The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on February 28, 2012, 01:34:52 PM
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From Sheriff Jim Wilson:
When you buy from a small mom or pop
business, you are not helping a CEO
Buy a third vacation home.
You are helping a little girl get dance
lessons, a little boy get his team jersey,
a mom or dad put food on the table, a
family pay a mortgage, or a student pay
for college.
Our customers are our shareholders and
they are the ones we strive to make happy.
Thank you for supporting Small Businesses!
Author unknown
Might I also add that it is small main street businesses that give to the local food shelf with more than money - they give time, material and facilities; they are the ones that hire the person that needs a hand up when they really don't need any more employees; "mom & pop" are the ones that will fund a scholarship, pay for a trip to camp, and cover a hospital bill; and the local business is the organization that pays state and local taxes right along with the rest of us to provide the local services we all use.
I could go on and on, but it is my local business owner that sits beside me in the coffee shop, at the high school ball game or concert, on the fishing pier, and in church.
Consider all of this the next time you pull into the parking lot to support Mr. Walton's family!
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So true, and so easy to forget when you're out trying to get things done on the money at hand. Small business is the American way.
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You have to remember that works both ways. The big oil companies and auto manufacturers, along with Wal-Mart have shareholders that are every day Americans. Many of them are retired and depend on their investments for day to day living expenses. You don't have to be a millionaire to own stock. Many Americans invest through 401-K plans where they work. So these people benefit from big corporations doing well. They also get hurt when they don't. Proof of that is how many retirees were forced back into the work force after the Bear Sterns / Lehman Brothers collapse. If you own 1 share of Exxon / Mobil you will suffer if it goes down. Anyone in this country can invest in stocks. It's not good for anyone when these large companies take a hit.
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Also don't forget the large business that started as a small mom/pop affairs. Are we to punish them for providing just because they became very good at what they did?
MidwayUSA comes to mind.
Don't get me wrong, I value and try to patronize my local businesses. I enjoy being able to handle and inspect products before I buy them. I like the instant gratification of buying it now and taking it home. And I like being able to talk to people who know the in's and out's of the products. But I also value a good price and a wide selection.
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You have to remember that works both ways. The big oil companies and auto manufacturers, along with Wal-Mart have shareholders that are every day Americans. Many of them are retired and depend on their investments for day to day living expenses. You don't have to be a millionaire to own stock. Many Americans invest through 401-K plans where they work. So these people benefit from big corporations doing well. They also get hurt when they don't. Proof of that is how many retirees were forced back into the work force after the Bear Sterns / Lehman Brothers collapse. If you own 1 share of Exxon / Mobil you will suffer if it goes down. Anyone in this country can invest in stocks. It's not good for anyone when these large companies take a hit.
For the vast majority owning stocks is not "making a living". Remember the cardinal rule? "Don't invest more than you are willing to lose".
It's true that the little guy owns a lot of stock. It is also true though, that if Exxon Mobil has a bad day (which, by the way, hasn't happened recently in any big way), the little guy with one share of stock will NOT suffer...he just won't get as large a return for a portion of that year. That scenario also didn't force retirees back into the workforce. The fraud, greed, and outright crime that ran rampant on Wall Street and collapsed our economy is what forced retirees back into the workforce. From what I've seen the large companies generally seem to have done pretty well.
I agree that a small business becoming a big business is also the American way, but at some point they cease being a business entity and take on a life of their own, at which point some are no longer socially responsible. For every 1000 people getting a $2 dividend from some of these companies there are 1000 people losing their small business or working in a lousy job because small businesses have been overwhelmed by a chain replacing their market share with cheap Chinese crap.
I'm a capitalist and have been a small businessman my entire working life, and I feel no sympathy at all for giant corporations. They do what they do and society deals with it. When you're neighbor's house is falling apart because they can't work enough or FOR enough to pay their bills and keep up their home, THAT is when you'll suffer.
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For every 1000 people getting a $2 dividend from some of these companies there are 1000 people losing their small business or working in a lousy job because small businesses have been overwhelmed by a chain replacing their market share with cheap Chinese crap.
True to a point but you must remember you will never have a business climate in a capitalistic society where small businesses do well, while big businesses suffer. The large corporations like K-Mart and Target have been forced to close hundreds of stores, and lay off thousands of workers in the process. Places like Circuit City have gone completely out of business, Wal-Mart is not thriving like it used to. These companies employ millions of middle class Americans. No one wins when big corporation suffer. The trickle down economic effect is far greater than when small businesses are disrupted by large ones.
And you can only blame Wall Street for just so much. They didn't put a gun to anyone's head and force them to buy overpriced homes with mortgages that were set to balloon in 5 years, to the point the buyers knew they would not be able to afford the payments. The people themselves created this housing mess by over borrowing money they had no way of paying back. Now banks and mortgage companies have gone back to solid lending principals that they never should have gotten away from in the first place. Many are now requiring 20% down with sterling credit. Few are able to qualify because most are tapped out with other credit.
The fact of the matter is this nation is becoming involved in a global market, while most of it's citizens spend too much, and save too little. As it does there will be less of a place for small businesses. I'm not saying that is good or bad, but simply the way it is. Pump prices are a good current example. Oil is a global market now. 20 years ago it wasn't. Because of that companies are shipping the reserves we currently have because of the mild winter, overseas. This creates high prices here. That won't be solved by "drill baby drill". If China and Indonesia are willing to pay more for gasoline than we are, guess where it is going to go? Our long term problem is not Chinese goods. It is the fact like it or not, we cannot compete with them. They pay their workers less, and produce more goods cheaper because of it. That is an economic condition mom and pop will never be able to compete with, and big businesses can.
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http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=16252.0
Small business works for me but I'm still trying to stay focused....
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We're trying to take some very complicated business conditions and condense them and it makes for an un-winnable argument either way.
But first off, Bill, I can't think of ONE example where big business has suffered at the hand of small business- it defies the laws of physics. The opposite is not true. WT Grant succumbed to K-Mart, and K-Mart and Target are being beat to death by Walmart- that is all head-to-head big business competition and has nothing to do with "Hurting big business". They failed or are failing because their business model is price and they can't compete with Walmart on price. Circuit City is dead because it was a poorly run company that took back any merchandise no matter what and lost about 20% of their stock out the back door. Best Buy is better run from better locations and hence, beat them to death. They were killed by other big businesses, not by the little guy or the "occupier".
Yes those companies employ thousands, but most at around minimum wage, as opposed to small business, which generates the MOST private sector jobs within the economy, and usually at a higher pay scale. The Mom and Pop sandwich shop might pay 4 or 5 people a living wage, but when the foreigner-owned Subway franchise moves in and beats them on price they close up and the community has lost a revenue producing ratable as well as 5 jobs. Those people can now only find work at Subway or Walmart for near minimum wage.
Big companies target small business sectors for annhialation- they want ALL of that business because that's how they'll increase revenue and dividends on their stock, and that is business, but it doesn't make it right or even desirable. Small business is an extension of the regular guy. Big corporate business is a self serving machine admittedly not all bad, but let's say generally without concience, unless by appearing to have one they can increase sales. The only natural enemy big business has is bigger business or the government. They have nothing to fear from small business, and do in fact, regularly dismember and feed on small businesses.
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J, your argument is not valid. Mom and Pop stores don't grow because they don't want to, a small company that WANTS to grow will find, or create, a niche and fill it.
Want some examples of small company owners that wanted to grow ?
How about Henry Ford, Rockefeller, Potterfield, or Sam Walton ?
Your talk about "the community" losing the income of 5or 6 employees is flawed as well, since the "community" gains the dividends payed to thousands, even 10's of thousands, of investors, like every single member of this forum who has a 401K, IRA, or other retirement account.
The stocks owned by banks ?
Where do you think they get the money to pay interest on your savings account ?
It is simply a fact of nature that many people start business', some grow huge like Debeer's, most only last the life time of the founder.
Are you going to blame Ford because buggy whip makers can't find jobs ?
The law of business is the same as any other survival situation, if you don't adapt to the changing circumstances you will fail.
Lets look at another aspect, at one time the big bitch was that K Mart was killing small business, they were even forcing out companies like Rich's, now Wal - Mart is cutting into their business, so what ?
It is an evolutionary process that has, and will continue to function as long as people engage in trade. Railroads, Steel, oil, communications, all have existed in a near monopoly form at one time or another, all have been changed by competition with some one who developed a different product, process or sales model. It's never going to change unless you want to adapt the Soviet style "planned economy" advocated by BO and the rest of the Socialists.
Russia showed us where that leads, stagnation and decline.
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I don't own stock or shop at Walmart or K-Mart much...my shitty little town is devoid of small business other than pizza, tacos, gyros, Chinese and Thai joints. Even the pizza is all Greek so it sucks for the most part! Funny thing though, there are at least six banks on the town square!
Between Home Depot, Target, K-Mart, Walmart and Lowes, there ain't much left here!
I frequented a small business for a ten dollar haircut this morning that I gave the guy a $10.00 tip! It was still about 20 bucks cheaper than what I was paying at a "salon" where an old friend (girl) worked!
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They failed or are failing because their business model is price and they can't compete with Walmart on price. Circuit City is dead because it was a poorly run company that took back any merchandise no matter what and lost about 20% of their stock out the back door. Best Buy is better run from better locations and hence, beat them to death. They were killed by other big businesses, not by the little guy or the "occupier".
I disagree. What's killing them is what's killing mom and pop. Not enough business to go around. These big ticket stores can only thrive in a good economy. That is something we haven't had in a while. Best Buy is in trouble without Circuit City. 10 years ago they were both doing fine. Same with Target, K-Mart and Wal-Mart. They were expanding, not closing. I'll all but guarantee you the same thing is going to happen to Home Depot and Lowe's. There are almost a dozen of them within 15 minutes of my home. There is no way this economy will continue to generate enough business for all of them to stay open. Imagine their electric bill in the Summer, or their heating bills in the Winter? Not to mention people can barely pay their mortgages. Forget about remodeling. I've got a Home Depot right down the street. Everytime I go in there the place is empty.
We've had a Sportsmans Warehouse close up 10 minutes from here. They couldn't move enough merchandise to keep the doors open. When they opened it they were packed. I'm seeing a big drop off at Cabela's. Guns remain on the rack for weeks. Just a few years ago they wouldn't last a day. No matter how you look at it, this country is tapped out, pure and simple. These big box stores are going to continue to decline. They learned the same thing these home owners did. Too much too fast is never a good thing.
Throughout the 90's and into this past decade business over expanded, and people overspent. It has all come to a crashing halt. Even Blackberry is going broke. This is how it used to be. People worried about the necessities first, the frills later. They're going back to that because they are being economically forced to. People can no longer buy everything they see.
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Tom, I'm not suggesting Socialism and Bill, I'm not saying that the economy isn't hurting businesses as a whole. What I AM saying is that if big biz eats up little biz, we lose because little biz is a big part of our economy. I'm also saying that big biz is not and never will be threatened by small biz. The thread started out because someone suggested that you shop at local small business as much as you can and I believe that's a good thing. Is that going to hurt Walmart? Hells no, it's not going to hurt Walmart. People will still dress up in drag and put on their spandex and go to Walmart. You simply cannot say that large corporations will be hurt because people decide to spend a little money locally in small businesses and suggest that you could actually hurt the big ones by doing that. And if you DO shop locally you are fueling your local economy which is a good thing. The big boys still have what they have.
I took from the early comments here that somehow we were hurting big business by trying to shop local. No, they are hurting because of what you both have said- the economy sucks, they opened too many stores, etc., etc., or have fallen to competition among themselves. I've just been trying to make the point that the Morgans, Vanderbilts, Rockefellers and their ilk aside, this country we love was built by individuals and their small businesses. Admittedly the big guys have advanced things a lot, but they have also caused troubles, so the math on that could be debated separately. I LIKE capitalism. I am one myself, and I know that business is business, but I believe that if you can only shop at Walmart, buy gas from only Exxon Mobil, or buy your gun stuff only from Larry Potterfield (just an example Larry, I love you guys!) - if those are your only options, we're screwed.
I don't think big business needs your help or sympathy.
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What I AM saying is that if big biz eats up little biz, we lose because little biz is a big part of our economy. I LIKE capitalism. I am one myself, and I know that business is business, but I believe that if you can only shop at Walmart, buy gas from only Exxon Mobil, or buy your gun stuff only from Larry Potterfield (just an example Larry, I love you guys!) - if those are your only options, we're screwed.
As Tom said, it's just part of a cycle. Little mom and pop businesses have out lived their time. We as consumers want a big selection. We don't want to order what we want and have to wait for it. We like walking in, picking it out, and taking it home. Or else have it delivered and installed the same day. Small mom and pop operations can't provide that. Shooters demand places like Midway, CDNN, Cabela's, and Sportsmans Warehouse. Hundreds of guns and thousands of accessories. All under one roof, or the click of a mouse away.
Today you wouldn't think of going to the hardware store to look at guns. In the 50's it was a common occurrence. Times change, as do peoples demands. Business change to provide those demands. It's not sad if you think about it. We as consumers brought this on ourselves. Specialty stores are everywhere. They are also far more vulnerable to economic shifts. Who could last longer in an economic slump? A mom and pop store with a few items, where they live upstairs, or a place like Cabela's that has to sell $50K worth of inventory a day to break even? With big reward comes big risk. It's not all wine and roses for these big corporations. When they fall they make a lot of noise, and effect a lot of peoples lives.
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I think many of your fears are unfounded Jay.
What I mean is that there is a place for both large and small businesses in America, and there always will be. The big box stores have there place. When you need to buy volume, most of the time, they are your best bet. However they will never be able to compete with the little guys when you need good service, and specialty goods.
For example, I was climbing in Salt Lake over the weekend. I needed to get some replaceent equipment. So I ran over to the REI. Being big they have a little bit of everything, but that also tends to limit their selection in particular niche items. So not finding what I needed I walked around the corner to the "mom and pop" climbing shop and got exactly what I needed.
It is the same scenario no matter which box store you are talking about. The mom and pops will crush them everytime when it comes to knowing their customers, the trends of the area, and meeting those needs. The box stores can't do it, nor will they put forth the effort. They focus on sheer quantity for their profits, where as small shops will always be customer oriented.
That is why there will always be a place for both. Because it creates choice for the customer which is always a good thing. On the one hand you get a better price, on the other you get excellent customer service. It just depends which best suits your needs at the time.
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With the exception of guns and ammo, how much of what Cabelas, Bass Pro and other big retailers is made here?
10%, 20%? I doubt very much it's that high...
I like to browse Cabelas and Bass Pro as much as the next guy but I've never bought a single gun from either! Big doesn't mean better and most certainly, there are far more experienced gun folks than those behind the counter at the ones we have here!
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With the exception of guns and ammo, how much of what Cabelas, Bass Pro and other big retailers is made here? 10%, 20%? I doubt very much it's that high...
True perhaps, but that's not their fault. If they stocked only American made sporting goods their store would be empty. And what little they would have no one would be able to afford.
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True perhaps, but that's not their fault. If they stocked only American made sporting goods their store would be empty. And what little they would have no one would be able to afford.
And therein lies the biggest problem! You've accepted that as the norm rather than the trying to affect some change. I realize we're in a global society but WE should be the leaders in manufacturing not the followers!
How would you like it if someone expected you to do machine work for 15 bucks an hour or less? You probably wouldn't like it much at all! Unless and until we demand more manufacturing here, I'm afraid we're doomed....
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J, I think you are missing part of my point, the reason a Mom and Pop place fails is because they are a dime a dozen, they all carry basically the same stock, and prices are around the same.
There is nothing to distinguish one from another.
In the early 1800's all the shipping on the Hudson river was controlled by the Keel boat companies, prices only varied by a few cents, travel times were the same etc., then along came Fulton, eventually his steamboats, ships, and trains forced the keel boats out of business, then Ericson came up with the screw propeller and killed off the paddle wheelers.
Innovation drives economic growth and we have not been innovators for years now.
We invented Computer Numeric Control at Stanford, but you walk into any US factory you may find some US or German produced machines, but the controllers will 90% of the time be either Fanuc, or Yasnac from Japan. Also, the vast majority of the machines will be Japanese, Chinese, or Korean
Other technologies are the same, we may invent it here, but it has become other countries that find the applications for the technologies .
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How would you like it if someone expected you to do machine work for 15 bucks an hour or less? You probably wouldn't like it much at all! Unless and until we demand more manufacturing here, I'm afraid we're doomed....
Believe it or not, there are areas of the country not far from here that only pay that, or in some cases less. I hear what you and Jay are saying, and as much as I would love to believe it, I can't. What Tom says is true. Time changes. We are great inventors. From pocket calculators to going to the Moon, we're the first. Then someone else picks up the production. We can't change that because we cannot directly compete.
In my trade everyone was worried about the Pacific Rim stealing all the machining jobs. The ones we lost to Singapore we ended up getting back. They were cheaper, but lacked the quality required. It was much the same with all of these companies that moved to Mexico under NAFTA. Many lost their asses and ended up going broke, or else moving back. It's the same with all of the Chi-Com crap at Harbor Freight. It's all getting better. As it does the price will increase. Remember Japan when we were kids? The running joke if you had a toy that said "Made In Japan" meant it was cheap crap. Just like Chi-Com crap is now.
Japan's quality is now every bit as good as ours.....And they're prices are the same or higher. People used to buy Datsun's in the late 60's and early 70's because they were cheap. No more. This is a never ending cycle. People won't work in China forever for nothing. That country is headed for a $h!t storm of epic proportions. They just need a few more guys like the one who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square. If they keep paying their workers what they have been, they'll have them. Lot's of them.
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To back what Bill posted, up here, what many companies do, ( T/C did this) is hire 2 or 3 machinists at $18 /hr they set up the machines for 20 or 30 button pushers who put parts in and take parts out for $10/hr.
Also, China, it doesn't make the news very often here but they are already having a "shit storm".
In the western part of the country dissatisfaction is being shown by farmers and others either going berserk in knife rampages, or by going into courts and city offices and blowing themselves up.
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A childhood friend of mine has made a cottage industry in the tool and die business he owns by fixing what the Chinese have screwed up.
I've had several offers to work for 18-25 bucks an hour in the last five months of job searches. I can't take that kind of a hit in my income at the moment. When and if I get to the end of the road as far as benefits, I'll do what's necessary but for the time being, I'm not going to work for less than I was making.
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There's always Walmart at about $7.25/hour.
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There's always Walmart at about $7.25/hour.
Up here the MW is $8.00 I think...
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A childhood friend of mine has made a cottage industry in the tool and die business he owns by fixing what the Chinese have screwed up.
I've had several offers to work for 18-25 bucks an hour in the last five months of job searches. I can't take that kind of a hit in my income at the moment. When and if I get to the end of the road as far as benefits, I'll do what's necessary but for the time being, I'm not going to work for less than I was making.
Don't get your hopes up.
The GE plant in Hooksett is hiring at $27/ hr and getting flooded with apps.
They have already hired several people from this area because it's $7/ hr more than the local Union shop is paying.
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Don't get your hopes up.
The GE plant in Hooksett is hiring at $27/ hr and getting flooded with apps.
They have already hired several people from this area because it's $7/ hr more than the local Union shop is paying.
I'm not, but I can't live here forever either!