The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: lhprop1 on April 08, 2012, 09:59:57 PM
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I recently acquired this old musket. I was hoping someone could help me identify it. As you can see, it's in worse than horrible condition, but I'm a history nut and I'd love to know what it is. Unfortunately, the only markings on it that I can make out are "New Hartford, CONN" above the trigger. Immediately above that is a 6 or 7 letter word that ends in 'RANT'. It could be Warrant, Tarrant, or anything like that. It also has a stamping of an eagle with 2 arrows in one talon and an olive branch in the other talon. Near the butt plate, a previous owner had inscribed 1840 into the wood.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g236/lhprop1/DSC02392.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g236/lhprop1/DSC02396.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g236/lhprop1/DSC02393.jpg)
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I'm no expert, but I think it's a caplock, not a flintlock. So it would use a percussion cap for ignition instead of flint.
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I'm no expert, but I think it's a caplock, not a flintlock. So it would use a percussion cap for ignition instead of flint.
Yeah, you're right.
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Looks kinda like a Springfield, but the fancy trigger guard is throwing me off....can't find matching photo...my google-fu is weak today.
I did find a photo of a Hawken Plains rifle that was close, but still off. It could have been custom made.
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Guide_to_Muzzleloaders
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Variations of the eagle with arrows and olive branch were quite popular in the 1840's as representing the Great Seal. Why only two arrows vs thirteen is curious.
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Variations of the eagle with arrows and olive branch were quite popular in the 1840's as representing the Great Seal. Why only two arrows vs thirteen is curious.
Sounds more like a company logo, since the stock is to short for any military rifles I can think of.
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Looks kinda like a Springfield, but the fancy trigger guard is throwing me off....can't find matching photo...my google-fu is weak today.
I did find a photo of a Hawken Plains rifle that was close, but still off. It could have been custom made.
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Guide_to_Muzzleloaders
The trigger guard is what's throwing me off, too.
The more I think about it and look at other period guns, the more I think it may have been a custom job. The inscription on the receiver plate ???RANT may have been the mark of an individual gunsmith or owner of the gun. Maybe his name was J. Durant or something. If it was a custom job, that would explain his name and city on the receiver plate.
As for the eagle with only 2 arrows, is it possible that it was made pre-revolution and therefore had no official "Great Seal" to base it off of?
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Maybe? A variation, as it's stamped/engraved 1840. This is really close.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess
Brown Bess is a nickname of uncertain origin for the British Army's Land Pattern Musket and its derivatives. This musket was used in the era of the expansion of the British Empire and acquired symbolic importance at least as significant as its physical importance. It was in use for over a hundred years with many incremental changes in its design. These versions include the Long Land Pattern, Short Land Pattern, India Pattern, New Land Pattern Musket, Sea Service Musket and others.
The Long Land Pattern musket and its derivatives, all .75 caliber flintlock muskets, were the standard long guns of the British Empire's land forces from 1722 until 1838 when they were superseded by a percussion cap smoothbore musket. The British Ordnance System converted many flintlocks into the new percussion system known as the Pattern 1839 Musket. A fire in 1841 at the Tower of London destroyed many muskets before they could be converted. Still, the Brown Bess saw service until the middle of the nineteenth century. Some were used by Maori warriors during the Musket Wars 1820s-1830s, having purchased them from European traders at the time, some were still in service during the Indian rebellion of 1857, and also by Zulu warriors, who had also purchased them from European traders during the Anglo-Zulu War in 1879, and some were sold to the Mexican Army who used them during the Texas Revolution of 1836 and the Mexican-American War of 1846 to 1848. One was even used in the Battle of Shiloh in 1862.[1]
More at link., Including lengths and specs and pics.. Could be a version that had a fancier trig. guard. Would need some close ups of the eagle, and other markings to try to chase down more.
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Yes, I thought about the Bess also....but the trigger guard again throws things off. Along with slight variations in the side plates.
Of course, those guys back in the day were also just as apt to cobble modifications just like we do today.
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The eagle stamping would hint at it not being a limey bang stick. If the gun was in one piece, the eagle would have been at the base of the barrel completely covered by the forearm. Why would they tinker and modify something like that if it wasn't readily visible?
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The eagle stamping would hint at it not being a limey bang stick. If the gun was in one piece, the eagle would have been at the base of the barrel completely covered by the forearm. Why would they tinker and modify something like that if it wasn't readily visible?
I agree.....I'm leaning toward US made due to the Hartford stamp and the eagle also.
As to the mods, you never know what folks will do to a rifle. :-\
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The Eagle with arrows is either a proof mark or a company logo, all the military rifles mentioned had a stock that extended to near the muzzle, a trend that continued through the 03 Springfield and SMLE.
Additionally, the butt plate is wrong for a military rifle.
Nothing about gun companies located there but the town is in NW Conn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hartford,_Connecticut
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all the military rifles mentioned had a stock that extended to near the muzzle, a trend that continued through the 03 Springfield and SMLE.
Additionally, the butt plate is wrong for a military rifle.
That's good to know. Is there a chance that it was sporterized like was done with so many of the SMLE's (like mine is) or didn't they do that back then?
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That's good to know. Is there a chance that it was sporterized like was done with so many of the SMLE's (like mine is) or didn't they do that back then?
I don't believe there was any formal "sporterizing" of military surplus guns, it would have been a home made job.
The combination of the short stock, curved butt plate, trigger guard, and ramrod guide rib make me think this was a purely civilian rifle.
The location of New Hartford in NW Conn puts it right in the heart of "gun valley" between Hartford and Springfield.
until the middle of the 20th century this area, along with Remington and Henry in NY state produced all the commercial mass production fire arms made in the US, along with the vast majority of military arms.
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Looks kinda like a Springfield, but the fancy trigger guard is throwing me off....can't find matching photo...my google-fu is weak today.
I did find a photo of a Hawken Plains rifle that was close, but still off. It could have been custom made.
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Guide_to_Muzzleloaders
I think youre spot on, definately a half stock "Rocky Mountain Rifle" variant of some brand/manufacturer.
Would be interesting to know the barrel length and bore size.
I suggest that the OP post this on the muzzleloading forum, some of them are walking encyclopedias on anything muzzleloading.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php
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Thanks for all the help guys. Someone on another forum (a weightlifting forum, nonetheless) found this http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8707443 and it sure looks to be a Hawken. With a little touching up, it will look good above my fireplace.
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"Hawken" is a style of rifle now that refers to what is actually a "Plains" or "Mountain" rifle.
In the era yours was produced it specifically referred to rifles produced by the Hawken brothers of St Louis for the Mountain men engaged in the fur trade.
The wiki link below contains technical info on barrel length, caliber range, etc that may help some what.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawken_rifle