The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on April 04, 2012, 03:57:32 PM
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I would like, check that, I want us to change the way we address and push for our Second Amendment protections. It is time we drop the words "Conceal" and "Concealed" from our vocabulary when it comes to Bills and exercises.
Anybody that does not realize that I am all for concealing when carrying for a variety of reasons. However, we should not be painting ourselves into the corners by limiting ourselves to concealment only.
There are two main reasons, plus many others, as to why I want to see the words applying to concealment removed from the political debate:
#1. Concealing, and requiring concealment, implies that there is something to be ashamed of or that others should be sensitive to our bearing arms. It implies that by carrying a firearm we have something to be ashamed of, and you know how the homosexual crowd felt about "phobes." The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental, God given Right, that is protected by our Constitution, and we should not be ashamed of our full exercise there of, and nobody should be allowed to put us in a closet because they are afraid of something the Founding Fathers saw as so important that they put such high value on this protection;
#2. By allowing concealment to be a part of regulations we are leaving a crack in the dam. We are weakening any carry legislation in a way that makes us vulnerable to prosecution or punishment for exercising our rights. Many states and municipalities currently consider printing or accidental display (a shirt or jacket that raises or opens to allow the firearm to be seen) as a crime. This crack is something that continual manipulation can turn into a full disaster, just like wedges will split a boulder or water seepage will destroy a dam or dike.
If you don't think that the use of these words matter, come to the State of Minnesota where we do not have concealed carry. We can obtain a Permit to Carry a Pistol. The inappropriate use of the phrase concealed carry has the general public, most of law enforcement, legislators, and even many permit holders believing that we are a concealed carry or conceal and carry state.
It is time that we take a stand and say "Carry."
I will point out that this discussion was had and is the reason Minnesota's law is written as it is. The intent of the law was not to have people strutting down the street in open carry, which is what we had before this Bill passed (you could open carry without a permit, but you needed a permit to conceal). The intent was that people would carry concealed, but there would be no penalty or punishment for someone seeing that you are carrying. It is the same with our penalty for carrying where a business says no guns are allowed: If it is learned that you are carrying in their posted place of business it is no harm, no foul, unless you are asked to take the firearm from the business. If you are asked to remove the firearm from the place of business and refuse, and if law enforcement is called over it, you will be cited for trespass, and that is all.
Bring common sense back to the debate as we fight to restore our Constitutionally protected God given Rights!
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I have no problem with what you've expressed at all!
Here in the Peoples Republic, I don't have a Concealed Carry license. I have an LTC or "Class A License to Carry" which allows me to carry a large capacity firearm! Technically, there is no law against open carrying of a handgun in this state but I take care not to make waves!
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Some good points, Mike. In many places you can be licensed to carry concealed, but if someone gets a glimpse of your weapon, your rights are somehow null. Carry is carry.
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Mike, your points are valid. Here in Iowa it's known as a "Permit To Carry Weapons". Hell, we're not even limited to handguns. Rifles, shotguns, tasers, you name it are all covered by the permit.
Do I have a burning desire to carry a loaded Ar-15 around? No, but I could if I wanted to. ;D
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Mike, your points are valid. Here in Iowa it's known as a "Permit To Carry Weapons". Hell, we're not even limited to handguns. Rifles, shotguns, tasers, you name it are all covered by the permit.
Do I have a burning desire to carry a loaded Ar-15 around? No, but I could if I wanted to. ;D
NH is limited to "Pistol or Revolver", long guns are governed by Fish and Game regulations since they are not usually concealed and "open carry" is not regulated here.
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NH is limited to "Pistol or Revolver", long guns are governed by Fish and Game regulations since they are not usually concealed and "open carry" is not regulated here.
Up here the DNR (Department of Natural Resources) is Pissed! They oversee hunting activities, and transportation of firearms has always fallen under their power. However, they have been told, told again, and retold that they can not penalize citizens with a Permit to Carry a Pistol. They were also told they can no longer deny people who are legally carrying from carrying while hunting. This is a very big victory for the citizens of Minnesota!
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The way it works here , if you are carrying a rifle in the woods you have to have a hunting license since it is assumed to be Prima Facie (sp ? ) evidence of hunting.
Cops will not care, but Game wardens will bust you.
If you are carrying a pistol, it depends, concealed, you need a permit, open, no one cares unless it has been obviously modified for hand gun hunting with a scope or some such.
If you are carrying both, it is assumed the pistol is to finish off an animal dropped with the rifle.
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The way it works here , if you are carrying a rifle in the woods you have to have a hunting license since it is assumed to be Prima Facie (sp ? ) evidence of hunting.
Cops will not care, but Game wardens will bust you.
If you are carrying a pistol, it depends, concealed, you need a permit, open, no one cares unless it has been obviously modified for hand gun hunting with a scope or some such.
If you are carrying both, it is assumed the pistol is to finish off an animal dropped with the rifle.
This is along the thought line of Minnesota DNR. They claimed you couldn't carry a hand gun while archery hunting unless it was a bear hunt, you couldn't carry a handgun while hunting unless it met hunting regulations, you couldn't carry a handgun during hunting season unless you had a hunting license, and if you were hunting or going to or from the hunt DNR would consider your holstered handgun as an uncased firearm and cite you. Minnesota DNR likes to view that they only reason for a firearm is to hunt, and during hunting season they view every gun as being a part of hunting.
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The down side in NH is that if you have a rifle in the woods when it's NOT hunting season they will still assume you are hunting IE poaching.
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Here's the deal in MA.
Hunting; rifles are not allowed except for coyote, everything else is shotgun/muzzleloader only including deer and only one firearm per hunter or you share a gun with someone under 18. No handguns are allowed while actively hunting.
Another weird condition here is you can only carry ammunition for the firearm you are using to hunt with. Don't get caught with a live .22 lr cartridge while you're carrying a 12 ga shotgun or anything else for that matter. No hunting on Sundays or holidays which is really a pain in the butt.
Deer, you cannot have any part of the animal visible on your vehicle until after you've checked into a tagging station. After that, you can drag it down the road for all they care!
All state lands in MA are available for target practice with any type firearm as long as you're licensed with an LTC. Obviously safe practices are "encouraged"! Shooting hikers is not allowed.....
;)
And, there is no closed season or bag limit for crows! ;D
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The way it works here , if you are carrying a rifle in the woods you have to have a hunting license since it is assumed to be Prima Facie (sp ? ) evidence of hunting.
The down side in NH is that if you have a rifle in the woods when it's NOT hunting season they will still assume you are hunting IE poaching.
How is someone supposed to target shoot? Or is that verboten too?
After reading Tim's post on MA rules, there is a less than zero chance I would venture up there...even if the game came pre-gutted.
Kinda like my travels to the midwest WON'T include passing anywhere in IL.
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After reading Tim's post on MA rules, there is a less than zero chance I would venture up there...even if the game came pre-gutted.
Kinda like my travels to the midwest WON'T include passing anywhere in IL.
Yea, it's pretty tough on this Michigan boy who could walk about 1/2 mile from his house and hunt in a suburban woodland until they destroyed it to build a mall.
Even so, we could walk up to a farmhouse, ask the owner to hunt and if we were fortunate, leave a few fresh pheasant or other small game for him on the way out as thanks!
We didn't need rules then! Our rules were made quite clear to us from our fathers...
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Let me add a couple of things in Iowa that are exceptions to the statement I posted earlier.
1) If you are hunting deer with a bow you are not allowed to carry a handgun, even if you have a permit.
2) If you are riding a 4-wheeler or snowmobile you are not allowed to carry a gun (loaded or unloaded) on your person (must be unloaded and cased), even if you have a permit.
File #2 above under: "Things that make you go...................................
(http://obsoletegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wtf-cat.jpg)
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Kmitch and tt bring up the issues of why it is important that we do not continue to paint ourselves into these corners. We have given up so much, while other think we are inflexible, that we are stuck with stupid infringements.
The more I consider these issues and dwell on them, the more I feel like Haz on clips or Uncle Ted on the Second Amendment all together. We have all the permitting we need, and it is called the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America!
Before we enact anything more we need to repeal the NFA of 1934! But before we can do that, we need to fix how we communicate. Words have power, and if we are going to keep imposing limitations in our vocabulary the anti's will take advantage of it.
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How is someone supposed to target shoot? Or is that verboten too?
After reading Tim's post on MA rules, there is a less than zero chance I would venture up there...even if the game came pre-gutted.
Kinda like my travels to the midwest WON'T include passing anywhere in IL.
You would not be roaming around "in the woods" you be somewhere more open with a target set up.
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You would not be roaming around "in the woods" you be somewhere more open with a target set up.
Some people like to walk to their shooting areas. If that path takes them within 25' of 300 trees are they then hunting?
"In the woods" is pretty expansive terminology that I suspect has been used more than once to screw people by overzealous game wardens.
We have all the permitting we need, and it is called the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America!
AMEN!!
On a side note, a friend of mine had to kill a mountain lion with an arrow because the damn thing was in his lap!
That was AFTER he did some yelling with movement and the cat knew he was human but continued it's stalk anyway. Since then, he calls up Game & Fish every time he goes bow hunting and tells them he will be packing a sidearm and where they can find him. So far they haven't protested. (approx. 5 years)
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Some people like to walk to their shooting areas. If that path takes them within 25' of 300 trees are they then hunting?
"In the woods" is pretty expansive terminology that I suspect has been used more than once to screw people by overzealous game wardens.
AMEN!!
On a side note, a friend of mine had to kill a mountain lion with an arrow because the damn thing was in his lap!
That was AFTER he did some yelling with movement and the cat knew he was human but continued it's stalk anyway. Since then, he calls up Game & Fish every time he goes bow hunting and tells them he will be packing a sidearm and where they can find him. So far they haven't protested. (approx. 5 years)
Your misunderstanding is my fault, I should have specified "loaded rifle".
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Just call it RKBA.. That's what it says in the Constitution..
I guess that's close enough..
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Just call it RKBA.. That's what it says in the Constitution..
I guess that's close enough..
A little bit off topic, but some serious thought leads me to the conclusion that even if all gun laws went away except for "shall not be infringed" there would still be a legitimate amount of regulation of hunting in order to sustain the game population.
For example you could expect machine guns to be prohibited for hunting, also, Game Depts could be expected to regulate calibers permissible for various types of game, no .50 BMG for rabbits, no .22LR for bear, shot gun only in developed areas would still be with us ,they might even mandate suppressors. ;D
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A little bit off topic, but some serious thought leads me to the conclusion that even if all gun laws went away except for "shall not be infringed" there would still be a legitimate amount of regulation of hunting in order to sustain the game population.
For example you could expect machine guns to be prohibited for hunting, also, Game Depts could be expected to regulate calibers permissible for various types of game, no .50 BMG for rabbits, no .22LR for bear, shot gun only in developed areas would still be with us ,they might even mandate suppressors. ;D
All that would be understandable. And if the rules were done with the intent and reasons you suggested, we would finally have some "common sense" gun laws.
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How about NO GUN LAWS!!! That is the meaning of freedom - it also carries a responsibility. Self policing is mandatory & all 'rule' breaking must be punished (or the rule fixed).