Doc may not have been in Pueblo at the time of the court date, citing a writ of habeas corpus issued for him in court on July 11. She believes that only his attorney may have appeared on his behalf that day, in spite of the wording of a court record that indicated he may have appeared in person—in propria persona or "in his own person". She cites this as standard legal filler text that does necessarily prove the person was present. There is no doubt that Holliday arrived in Salida, Colorado on July 7 as reported in a town newspaper. This is 500 miles (800 km) from the site of Ringo's death, six days before the shooting.
One theory that supports the coroner's finding that Ringo committed suicide is that a few weeks before Ringo's death, a large fire in Tombstone had wiped out most of the downtown area. The silver mines were producing less, and demand for beef was down. Many of Ringo's friends were gone, while his way of life was quickly becoming a thing of the past. Ringo was depressed after being rejected by his remaining family members in California and the recent deaths of his outlaw friends. Stoked by a period of binge drinking, Ringo was preparing to camp in an isolated spot, far from the city. He tied his boots to his saddle, a common practice in Arizona to keep scorpions out of them, but the horse got loose from his picket and ran off. Ringo tied pieces of his undershirt to his feet to protect them (these were found on his body and noted by the inquest), and crawled into the fork of a large tree to spend the night. As evening came on, despondent over his overall state, Ringo shot himself.[citation needed]
Fred Dodge, a Wells, Fargo & Co. undercover agent, attributed Ringo's killing to Mike O'Rourke. A gambler, O'Rourke had been arrested for murdering Henry Schneider. Curly Bill Brocius and John Ringo encouraged talk of a lynching and led other men who pursued the wagon carrying O'Rourke. McKelvey got to the outskirts of Tombstone and the Last Chance Saloon just ahead of the mob where he was met by Deputy U.S. Marshal Virgil Earp,[13] and was escorted to jail in Tucson, where escaped. He held onto a burning rage toward Ringo and Curly Bill, and according to a conversation Dodge had with Frank Leslie, O'Rourke learned in July, 1882 that Ringo and Buckskin Frank Leslie were camping in the Turkey Creek Canyon area. O'Rourke knew that Ringo had been drinking heavily for the last week and made camp in the same area. On July 14 allegedly found Ringo sleeping off his liquor and killed him, arranging the body to look like a suicide.[13] The story had enough credibility that many believed, including Ringo's close friend Pony Diehl, it to be true.[13] O'Rourke was killed shortly after being caught cheating at cards.[citation needed]
Others[who?] believe Buckskin Frank Leslie killed Ringo. Leslie found Ringo drunk and asleep at a tree. Hoping to curry favor with Earp supporters in office, he shot Ringo through the head. Billy Claiborne believed Leslie killed Ringo, and it was said that his fatal shootout with Leslie was due to this fact. However, in reality Claiborne was demanding that Leslie refer to him as "Billy the Kid", and when Leslie refused Claiborne challenged him. Claiborne was shot through the right side, the bullet exiting out his back, and died hours later. His last words were supposedly "Frank Leslie killed John Ringo. I saw him do it", another claim that has no evidence to support it