The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: Steve Cover on March 30, 2012, 01:48:17 PM
-
I've been involved in several discussions about the 22 long rifle on a couple of the discussion group sites that I visit.
There is some interest in bullet modification.
Having just updated to a match target grade barrel on my 10-22, I decided that I was in a position to do a series of tests using both my 10-22 and my old Remington 211 that I got for my 6th birthday 60 years ago.
Do these devices make any significant difference in accuracy?
Is there any difference in the amount of improvement (if any) between an older well used sporter chamber and bore and a new target grade barrel?
Seeing an opportunity to do a lot of shooting, I've decided to do a modest field test this summer.
A Poco Kelly'Accurizer die set has been on my bench for several years, but never did much with it.
I did some investigating and found two other gunsmiths that make 22 bullet resizing sets.
A full set from each of them was purchased and enough ammunition to do a reasonable test using the same lots of ammunition for all of the different sizing dies and bullet tip forming rods.
I've divided the test into two factions, Standard Speed Target and High Speed Hunting ammunition.
My current plan is to shoot four, five shot groups off a solid bench rest at 25 yards to determine average accuracy for each variation tested, and five rounds tested each for penetration and expansion.
All will be chronographed.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/0-22BulletModificationProject002.jpg)
Pre-production photo showing material to be used.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/0-22BulletModificationProject003.jpg)
This is a better view of the die sets.
Due to the volume of rounds to be tested I haven't finalized on an expansion medium.
Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Also, of course, any other observations, comments etc., are welcome.
Steve
-
just a comment about practical accuracy in a 10/22...mine is pretty standard...Clark fluted barrel, cantilivered scope mount attached to barrel... barrel bedded with second mounting screw forward (recommended by Ken Tapp)...recut sear engagement notch angle on hammer... trigger about 22oz.
had an opportunity to talk to Mr David Tubb for a period of time about modifications to the bolt, especially head space...mine is pretty minimum... real difference I found out over a couple of years later is the need to limit the vertical movement of the firing pin...my rifle would throw fliers, but once the movement was removed shot very consistent groups
the biggest improvement was to build a harmonic barrel node dampener (tuner)... piece of 1 1/4" aluminum round stock, bore a .930 hole, and slit it lengthwise, drill and tap for a cross pinch bolt... slide it on barrel, shoot a group, loosen the dampener, move the tuner a very short distance...shoot another... you can watch the groups open and close...it allows you to tune your rifle to a specific brand of .22, rather than searching a bunch of ammo to find the one it likes....at 100yards, using Winchester Super X .22 high velocity (HV to knock down the 90y targets and my M41 Smith likes it)) it will hold 10 shot groups under 1"
for consistent ammo, without going to expensive match ammo like dimpled base Federal Gold Match, 900a/b, built a rim thickness gauge to be used with a digital caliper, and tried to hold the rim thickness to +/- .001" for the actual match
repeat after me.... the damn star at 90 yards is your friend... the damn star at 90 yards is your friend... the damn star....
-
When I first saw the title I began to wonder what 22LR was doing in the Reloading forum, but I should have known :)
I look forward to your testing and findings as I am looking at either accurizing my 10-22 or building one from the ground up to shoot at my new range (thanks to my wife ;D) along with a soon to be purchased 22 pistol.
There are some sharp individuals here and like Les before me they will have a ton of valuable information to add.
-
<<< SNIP >>>
had an opportunity to talk to Mr David Tubb for a period of time about modifications to the bolt, especially head space...mine is pretty minimum... real difference I found out over a couple of years later is the need to limit the vertical movement of the firing pin...my rifle would throw fliers, but once the movement was removed shot very consistent groups
the biggest improvement was to build a harmonic barrel node dampener (tuner)... piece of 1 1/4" aluminum round stock, bore a .930 hole, and slit it lengthwise, drill and tap for a cross pinch bolt... slide it on barrel, shoot a group, loosen the dampener, move the tuner a very short distance...shoot another... you can watch the groups open and close...it allows you to tune your rifle to a specific brand of .22, rather than searching a bunch of ammo to find the one it likes....at 100yards, using Winchester Super X .22 high velocity (HV to knock down the 90y targets and my M41 Smith likes it)) it will hold 10 shot groups under 1"
for consistent ammo, without going to expensive match ammo like dimpled base Federal Gold Match, 900a/b, built a rim thickness gauge to be used with a digital caliper, and tried to hold the rim thickness to +/- .001" for the actual match
<<< SNIP >>>
Good information, thanks.
Upgrading the accuracy potential of my 10-22 is an on going process. The harmonic dampener is definately in my future.
I use a modified 223 case and calipers for a rim thickness gage.
Grouping the cartridges also by cartridge weight has occured to me, but don't know if that would be worth while.
Your opinion please.
However, the intent of this planned test is to evaluate the effect if, any, of the bullet modification kits available.
Appreciate your response.
Steve
-
When I first saw the title I began to wonder what 22LR was doing in the Reloading forum, but I should have known :)
I look forward to your testing and findings as I am looking at either accurizing my 10-22 or building one from the ground up to shoot at my new range (thanks to my wife ;D) along with a soon to be purchased 22 pistol.
There are some sharp individuals here and like Les before me they will have a ton of valuable information to add.
I chose the reloading thread because I'm modifying the bullets... This seemed like the obvious choice.
I also own a shooting range that allows me to preform shooting tests that would not be allowed on a public range.
Unfortunately, it is located on our retirement property over 300 miles from our present home, I only get to use it a couple months a year.
I'm also doing an extensive test of handgun shot load effectiveness.
I'll also post that when finished if anyone is interested.
Thanks for your interest
Steve
-
Steve...tried to learn a little each year we shot the STC...1995, 96, 97 and 98....in talking to Lones Wigger, David Tubb, and Ken Tapp, and what I could read, concluded that accuracy with an autoloader .22lr was dependent primarily on how evenly the priming compound was distributed around the case rim when it was a slurry... and how consistent the headspace was held... one of my team mates worked for Smith and Wesson at the time and got us some quality question time with pretty good names in the shooting sport...I came to the conclusion that the tuner was a better option, and used a bedded locked down barrel and relied on rim thickness for consistency....since I was shooting standing offhand, and the targets were 4", trigger time was more valuable than intrinsic accuracy, so never tried to weigh individual cartridges.....I had the 90 yard targets, so opted for the high velocity cartridge, knowing it would be less accurate than standard velocity....as a school teacher, $.10 a shot for .22lr was out of the question....my other team mate and I bought the Clark barrels at the same time... his would not fire a cartridge as installed, and when we faced .015" off the chamber, and rechambered with a Bentz reamer shot better than my barrel did (until I built the tuner)
am interested with your tests...good luck
-
I look forward to this experiment.
Might I suggest you shoot for groups AT LEAST at 50yds if not 75 or 100? Take a look at the top two targets in the picture below. They were shot with an out the box 10/22 with CCI standard ammo. At 50 yards, I don't think you'd be able to tell if the modified .22 ammo was better, only if it were worse.
Some groups I've shot with this gun at 50 yards were even tighter. I'd be concerned that if a gun can't shoot 1" or less groups at 50 yards with at least one brand of ammo, before I started tuning the ammo. I'd first do a base line with at least 5 different types of ammo or more with the gun.
Just my 1.5cents work.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l-5SROc-Eq4/TFgG3TM4xmI/AAAAAAAAd8U/UvQznLS5h5M/s450/Target072910-02.jpg)
-
On a practical level I don't care since I will never apply any of this.
But on an intellectual level it will be interesting to see what "precision fanatics" are capable of achieving.
Looking forward to future results.
-
Might I suggest you shoot for groups AT LEAST at 50yds if not 75 or 100? Take a look at the top two targets in the picture below. They were shot with an out the box 10/22 with CCI standard ammo. At 50 yards, I don't think you'd be able to tell if the modified .22 ammo was better, only if it were worse.
Some groups I've shot with this gun at 50 yards were even tighter. I'd be concerned that if a gun can't shoot 1" or less groups at 50 yards with at least one brand of ammo, before I started tuning the ammo. I'd first do a base line with at least 5 different types of ammo or more with the gun.
Just my 1.5cents work.
<<< SNIP >>>]
Thanks,
Based on the advice I'm getting that 50 yards would be much better, that is the range that I'll be shooting.
I'll have to move my bench back some.
Being a disabled vet, the move will be a major task, but will be worth it.
Good thought on the baseline testing.
My goal is to use two different types of high speed and two different brands of standard speed ammunition.
I have about a dozen different brands of ammunition on hand. Naturally, I'll gravitate to the best performers for the test.
However, I'm not searching for super accuracy with this test, just trying to determine if bullet modification is worth the cost and effort.
Thanks for your help.
-
The tools
Poco Kelly Acurizer
My first tool was the Poco Kelly Acu'rizr bought back in 2007.
I casually played with it for a while, but always put a serious test on the back burner (until now)
Poco Kelly
PO Box 1170
Cortaro, AZ 85652
http://www.leverguns.com/store/acurizer.htm
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/01PocoKellyKit.jpg)
Poco's kit is the simplest and least expensive.
Bullet expansion is accomplished by striking the nose form rod with a hammer.
My expander has two sizes; .223 and .224 that can be set by choosing which end of the tool to use.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/02PocoKellyKit.jpg)
When I bought the kit, three forming rods were available.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/03PocoKellyKit.jpg)
1. Scorpion - An exaggerated hollow point with a central post (much like Federal Hydra-Shock pistol bullets)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/06PocoKellyKit.jpg)
Winchester Wildcat Dynapoint with exaggerated modification (pounded too hard)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/07PocoKellyKit.jpg)
CCI Mini-Mag with proper Scorpion HP
2. Hollow Point - A wide gaping cone shape.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/05PocoKellyKit.jpg)
Note the off center HP.
When modifying existing hollow point ammunition, the forming punch works well.
However, some of the holes made into standard round nose bullets are off center as seen above.
3. Nasty Nose - A dished out flat point
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/04PocoKellyKit.jpg)
Again, this is an exaggerated modification cause by striking the forming rod too hard.
One of the problems that I encountered with the Kelly kit, was my ability to strike the forming rod consistently.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/08PocoKellyKit.jpg)
Note different sizes of HP size.
This can (and will be) easily addressed, by cutting a short length of metal tubing to stop the forming rod at the same place each time.
I have a small arbor press that will take the place of the hammer.
A reloading press could also be used by fabricating a pair of stout metal disks to place above and below the tool.
To be fair to Poco, I have not contacted him about the Hollow Point pin, and have no reason to believe that he would not make things right.
According to his latest advertisement, he has made a lot of new modifications to his tools, and is well worth a look.
Steve
-
My second kit is the D-Rock available from Thornton Rimfire Innovations.
D-Rock Kit (Part 1)
Derek Thornton
1842 Ellis Blvd
Cedar Rapids, Iowa 52405
thorntonrimfireinovations@gmail.com
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/01D-RockKit.jpg)
There are eight different nose forming tips available (At $8.00 each) so you can mix and match as you wish.
Being an avid experimenter, naturally I bought all eight even though I'll probably winnow down to a couple for serious use.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/02D-RockKit.jpg)
The D-Rock die is designed much like the Poco Kelly set.
But Derek offers an adapter for using an arbor press if available.
Since I already have a small press from another experiment, I ordered the adapter too... (Glad I did)
To resize the bullets, they are placed into the sizing die set, the top spacer is place on top and the forming rod wit adjustable stop ring is inserted.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/03D-RockKit.jpg)
The assembled die is placed on station two of the press adapter.
(Station one is used to give a press assist in seating the cartridge into the sizing die if need be. All I needed was thumb pressure.)
Note that you can measure the gap and adjust to the desired amount of repeatable modification.
The rod is pressed down reforming the bullet to a uniform .224" diameter and the desired nose shape is swaged into shape.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/04D-RockKit.jpg)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/05D-RockKit.jpg)
-
D-Rock Kit (Part 2)
Like the Kelly die set, the reforming causes a tight fit in the die.
In both cases, the forming rod is used to push the cartridge back out of the die.
The D-Rock cartridge extraction is much easier.
First you turn the press adapter to station three where there is a hole for the cartridge to fall clear.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/06D-RockKit.jpg)
You pull out the forming rod, remove the stop spacer and reinsert the forming pin.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/07D-RockKit.jpg)
The cartridge is easily and gently pushed out and falls clear.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/08D-RockKit.jpg)
This operation is more complicated than the Kelly system, but much more consistent.
-
D-Rock Kit (Part 3)
The first forming rod in the D-Rock system is the flat point.
I've seen several articles about cutting off the tip of a 22 bullet form a flat point shape for better hunting performance.
CCI even marketed a SGB (Small Game Bullet) for a while.
The D-Rock set produces a smooth flat SGB shape consistently without the loss of bullet weight.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/09D-RockKit.jpg)
There is a rod that produces a true round nose.
I'm interested in the configuration.
Will it be more accurate than the parabolic shape of normal factory ammunition?
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/10D-RockKit.jpg)
There is a Standard Factory type of HP forming rod for duplicating the HP configuration without loss of weight.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/11D-RockKit.jpg)
Two domed SWC rods are in my set.
While I expect feeding problems in semi automatic firearms, they may be quite useful in my revolvers.
The Large Dome
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/12D-RockKit.jpg)
And a Small Dome.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/14D-RockKit.jpg)
Just fooling around, I adjusted the small dome die to form a full wadcutter profile.
I'm interested is seeing how of works in my Super Single Six handgun.
This could be my vermin eliminator.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/15D-RockKit.jpg)
There is a flared HP forming rod that produces a great deep HP with a wide mouth. I'm looking at this as a small game getter using standard speed target ammunition.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/16D-RockKit.jpg)
-
D-Rock Kit (Part 4)
Derek also provides two sizes of (Hydra-Shock type) post HP
The Large post produces a HP about the same size of the Kelly Scorpion point.
It does differ in the size of the space around the post
My hopes are that this will give improved modest expansion while providing a deeper penetration for larger small game.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/17D-RockKit.jpg)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/18D-RockKit.jpg)
However, right now, my favorite (based on appearance) is the small post nose shape.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/19D-RockKit.jpg)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/20D-RockKit.jpg)
Whether it proves to be more effective that a standard hollowpoint or not is yet to be seen.
But it does look menacing.
I like the D-Rock system because it allows a far greater repeatability and adjustment than the Poco Kelly system.
It also has a far greater flexibility with all the available extra forming pins available as extras to the basic set.
All this additional precision does come at the price of being the most labor intensive of all my forming tool sets.
-
Waltz Kit
Neal Waltz
4105 Hyatt N.W.
Massilon, OH 44646
waltz@sssnet.com
Finally, we come to the Waltz kit.
This a true loading press sizing die, and the easiest and fastest to use.
Bullet modification rod travel is adjusted just like a bullet seater die.... Very easy to use.
Once set up, bullet forming is as quick and easy as resizing cartridge brass.
The set comes with just two forming rods, an ELEY EPS style Flat Point and a magnificent Hollow Point.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/01WaltzKit.jpg)
The spare forming rod is stored in the die opposite to the active rod.
Very clever in my opinion. it never can be lost.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/02WaltzKit.jpg)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/03WaltzKit.jpg)
The Waltz system comes with a normal reloading press style shell holder designed for 22 Rimfire.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/04WaltzKit.jpg)
Here is the EPS Flat Point produced by the Waltz die.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/05WaltzKit.jpg)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/06WaltzKit.jpg)
The very deep hollow point rod allows any variation from a dimple point to a monster cavity without radically deforming the shape of the bullet nose.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/07WaltzKit.jpg)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/08WaltzKit.jpg)
Here are a couple of boxes of hollow points that I produced in just a few minutes.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/09WaltzKit.jpg)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/10WaltzKit.jpg)
Waltz's sizing die set is the most easy to use and adjust on top of being by far the fastest.
Also, having only a Flat Point and Hollow Point set of forming rods is no disadvantage.
About cost:
Remember that these are custom made and not production line items.
Because of the machining involved, this is the most expensive of the Bullet Modification dies sets that I purchased.
(I actually spent more on the full D-Rock set, but his comparable basic set is cheaper than this one)
So, are these different bullet modifying kits worth the cost?
That is one of the considerations prompting this test.
Hopefully, my test will cover enough variations to be helpful.
Now, I have to wait until June or July for the shooting phase of the test.
Best to all,
Steve
-
Wow Steve. Really into it. I envision all sort of problems with these various kits.
While I noticed none of these in your sample pictures I'd be concerned with:
Does the rim (the hollow rim) of the case get squeezed any? Is there a possibility for interfering with ignition? or at least a reduction in the exposure of the priming material to the poweder?
Does the bullet get forced further into the case by the pressure of these punches?
Looking forward to range tests.
-
I chose the reloading thread because I'm modifying the bullets... This seemed like the obvious choice.
I also own a shooting range that allows me to preform shooting tests that would not be allowed on a public range.
Unfortunately, it is located on our retirement property over 300 miles from our present home, I only get to use it a couple months a year.
I'm also doing an extensive test of handgun shot load effectiveness.
I'll also post that when finished if anyone is interested.
Thanks for your interest
Steve
I agree this is where this should be but like I said my first reaction was-HUH?
Where's your property? I grew up in the Yakima valley (33 years) and had several places to shoot on friends property (irrigation banks make great back stops and in the winter offer great potential inside).
As for any testing information you have I am sure we'd all be interested.
Thanks and good luck!
-
Wow Steve. Really into it. I envision all sort of problems with these various kits.
While I noticed none of these in your sample pictures I'd be concerned with:
Does the rim (the hollow rim) of the case get squeezed any? Is there a possibility for interfering with ignition? or at least a reduction in the exposure of the priming material to the poweder?
Does the bullet get forced further into the case by the pressure of these punches?
Looking forward to range tests.
That would be my worry. We are running loaded cases into a reloading machine or pounding on them with hammers....I guess if there were a chance at ignition, we'd have heard of it.
-
Wow Steve. Really into it. I envision all sort of problems with these various kits.
While I noticed none of these in your sample pictures I'd be concerned with:
Does the rim (the hollow rim) of the case get squeezed any? Is there a possibility for interfering with ignition? or at least a reduction in the exposure of the priming material to the poweder?
Does the bullet get forced further into the case by the pressure of these punches?
Looking forward to range tests.
Believe me, I also had those thoughts.
The first time I used the Kelly dies, I was wearing heavy duty safety glasses and the same welder's gloves that I wear when casing bullets.
However, when placed on a flat surface, the force of the hammer blow is spread evenly on the base of the shell rather than violently crimping narrow area like the firing pin.
Convinced of the relative safety, I now just wear my normal safety glasses when working with these.
As far as any of these tools squeezing the rim goes, they are rebated to avoid that.
Poco Kelly Die
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/PocoKelly000.jpg)
Note that not only does the outer ring provide space, but the chamber itself is cut out so the rim makes no contact.
D-Rock Die
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/22%20Bullet%20Modification%20Tests/D-RockKit000.jpg)
Like the Kelly die, the D-Rock die is relieved so that it does not touch the cartridge rim at all.
Waltz Die Set
(See earlier post)
The Waltz system uses a shell holder that supports the entire base during forming, and only touches the rim when the formed cartridge is pulled back out of the die.
I can pull the cartridges out of the dies with my bare hands, so the force applied by the shell holder against the rim is minimal.
In all cases, the case itself is not resized.
In fact the lower 1/16" or so never douches the die.
As for pressing live 22 shells into these dies, the force required is less than that of seating primers.
Deep Seating Bullets
Early on, being blessed with ten thumbs, I did manage to deep seat a couple of bullets during my first modifying session when using a steel carpenters hammer.
I quickly went to the light wood mallet that I use when tooling leather.
It works well, and is much easier to control.
The hammer shown in my photographs is an experiment to see if a plastic or rubber tip hammer would be easier to use.
It still proved to be too heavy and my consistency suffered.
I've been surprised in how little force is needed to deform the led in 22 bullets.
My home cast bullets are much harder.
22 Rimfire cartridges are crimped into the bullet.
When the case is supported by the sizing die, the soft bullets deform rather than pass deeper into the case.
Use of excessive force, or adjusting the forming rods so deep that the lead runs out of space to flow into, I'm sure that the bullets can be made to deep seat.
But, those scenarios are pretty radical.
I closely measured the bullet driving band against the case lip before and after forming my full wad cutters.
By carefully adjusting the rod deeper by small increments, I was able to produce a full wad cutter that showed no measurable amount of deep seating.
Smaller side tests include shorts and CB caps, but not on such a large scale.
It will be interesting to see if I can get a CB cap to upset.
I too am looking forward to the shooting part of this test.
Steve
-
I think you misunderstand (or in my post I didn't make it plain). I wasn't worried about firing the primer but about compressing the rim such that there is less gap inside the case around the rim.
Think of it this way. The base of the bullet is supported by the bench or something keeping it from backing out the die. You're pressing/striking on the top. Where the side walls of the case turn to form the rim is the only place that can give. Here's some crude ASCII before/after art.
| |
| |
___| |___
|_________|
| |
____ | | ____
|___\|__|/____|
The sidewalls were straight when I drew them. They remain vertical, it's just the rim that compresses.
-
I think you misunderstand (or in my post I didn't make it plain). I wasn't worried about firing the primer but about compressing the rim such that there is less gap inside the case around the rim.
Think of it this way. The base of the bullet is supported by the bench or something keeping it from backing out the die. You're pressing/striking on the top. Where the side walls of the case turn to form the rim is the only place that can give. Here's some crude ASCII before/after art.
| |
| |
___| |___
|_________|
| |
____ | | ____
|___\|__|/____|
The sidewalls were straight when I drew them. They remain vertical, it's just the rim that compresses.
You are right, I did missread your intent.
However, comparing before and after rims, I find no evidence of this.
The supported part of the case is pretty strong and has a lot of friction with the die, while the very maluable lead is free to flow into the open areas of the die and fill in the nose shape.
The transition from case wall to rim is not a sharp 90 degree bend.
There is a slight curve in the transition that would tend to transfer some of the downward force outward into the rim proper.
I believe that the bullet would set back into the case long before the case/rim junction failed.
Sorry that I missunderstood,
Steve
-
No need, Steve, I just didn't explain it well the first time.
Obviously, it hasn't been a problem or it would have come up. It would just be my main concern and be my luck to happen do that.
Brass if fairly malleable, but as you point out the lead is more so.
-
I'm waiting to see the targets from 50', 50 yards and 100 yards. I like what these tools are able to do, but from everything I've seen in accurizing of firearms, there are items like chamber, rifling and crown, and ammunition is based on ignition, powder charge, bullet weight, crimp (or lack there of), and headspace. I even saw an experiment where they compared issues with the point to issues with the tail: The nipped and ground the daylights out of the point with minimal affect, but a small file cut on one side of the tail and they had fliers every time from every gun.
-
I'm waiting to see the targets from 50', 50 yards and 100 yards. I like what these tools are able to do, but from everything I've seen in accurizing of firearms, there are items like chamber, rifling and crown, and ammunition is based on ignition, powder charge, bullet weight, crimp (or lack there of), and headspace. I even saw an experiment where they compared issues with the point to issues with the tail: The nipped and ground the daylights out of the point with minimal affect, but a small file cut on one side of the tail and they had fliers every time from every gun.
Quite so.
However, the germ of this idea originated on a survival blog.
The idea is how to maximise the effectiveness of 22 rimfire ammunition for the firearms on hand.
The reason I'm testing both my Volquartsen barreled 10-22 (lots of other aftermarket goodies, and glass bedded) and my 60 year old well used Remington sporter, is to see if ammunition modifications are effective and if one type rifle is more able to benefit.
Naturally, I'll be very interested in maximizing the accuracy of my target rifle.
But, terminal bullet performance is the major interest with accuracy improvement a close second.
Steve
-
Steve... the best terminal bullet performance I've ever seen from a .22lr was with an American 180 ;D
if you have never shot one, try a YouTube vid for American 180
-
Steve, thank you for a very interesting thread. Looking forward to seeing the results of this and the shot shell experiments you do. I think that one of these devices might work well with improving the sccuracy of some .22 revolvers such as the Ruger single six convertilbes. I have heard that the bore diameter on the Ruger SS runs a little large to accomodate the magnum cartridge. It makes sense to me that swaging the bullet a little larger to better fit the bore would give better accuracy.
In regards to getting fantastic accuracy from a 10-22 and some other rimfires I like some of the things the guys are doing in the superstock section of rimfirecentral .com
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=167
The idea of superstock is basically to have a traditional looking rifle that is highly accurate. Although the link I provided deals mostly with the Ruger 10-22 there is another section at RFC that deals with bolt action superstocks. I personally prefer the look of a tradtional rifle over the bull barrels, convoluted stocks, and barrel tuners, but that is just my preference. Blue steel and walnut. There are many tips and trick at RFC and it is the place to go for anything rimfire.
Also interested in the shot shell experiment. Some time ago I read a very interesting post on a now defunct lost forum post regarding single action revolvers. The guy had a single action with a custom paradox barrel by Hamilton Bowen in I think .44 or .45, I don't remember which. The paradox barrel is smoth except for a short section of rifling at the muzzle end. The short section of rifling is enough to impart spin on a bullet stabilizing it, but not so much rifling as to spin the shot, creating donut shaped shot patterns. The rifling also keeps it legal for BATF. I believe Bowen helped the owner to develope a load for it using number 4 shot that the owner was able to bag a turkey with it. I always thought that the concept was interesting and would like to experiment with it someday whaen I can afford a Bowen Classic Firearms custom single action if ever. :'(
http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/catalog.html
-
<<< SNIP >>>
Where's your property? I grew up in the Yakima valley (33 years)
<<< SNIP >>>
As long as you have asked:
We are about 20 miles west of Curlew.
The main range is a 300 Meter Handgun Silhouette range.
(Bought our property from a past Women's National Champion Silhouette shooter.)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Curlew/CurlewPistolSilhouetteRange01.jpg)
Silhouette Range Showing Pigs Turkeys and Rams
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/CurlewBear01A.jpg)
Chickens are shot at a different range.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Curlew/July%202011/600-JoAnne257TestFireJuly2011001.jpg)
My wife sighting in her hunting rifle off my pistol bench.
Its a nice place. We have 610 feet of stream face on one boundary.
Lots of critters.
Steve
-
Beautiful land!!...Looks like you have lots of room for friends ;D ;D ;D
Is that a real bear in the Chicken Picture?
Very nice.
-
Beautiful land!!...Looks like you have lots of room for friends ;D ;D ;D
Is that a real bear in the Chicken Picture?
Very nice.
Yes its a real bear... One of three on our property that we know of.
(And people ask me why I carry my 44 Magnum when I visit the outhouse at night... LOL)
Also have seen BIG! cat tracks.
Our neighbor killed a 150 pound Mountain Lion within a quarter mile of our trailer last year.
Here some other camp pests
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Curlew/DeerAtTrailer.jpg)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Curlew/Turkeysinourfrontyard.jpg)
We plan on moving here next year.
I can hardly wait.
Steve
-
Pretty nice spread you have there, albeit in the middle of nowhere ;D Then again that may just add to the charm. I grew up going up getting wood, hunting, shooting, wheeling up Chinook Pass where a family friend (more like extended family) had a cabin. I thought that was well removed from civilization until I looked up Curlew. Having worked out of Colville for the railroad I know the general area and it is beautiful country (almost moved up there 10 years ago) but it is well off the beaten path.
-
Great thread Steve. Even for me that does not reload I find it very interesting. Great property also , congrats. Look forward to the final accuracy test.
-
I've been involved in several discussions about the 22 long rifle on a couple of the discussion group sites that I visit.
There is some interest in bullet modification.
Having just updated to a match target grade barrel on my 10-22, I decided that I was in a position to do a series of tests using both my 10-22 and my old Remington 211 that I got for my 6th birthday 60 years ago.
Do these devices make any significant difference in accuracy?
Is there any difference in the amount of improvement (if any) between an older well used sporter chamber and bore and a new target grade barrel?
Seeing an opportunity to do a lot of shooting, I've decided to do a modest field test this summer.(snip)
Any updates?
-
Any updates?
\
Good question , have you had a chance to do any more testing ?
Or are you onto another interesting project ?
-
\
Good question , have you had a chance to do any more testing ?
Or are you onto another interesting project ?
Sorry for the delay.
Yes, something came up.
My grandson needed to do a senior project performing something that he had never done before.
He chose Wilderness Survival, and asked me to teach him.
I couldn't pass that up. I dropped everything and put together a 120 hour survival course.
It took over 600 pages of typing and picture copying to set up.
We are a little past the half way mark and will be finishing in this spring at my Pistol Range in Eastern Washington.
Here is a rough draft of the final field exam:
Wilderness Survival Course Final Field Test
The location will be at our property in NE Washington State.
We have 26 acres at about 2600 above mean sea level.
There are lots of small and large game on our property with 610' of stream face that hasn't been fished in over 20 years.
Planned date is late April -> early May.
This is "usually" a dry time there, but if it rains he will have to deal with it.
Temperatures in the area will be below freezing at night.
The scenario I'll be challenging him with is as an aircraft accident survivor.
Brad will be on a fly in fishing trip when the pilot has a sudden heart attack and crashes in a lake.
Luckily, being on a bush plane, Brad will have been allowed to keep his mini-kit, and hunting (Survival) knife on his person for the flight.
Not being able to help the dead pilot, Brad will just escape the plane in a rubber raft before the plane sinks.
So, he makes it to shore (still dry) with only what he had on his person, unable to use anything from the aircraft wreckage. Unfortunately, the wind blows the rubber raft back out onto the lake after an exhausted Bradley crawls up the bank.
Because the heart attack happened so fast, there was no radio call for help, and with the plane's sinking in a deep lake, there is no chance that any electronic signaling device that may have been activated by the crash will work.
So, knowing that the guide is already in the fishing camp and is expecting the plane, Brad knows that a search will soon be initiated.
However, the flight into the hunting camp was quite a long one and with no idea of where along the flight path the plane went down, the search team will have to cover the entire route.
Brad will have to survive on his own for several days up to a couple of weeks before he can expect to be rescued.
The test:
Plan and take action to survive until the rescue team can find him.
The field test will be at least two full days and one night.
I expect him to follow the rule of 3s to proceed with is planning.
Select a good location and build a shelter.
(Rope work and knot use included here).
Gather fire wood and demonstrate building a fire without a match.
(Matches got wet in the lake as did the small lighter).
Since finding water will really be no problem here, Brad will have to explain to me how he would find water if the stream was dry.
He will collect some water and demonstrate (without my directing him to) how to evaluate it's potential hazards and how to purify it for consumption.
Locating food: Scout the area for game sign, (lots of rabbit trails here) and set several traps.
(Naturally, after inspecting and grading the traps, all but one will be taken down.
The one remaining will catch a free range, store rabbit.
These can be identified by the plastic wrap)
There are several different edible plants on our property. I will expect him to gather a few of them for his rabbit stew.
(If he does not collect any edible plants, during the debriefing I'll have him identify at least three of them for me and explain the test used for unknown plants..)
During his food gathering, Brad will suffer a simulated bad cut on one of his arms.
He must deal with it and explain further concerns and treatment until help arrives.
(I've scheduled a Red Cross First Aid course for Brad as part of his training.)
Brad will cook us a meal and improve the shelter, including gathering enough fire wood to last all night.
We both will spend the night. (Brad wrapped up in his space blanket and me in a heavy coat sleeping in my Jeep.)
The next morning, Brad will explain his camp hygiene and sanitation procedures.
Next comes signaling for help.
He will demonstrate several methods of signaling including ground to air symbols.
Then it will be map and compass. I have a 1:24,000 USGS map of our property.
Brad will show me on the map where we are and give me the coordinates and height above MSL.
Now it's time to catch a fish... This will include using the proper knot.
Since our stream has not been fished in a long time, I expect that he will be successful.
Playing a fish with just his survival fishing kit will be very instructive.
(However, we will not be fishing if the season is closed. In that case, a store bought trout will be used instead.)
Assuming a strong compelling reason to abandon his camp, I'll expect him to plan an escape route to an area where he has a better chance of surviving and be rescued from.
Brad will tell me what compass headings he will follow, how long each leg is and roughly how long it should take him. (If travel time will not allow him to get to his chosen rescue point with time to make a camp, I will expect him to plan an overnight stay on the way, arriving with enough sunlight left to establish a shelter and find wood. The general area will be chosen on the map. He will explain what attributes the area shows on the map to make it a practical stop over choice)
RESCUE:
My being a helicopter pilot, brad will understand what information the rescue pilot will need:
(Wind Direction... Safe landing surface in case of tall grass hiding the ground features ... etc.)
Safety protocol around helicopters... Stay down slope, etc.
SO, after finishing my obligation to my grandson, I'll be picking up the 22 Rimfire test next spring.
I'll keep you posted.
Steve
-
Yup, "other interesting project". ;D
Have fun.
-
This is a very interesting and informative thread. I have learned lots. Many thanks for your time and knowledge. (I drive a 1900 in Northern Canada, but I was driving KA's before that on medivacs)