The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on April 11, 2012, 05:59:54 PM
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So much for the idea that because of that get out of jail free card legislation called stand your ground.
This evening George Zimmerman was charged with second degree murder. He was already in custody, after turning himself in, prior to the public announcement. TURNED HIMSELF IN PRIOR TO ANNOUNCEMENT!
I watched the press conference twice, and I saw the same thing twice. The majority of the press conference was spent lecturing everybody about how the system works, that this case will be tried in a court of law, that media and public opinion is not what matters, and that the system works. It was made clear that stand your ground defense had nothing to do with the delay or the charges. It was made clear that stand your ground is a part of the defense once you get into court.
However, questions from the media focused on why it took so long to charge, what finally lead to the charges, if stand your ground failed Zimmerman, and where Zimmerman is. Great how the media can sit in a room and not adjust their predetermined questions after listening to the prosecutor explain everything.
After listening to, and double checking, the differences between first degree murder, second degree murder and manslaughter, I believe that the prosecution is painting themselves in a mighty tight corner by not charging with both second degree murder and manslaughter. It sounds like they have done a lot of investigation, and she made it clear that the media does not know everything, but I see some mighty tough hurdles to jump for second degree murder.
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It was a bit much to listen to the prosecutor mention "justice for Treyvon"!
What about justice for George? It's their job to prove the case, he doesn't even have to open his mouth again if he doesn't want to! I think this was show and tell to calm the masses for the time being.
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She did say justice for Zimmerman, but it went from equal, to an after thought to forced the last time. She even threw in a weird smirk the last couple of sentences.
I do need to add that Eric Holden spent the day on TV, mostly through rebroadcasts, saying that the bar or threshold for the feds to step in is very high. However, he did make sure we understood that he is looking at federal hate crime possibilities. How can they prove that one when the 911 tape clearly demonstrates that the first mention of race came from the operator, and Zimmerman did not know. Way to go Mr. Holden >:( Did Al Sharpton or Rev. Jackson write that speech for you >:(
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I posted before I saw this thread.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=19471.new#new
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I've mentioned it before in my electoral college threads.
The election i think is going to be real close, and i think it all might hinge on Florida's electoral college votes.
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Listening to the news this morning I thought to myself that the silver lining is that the mongers and the media are turning this into a total racial catasrophe, effectively taking Stand Your Ground and CCW in general completely out of the argument. Al Sharpton has hijacked the opportunity from the anti's.
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Pretend for a moment that we live in a real world, and that everything between the media and government is running like it is supposed to run:
During the press conference, the Florida Special Prosecutor's press conference announcing that charges are being filed against George Zimmerman; during a press conference when Special Prosecutor Angela Corey lectured the media and us as citizens that this case has not been tried, that it has been extensively investigated, is very complex, and that it will be tried in a court of law; in a press conference when we were told repeatedly that this trial would be about protecting the rights of Mr. Martin's family and the rights of Mr. Zimmerman; and a press conference where we were told that things are proceeding smoothly (Mr. Zimmerman is in custody, and that he turned himself in on his own).
Why during this very same press conference arranged by the prosecutor's office is the Rev. Al Sharpton standing next to Special Prosecutor Angela Corey?
I am not of the chosen race, so I do not need to ever concern myself with this. However, if I were ever a victim of a crime that received national attention and someone like the Rev. Jessie Jackson or the Rev. Al Sharpton took the spot light over it, I would be in front of the media immediately sending a message for them to get there wast dispensing lower anatomy out of my life. Who gave them permission and the right to turn every issue into a public circus to serve their own agenda? I know they see themselves as the second coming, or even the reincarnated, Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.. But boys, you ain't! I was too young to grasp everything with Rev. King Jr., but all I see from these two is using the Christian Church to divide the nation and fan the flames. I honestly believe these two are trying to recreated the race riots of the 1960's.
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If not for racial division those two would be irrelevant and they know it! They're trying to remain current so they must continue to fan the flames of racism!
According to George Will, 94% of the killings in the black community are from black perpetrators! They're killing each other and no one bothers to mention that. When Bill Cosby suggested that young black men take responsibility for the children they father, he was ostracized and condemned by the black community including Sharpton and Jackson!
They don't want things to change!
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My gut feeling on this is that Zimmerman wasn't arrested and charged right off the bat because the police and DA's office had already seen Martin's name a few times come across their desks. Heck! For all we know, if there were break ins/burglaries before and somebody was caught and that somebody happened to be black, it is very possible that it was Martin. Since juvenile records are supposed to be sealed, the DA and police couldn't publicly say anything.
I wonder that if now that this is going to... I guess... A stand your ground hearing...and then possibly to trial I guess... I wonder if Martin's juvenile records if there are any will be unsealed.
On a different note...I have to wonder what Zimmerman's mom's maiden name is.
If it is something like Martinez or Rodriguez, I think we should incorporate that into the news reports. "George Rodriguez Zimmerman turned himself in today...."
Since I have acess to Form 990's via guidestar.com, i might have to peek at the financials for rainbow push coalition and the action network and try to figure out how Al and Jesse are making their money. I did some googling the other day and there were tax shenanigans going up between the SEIU, the democratic party, and PUSH...I think it was PUSH.
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If not for racial division those two would be irrelevant and they know it! They're trying to remain current so they must continue to fan the flames of racism!
According to George Will, 94% of the killings in the black community are from black perpetrators! They're killing each other and no one bothers to mention that. When Bill Cosby suggested that young black men take responsibility for the children they father, he was ostracized and condemned by the black community including Sharpton and Jackson!
They don't want things to change!
Why would they want things to change, there is no money in that.
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I am in Illinois so ... Hmmm... Yeah take what i have to say next with a grain of salt... As i understand "stand your ground" laws, they were never meant to be a get out of jail free card.
What i get out of how they are written:
1. You no longer have a duty to retreat nor do you have to show that you retreated prior to shooting
2. Should it be determined to be a righteous shoot, you were immune or exempted from any civil action such as a wrongful death suit
3. To disuade car-jackings the idea of "your castle" was extended to include your vehicle, especially if you are occupying it at the time.
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Tyler,
He was arrested, taken to the station, and processed. He was under instructions as to how to stay in contact. Remember the videos of Mr. Zimmerman being removed from the backseat of the squad car, being escorted into the station with his hands cuffed behind his back, and remember the photos from the police of him in an orange coverall? If you saw the news conference yesterday you would have noticed the surprise in the media that the prosecutor knew where Mr. Zimmerman was. Had the media payed attention to what they were being told in live broadcasts they would have known that law enforcement has known all along where he was.
Law enforcement took the time that night to look at the facts and weigh the evidence. They determined that there was no reason to hold him.
I am not saying that after taking the time to dig into everything that there is not a reason for charges. But, it does smell fishy that Rev. Sharpton is a primary figure in the press conference. Add to that the constant flow this week from Eric Holder concerning Federal Hate charges. I smell hemp being oiled and twisted.
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In Minnesota the Bill was written to leave the four conditions for deadly force to remain intact. These include retreat not being an option. We have never been required to retreat, but as a part of being an unwilling participant you must not be hanging around when you could be headed elsewhere.
Everyone gets hung up on the extension of the "castle" to other areas. The key is that we don't need a castle, all self defense is based on self. We can't defend something if we are not in danger our ourselves. We are not, and would not be under our proposed, passed and vetoed Bill, allowed to use deadly force unless we are in danger of death or severe bodily harm. The thing the paranoid anti's miss is that we aren't allowed to defend our house, our car, our boat, or our pansies. We are only allowed to defend ourselves and those with us.
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Here's the law in MA as written today! There is a bill to modify it to include other provisions to include "anywhere an individual has the legal right to be" and eliminate civil liabilities if the shoot was righteous.
Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.
You will be arrested and tried as I interpret this law but there was a case a few years back where a fellow shot and killed an individual who was actually attacking someone else in a hospital. He was not arrested or indicted in the incident and he was in no danger himself when he killed the perpetrator.
It's all up to the prosecutor!
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You will be arrested and tried as I interpret this law but there was a case a few years back where a fellow shot and killed an individual who was actually attacking someone else in a hospital. He was not arrested or indicted in the incident and he was in no danger himself when he killed the perpetrator.It's all up to the prosecutor!
Under our Castle Doctrine, I think you would be in more trouble if you DIDN'T shoot.
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What about justice for George? It's their job to prove the case, he doesn't even have to open his mouth again if he doesn't want to!
Hopefully the jurors understand that.
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Hopefully the jurors understand that.
It all goes back to our fundamental right that we are innocent until proven guilty. This is why I am both pleased and perplexed that the Special Prosecutor went with Second Degree Murder for a charge. This is a much more difficult case to prove than Manslaughter. If Mr. Zimmerman's defense team is thinking they will play the Stand Your Ground legislation very low key, but demonstrate danger to life or severe bodily injury based on the injuries Mr. Zimmerman was treated for and the eye witness account of Mr. Martin being on top when the two were on the ground. I would also like to see firearm experts experiment and find all the ways a semi-automatic handgun could fire one round and retain the spent case in the closed chamber.
Bottom line comes from out Pledge of Allegiance: "... and justice for all." Don't forget that Mr. Zimmerman is one of us, even though he does not have the Rev. Sharpton on his side. Just think, if Mr. Zimmerman, being a mixed race hispanic, had been assaulted or killed by a white person, the Rev. Sharpton and Rev. Jackson would be surrounding his family and screaming for a lynching justice ???
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I was wondering about the charges also. My thinking is that they are charging the higher crime as a bow to pressure from the race baiters and the DOJ, with the intention of pleading it down.
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My reading of the differences over the past week or so tells me that based on what we have been fed by the media, there is a very strong case for Manslaughter - When Mr. Martin finally turned and attacked and caused head injuries, it could have been due to Mr. Zimmerman following him (removing the burden of being an unwilling participant, and even if you throw out anything considering retreat you still need to remember that Mr. Zimmerman inserted himself in the situation.).
The wild card in all of this is that Mr. Zimmerman was not only a member of Neighborhood Watch, but he was a leader in the group. We do not know what the police leadership in this group taught and instructed. This can possibly make a very large difference in the rules for use of force - If neighborhood watch has been instructed to try and document or have knowledge of where the person of concern is, this would in affect give Mr. Zimmerman justification for following Mr. Martin.
This will get interesting, and as Monday morning quarterbacks we will always know better than anyone else ;)
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My reading of the differences over the past week or so tells me that based on what we have been fed by the media, there is a very strong case for Manslaughter - When Mr. Martin finally turned and attacked and caused head injuries, it could have been due to Mr. Zimmerman following him (removing the burden of being an unwilling participant, and even if you throw out anything considering retreat you still need to remember that Mr. Zimmerman inserted himself in the situation.).
The wild card in all of this is that Mr. Zimmerman was not only a member of Neighborhood Watch, but he was a leader in the group. We do not know what the police leadership in this group taught and instructed. This can possibly make a very large difference in the rules for use of force - If neighborhood watch has been instructed to try and document or have knowledge of where the person of concern is, this would in affect give Mr. Zimmerman justification for following Mr. Martin.
This will get interesting, and as Monday morning quarterbacks we will always know better than anyone else ;)
This is true.
The truth could be anywhere to pure self defense by Zimmerman to near 1st degree murder attempt by the kid.
If Zimmerman was following but diligently maintained a 25 yd. distance at all times and the kid then went around a corner, ducked into a hiding place and Zimmerman followed after checking around the corner and was jumped by the kid....pure self defense on Zimmerman's part....and near premeditated attempted murder on the kid's part
If Zimmerman hustled to catch up with the kid, drew his weapon, grabbed the kid and told him he wasn't gonna get loose and the kid grabbed the gun and wrestled with Zimmerman and was shot and killed...gun not cycling because the kid held the slide....2nd degree murder by Zimmerman.
And LOTS of room in between....and perhaps no way to know what the truth is.
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This is way ... Way... Out in left field... Could a guy plead guilty to murder 2, then request the death sentence , by firing squad and ask that jesse and al and farakan be behind the triggers for the squad?
They want to preach hate and are so eager to spill blood, well that would be their chance to finally walk the walk and their people by example.
If anything it would get inside the race baiters OODA loop.
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Contrary to evidence on this board, I have been working this morning. Lots of emails and followup phone calls in front of the computer. That said, it is din din time, and I just turned on the news.
Zimmerman is making his first court appearance at this time. Not much in the hearing of any excitement, but I see he had new counsel, and I thought about of yesterdays rant by his former counsel: Did those two quit over the fact that he had turned himself in? They said they did not approve of several things, and one of them was contact with law enforcement. Not saying he was wise or stupid, but when the attorneys claimed they had no idea where he was, the Special Prosecutor was saying that he was in custody and they always knew where he was.
Biggest news, or not surprising but irritating, gun control laws are going to be a big part of this as claimed by our enemies.
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During a little left over Easter ham and some homemade hot mustard, I watched the post hearing interview. If I am ever in trouble I want Mr. Mark O'Mara as my attorney!
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I was wondering about the charges also. My thinking is that they are charging the higher crime as a bow to pressure from the race baiters and the DOJ, with the intention of pleading it down.
I immediiately thought the Murder2 was a "gimme" so the Martin family and Al/Jesse wouldn't have anything to blame the DAs office about but the burden of proof wouldn't be high enough for a conviction.
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I commented on another related thread:
The mother went on TV today saying she thought the shooting was an "accident" but wanted justice to be served.
Also, media still wanted to know why it took so long to file charges.
(they just don't get this whole thing about getting ALL the facts straight BEFORE making charges and arrests).
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I commented on another related thread:
Also, media still wanted to know why it took so long to file charges.
(they just don't get this whole thing about getting ALL the facts straight BEFORE making charges and arrests).
With the MSM it is never about the evidence just the seriousness of the charges UNLESS the perp is a known Democrat, minority or a member of the MSM or any combination therein.
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I immediiately thought the Murder2 was a "gimme" so the Martin family and Al/Jesse wouldn't have anything to blame the DAs office about but the burden of proof wouldn't be high enough for a conviction.
I came to wonder if that wasn't it myself - a sop to the Entitled Ones to keep them from rioting, but knowing full well that they don't have the case to convict on Murder 2.
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can you imagine what will happen if Zimmerman is found not guilty?
here, I will give you an idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-LB94Kwlws
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Rioters should be shot , "Peaceful assembly for redress of grievances" does not include arson and looting.
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Rioters should be shot , "Peaceful assembly for redress of grievances" does not include arson and looting.
X1
Given the recent historical trend of utilizing social media to coordinate "flash" mobs, I believe a Not-Guilty verdict would spark an environment not seen before-UNLESS it is quickly (and violently ?)dealt with.
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I commented on another related thread:
The mother went on TV today saying she thought the shooting was an "accident" but wanted justice to be served.
Mother then clarified that the "accident" she was referring to was the "accident" of her son meeting Zimmerman--not the shooting. THAT was a racially motivated killing of a black choir boy who was devoting his life to single mothers and a small business specializing in a naturally grown consumer product.
This whole thing is a sad situation, and Zimmerman may well turn out to be the scapegoat.
Crusader
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This is a perfect example of why I condemn "Democracy" it is nothing more than the "Dictatorship of the mob".
Mother then clarified that the "accident" she was referring to was the "accident" of her son meeting Zimmerman--not the shooting. THAT was a racially motivated killing of a black choir boy who was devoting his life to single mothers and a small business specializing in a naturally grown consumer product.
This whole thing is a sad situation, and Zimmerman may well turn out to be the scapegoat.
Crusader
Knocking up girls on welfare and selling weed. :-\
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Guess what deters looters? Just like the Koreans did in LA protecting their store????
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I think the Murder2 charge is designed to give the jury the option of manslaughter while still trying to keep the lid on the shit storm that the Revs. Sharpton and Jackass are praying boils over.
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I've been going through all the responses. This case has even hit the media on the other side of the ocean, including here in The Netherlands. The MSM here in Holland have more or less portrayed this as a racially motivated killing (of course mentioning that the gunman has not yet been tried, in a byline).
For what it's worth: I would like to see this as a shooting in the old days, the "Wild West": armed man shoots unarmed man. Should he just walk away without being tried, because of the fact that he claims to have shot in self defence? I think there should be some public investigation/trial/grand jury/proceeding or how you would want to call it in order to establish the facts.
However, having said that, I hope for him, as well as the entire coloured community in the US that that proceeding will be open, unbiassed and proper.
Ocin
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I've been going through all the responses. This case has even hit the media on the other side of the ocean, including here in The Netherlands. The MSM here in Holland have more or less portrayed this as a racially motivated killing (of course mentioning that the gunman has not yet been tried, in a byline).
For what it's worth: I would like to see this as a shooting in the old days, the "Wild West": armed man shoots unarmed man. Should he just walk away without being tried, because of the fact that he claims to have shot in self defence? I think there should be some public investigation/trial/grand jury/proceeding or how you would want to call it in order to establish the facts.
However, having said that, I hope for him, as well as the entire coloured community in the US that that proceeding will be open, unbiassed and proper.
Ocin
And that is what is happening right now, and has been since the start. The Grand Jury was not called, because the investigation shows no evidence of First Degree Murder. The problem is that the media will not let the system work. They want microwave justice in a crockpot system. The anti's want to compare carry and self defense as wild west justice: Maybe they should sit back and consider the parallels between their rapid conviction demands and the old lynch mobs. Check your history and you will find that the wild west gunfights mostly didn't happen, but lynch mob justice and mentality was common from the settlement of this land all the way to current time.
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The "wild west" wasn't actually that wild.
People started work before sun up so they didn't spend that much time raising hell.
Dodge City, or Tombstone were a hell of a lot safer than NY or Chicago, then or now.
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It is ironic that it is the Black community pushing for lynch mentality.
Are they fools, having forgotten what supporting that attitude cost them in the past?
Are they hypocrites decrying that mentality when they were the target, but quick to yell for a rope when it is someone else?
Or are they just vicious seeking revenge?
No matter which, it was gravely wrong before, is gravely wrong now and will be gravely wrong always.
My take is that with the "evidence" I have seen, odds are Zimmerman is guilty. Just like I felt OJ was guilty...but if I had been on OJ's jury with the facts I know, I would have voted not guilty. Too much proof of police tampering with evidence to allow me not to have a reasonable doubt about all the evidence.
But there needs to be a fair trial for Zimmerman, if that is possible any longer. And my hunch, again from what has been released is that there will not be enough evidence to convict him unless some eye witness to how the confrontation evolved comes forward.
That Zimmerman seemed aggressive in his surveillance of the kid and probably pushed it too far just doesn't cut it for removing reasonable doubt.
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It is ironic that it is the Black community pushing for lynch mentality.
Are they fools, having forgotten what supporting that attitude cost them in the past?
Are they hypocrites decrying that mentality when they were the target, but quick to yell for a rope when it is someone else?
Or are they just vicious seeking revenge?
No matter which, it was gravely wrong before, is gravely wrong now and will be gravely wrong always.
My take is that with the "evidence" I have seen, odds are Zimmerman is guilty. Just like I felt OJ was guilty...but if I had been on OJ's jury with the facts I know, I would have voted not guilty. Too much proof of police tampering with evidence to allow me not to have a reasonable doubt about all the evidence.
But there needs to be a fair trial for Zimmerman, if that is possible any longer. And my hunch, again from what has been released is that there will not be enough evidence to convict him unless some eye witness to how the confrontation evolved comes forward.
That Zimmerman seemed aggressive in his surveillance of the kid and probably pushed it too far just doesn't cut it for removing reasonable doubt.
Based on the facts I've seen Zimmerman probably prevented another burglary.
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I think the Murder2 charge is designed to give the jury the option of manslaughter while still trying to keep the lid on the shit storm that the Revs. Sharpton and Jackass are praying boils over.
Don't know about FL but in a lot of places you can only pass sentence on the original charge, not drop to a lower one. That's why in "typical" murder trials, they are charged with murder, manslaughter, and any other crime they can to have a better chance of conviction.
If Zimmerman is ONLY charged with murder and they can't convict on it, it's double jeopardy to try him for manslaughter. He CAN be charged with civil penalties though, which unfortunately he probably will.
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If he is found not guilty the Feds will probably go after him for "civil rights violations". They have done it in the past on a few cases.
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Don't know about FL but in a lot of places you can only pass sentence on the original charge, not drop to a lower one. That's why in "typical" murder trials, they are charged with murder, manslaughter, and any other crime they can to have a better chance of conviction.
If Zimmerman is ONLY charged with murder and they can't convict on it, it's double jeopardy to try him for manslaughter. He CAN be charged with civil penalties though, which unfortunately he probably will.
They need to charge with everything prior to going to trial. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that they are only charging Second Degree Murder and holding Manslaughter as a bargaining chip for plea agreement. Otherwise I would have thought they would have charged with both and let the jury decide which one.
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Don't know about FL but in a lot of places you can only pass sentence on the original charge, not drop to a lower one. That's why in "typical" murder trials, they are charged with murder, manslaughter, and any other crime they can to have a better chance of conviction.
If Zimmerman is ONLY charged with murder and they can't convict on it, it's double jeopardy to try him for manslaughter. He CAN be charged with civil penalties though, which unfortunately he probably will.
If he is found not guilty the Feds will probably go after him for "civil rights violations". They have done it in the past on a few cases.
Just like with the Rodney King trials. Keep trying them until you get the result the media wants. >:(
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He CAN be charged with civil penalties though, which unfortunately he probably will.
My understanding is that if he is not found guilty by way of self-defense, then he can not be sued.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html)
In fact, if he is found innocent (not guilty), then any civil suit and expenses will fall on Trayvon's family.
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but Trayvon's mom went ahead and trademarked his name, so when the "Justice for Trayvon" hoodies start getting cranked out and are on store shelves, she will have a lot of money rolling in to sue Zimmerman for wrongful death.
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Because they didn't arrest the guy in the beginning, and for the month that nobody outside the local media/community knew about it, I think it was a "relatively" clean case of self defense. I'm curious about why the Head of the Dept stepped aside though, unless he saw this mess headed his way..
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Because they didn't arrest the guy in the beginning, and for the month that nobody outside the local media/community knew about it, I think it was a "relatively" clean case of self defense. I'm curious about why the Head of the Dept stepped aside though, unless he saw this mess headed his way..
He made a wise choice stepping aside. Even if he made a perfect decision from the start, his being associated with the proceedings when they moved into the Circus Tent would only have added to the hoopla and controversy.
At least the current prosecutor can have as clean a slate as possible in a mud puddle.
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I just saw something that made me realize this Zimmerman kerfuffle is yet another tiny cog in the Master Plan. It is not about black or white, or Zimmerman or Martin or anything else. Remember, when dealing with leftoids, it is NEVER about what they say it is about. The situation is simply about what they are trying to achieve.
Enter today's AP wire story. From that story I offer you this:
"MIAMI (AP) — George Zimmerman persuaded the police not to charge him for killing unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, but the prosecutor has accused him of murder. Soon, armed with unparalleled legal advantages, Zimmerman will get to ask a judge to find the killing was justified, and if that doesn’t work, he’ll get to make the same case to a jury."
OK, I didn't think of this, but the article I got this from (http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/54222 (http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/54222)) brought it into focus for me.
This whole story is about the destruction of the rule of law. Lynch Zimmerman now and make the story go away. Oh, yeah, the leftoids want to use the law when it is in their favor, but if it is "wrong" in their eyes, they simply want the law ignored. A lot like bho is doing in the WH these days, and what the kongress kritters have been doing for decades.
By trumping the rule of law, they can re-institute the rule of man (their man, obviously, not a Constitutionalist) and thereby morph this country more easily into the totalitarian socialist/commie dream the Founders obviously meant it to be - according to them.
Dangerous times . . . . . .
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My take is that with the "evidence" I have seen, odds are Zimmerman is guilty. Just like I felt OJ was guilty...but if I had been on OJ's jury with the facts I know, I would have voted not guilty. Too much proof of police tampering with evidence to allow me not to have a reasonable doubt about all the evidence.
But there needs to be a fair trial for Zimmerman, if that is possible any longer. And my hunch, again from what has been released is that there will not be enough evidence to convict him unless some eye witness to how the confrontation evolved comes forward.
That Zimmerman seemed aggressive in his surveillance of the kid and probably pushed it too far just doesn't cut it for removing reasonable doubt.
Guilty of what exactly? I mean we are all guilty of something at sometime but what do you think he is guilty of? Murder 2? Manslaughter? Assault? Having a white, Jewish father? Obviously the "evidence" we have seen has been tampered with, cost one SOB his job at NBC (don't worry he/she will find employment in the MSM soon with a nice jump in pay), and the evidence doesn't matter right now anyway, its the seriousness of the charge which is-White man killing Black man solely because of his ethnicity.
I don't think he'll be found guilty based on the eye witness accounts that have come forward but more likely on the lynch mob mentality the MSM has stirred up over race. Zimmerman ought to hyphenate his last name to reflect his Latino heritage or just change it to his mothers surname and save himself from the public gallows.
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Guilty of what exactly? I mean we are all guilty of something at sometime but what do you think he is guilty of? Murder 2? Manslaughter? Assault? Having a white, Jewish father? Obviously the "evidence" we have seen has been tampered with, cost one SOB his job at NBC (don't worry he/she will find employment in the MSM soon with a nice jump in pay), and the evidence doesn't matter right now anyway, its the seriousness of the charge which is-White man killing Black man solely because of his ethnicity.
I don't think he'll be found guilty based on the eye witness accounts that have come forward but more likely on the lynch mob mentality the MSM has stirred up over race. Zimmerman ought to hyphenate his last name to reflect his Latino heritage or just change it to his mothers surname and save himself from the public gallows.
That would depend upon how the encounter moved to grappling distance. If Zimmerman was the one to cause that after following the kid around for awhile, he escalated the situation to a confrontation....then shot the kid when the kid reacted. It is likely Zimmerman made some comment or even an action to restrain or direct the kid to get out of the neighborhood. If it was verbal, I'd call it taunting and look for manslaughter. If it was physical, or if he drew on the kid, I'd be looking for Murder 2.
I have no legal experience and this is only what I see "likely" from what has been reported. No way to I say what I know is the end of the story...just what seems likely to have happened. If that was all the evidence presented at the trial and I was on the jury, I'd vote Not Guilty because there is nothing presented so far to indicate Zimmerman escalated the situation...and without such evidence, he is Not Guilty....which is not necessarily Innocent.
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That would depend upon how the encounter moved to grappling distance. If Zimmerman was the one to cause that after following the kid around for awhile, he escalated the situation to a confrontation....then shot the kid when the kid reacted. It is likely Zimmerman made some comment or even an action to restrain or direct the kid to get out of the neighborhood. If it was verbal, I'd call it taunting and look for manslaughter. If it was physical, or if he drew on the kid, I'd be looking for Murder 2.
I have no legal experience and this is only what I see "likely" from what has been reported. No way to I say what I know is the end of the story...just what seems likely to have happened. If that was all the evidence presented at the trial and I was on the jury, I'd vote Not Guilty because there is nothing presented so far to indicate Zimmerman escalated the situation...and without such evidence, he is Not Guilty....which is not necessarily Innocent.
Maybe. Maybe not. Note though that even Alan Dershowitz (who is a tool IMHO but seems to get the law pretty straight, or has in the past) noted that the affidavit with the charges was lame and amateurish. Not a good sign for the prosecution.
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Maybe. Maybe not. Note though that even Alan Dershowitz (who is a tool IMHO but seems to get the law pretty straight, or has in the past) noted that the affidavit with the charges was lame and amateurish. Not a good sign for the prosecution.
In no way did I intend what I posted to be how I thought the prosecutor should handle the case.
At best, it is Saturday Afternoon Quarterbacking. Guesses about what might happen.
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..., I'd vote Not Guilty because there is nothing presented so far to indicate Zimmerman escalated the situation...and without such evidence, he is Not Guilty....which is not necessarily Innocent.
If found not guilty that leaves the door open for the civil suit. Innocent closes that door.
If I was Zimmerman's Defender, I'd force a trial. I think a plea bargain should be off the table, since in a trial there is enough doubt to get an acquital, at least from what we've seen so far.
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If found not guilty that leaves the door open for the civil suit. Innocent closes that door.
If I was Zimmerman's Defender, I'd force a trial. I think a plea bargain should be off the table, since in a trial there is enough doubt to get an acquital, at least from what we've seen so far.
A jury doesn't have an Innocent option. Guilty, Not Guilty or throw it out.
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As I understand it this was a "gated" community and the Martin kid did not belong there.
So how did he get in ?
Why was he trespassing ?
If he had no ill intent, why did he react violently when confronted with these questions by some one the community had authorized to ask them ?
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He was visiting his father who was either living their or at his girl friend who lived their. Martin had walked over to a nearby ice house and was on his way back to the home.
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Solus,
You are missing the fact that Zimmerman is a part of Neighborhood Watch. A group that is instructed and advised by area law enforcement. What instructions does law enforcement give to members in this gated community? We also keep falling into the trap of the edited tapes of the conversation between Zimmerman and the operator. this is not cut and dried instigated by Mr. Zimmerman following Mr. Martin. This could actually end up being a case where there is a serious flaw in Neighborhood Watch that gets exposed.
As far as the civil suit - I would like to get some feedback from Haz or TW on the implications of Stand Your Ground here. My understanding is that Stand Your Ground is not about what happens early on. It is used during the trial as a part of the defense. And if it is like many other states, if found not guilty Stand Your Ground eliminates the possibility of a civil case being filed.
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He was visiting his father who was either living their or at his girl friend who lived their. Martin had walked over to a nearby ice house and was on his way back to the home.
So why did he kick Zimmerman's ass instead of simply telling him that ?
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So why did he kick Zimmerman's ass instead of simply telling him that ?
That's the point. We don't know what happened to bring on the confrontation....and may never know unless an eye witness turns up. Without any other eyewitness, Zimmerman's statement will be all that is entered into evidence.
It may be that Zimmerman went up to the kid, grabbed the kid by the neck put the gun to his had and tole him he was gonna be escorted out of the complex....the kid didn't like bing manhandled, grabed the gun and wailed on Zimmerman.
I am not saying that happened at all...but it is a possibility and it would put Zimmerman in the wrong...but there will need to be a witness.
The kid had every right to be there. He accompanied his dad to visit his girlfriend and went to the store and was drinking an Ice Tea and eating some kind of candy on the walk back when the confrontation occurred.
Zimmerman said the kid was acting suspiciously by walking in the rain...probably slowly because his dad told h im to get lost for a half an hour.
For some reason, they got close enough for the confrontation. Unless Zimmerman saw the kid in the commission of a crime, he had no business closing to where they could grapple...particularly when he was armed.
As far as police instructions, the police specifically told Zimmerman on the 911 call NOT to follow the kid. Friankly I would not have obeyed those instructions either, if I had spotted someone acting suspicious.....BUT, as a citizen, I have no right to confront someone unless they are in the process of commuting a crime.
From what the kid's girlfriend said of her conversation with the kid while Zimmerman was following him, he noticed Zimmerman and was trying to get away from him. If what she said is true.
To me with that being known, it appears the kid was trying to avoid the confrontation while Zimmerman seemed to be aggressively interested in what the kid was doing.
Now if I have to pick one of the two as the most likely instigator of the confrontation, would it be a kid visiting the neighborhood with his dad while walking down the street drinking ice tea and eating candy while talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone or a member of the neighborhood watch who felt suspicious enough of the kid to call 911, report him as looking suspicious and following the kid against the recommendations of the police?
From all of that, I put the odds on Zimmerman being more likely to have initiated the confrontation.
All that could change if we know what happened to cause the confrontation. Without that, there is no proof Zimmerman was the one to initiate and not the kid. So Zimmerman would be found not guilty.
The kid might have a list of offenses from robbery to knocking up girls on welfare, but he wasn't doing a single one of them in Zimmerman's neighborhood (as far as the facts we have show).
Is it possible the kid was the aggressor? Absolutely, but we have been given no information to lead to that conclusion. It might exist, probably in Zimmerman's statement, but that statement hasn't been made public..rightfully so.
As I said before, not much of what has been publicized matters..it all boils down to how the confrontation developed. Unless there is another eye witness, Zimerman's statement will be facts in that matter.
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I found a video at Front Sight that speaks to the consistency of Zimmerman's statement with the evidence found.
It also speaks to the whole Racist Circus, which should never be any but a very minor issue in any criminal trial.
As Piazza says, you don't see this video made widely available by the MSM.
The speaker does state that Zimmerman's statement is the only evidence of the confrontation and it is consistent with forensic findings.
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2012/04/16/front-sights-monday-blog-zimmerman-versus-martin/
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Solus, you've fallen into a number of traps, see bold below:
That's the point. We don't know what happened to bring on the confrontation....and may never know unless an eye witness turns up. Without any other eyewitness, Zimmerman's statement will be all that is entered into evidence.
It may be that Zimmerman went up to the kid, grabbed the kid by the neck put the gun to his had and tole him he was gonna be escorted out of the complex....the kid didn't like bing manhandled, grabed the gun and wailed on Zimmerman. - Conjecture
I am not saying that happened at all...but it is a possibility and it would put Zimmerman in the wrong...but there will need to be a witness.
The kid had every right to be there. He accompanied his dad to visit his girlfriend and went to the store and was drinking an Ice Tea and eating some kind of candy on the walk back when the confrontation occurred.
Zimmerman said the kid was acting suspiciously by walking in the rain...probably slowly because his dad told h im to get lost for a half an hour.
For some reason, they got close enough for the confrontation. Unless Zimmerman saw the kid in the commission of a crime, he had no business closing to where they could grapple...particularly when he was armed. - Probably, but we do not know how the Neighborhood Watch folks have been coached by the police. One of many missing pieces
As far as police instructions, the police specifically told Zimmerman on the 911 call NOT to follow the kid. Friankly I would not have obeyed those instructions either, if I had spotted someone acting suspicious.....BUT, as a citizen, I have no right to confront someone unless they are in the process of commuting a crime. - WRONG! The police did not tell him not to follow, a 911 dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that". (BTW, our "police' dispatcher handles police for 2 towns AND 2 counties AND ambulance AND 2 fire departments. They are not sworn officers, so they ain't police.) Hardly the same thing. And since the gated community is effectively off limits to non-residents, and since Zimmerman did not know he was a "guest", and since Zimmerman was the leader of the Watch, not just a member, he had every damn right to confront Martin, especially in light of the numerous burglaries this year.
From what the kid's girlfriend said of her conversation with the kid while Zimmerman was following him, he noticed Zimmerman and was trying to get away from him. If what she said is true. - This means nothing - a BG on the prowl for a score will do the exact same thing if they think they're being watched. And BGs have "girl friends" too.
To me with that being known, it appears the kid was trying to avoid the confrontation while Zimmerman seemed to be aggressively interested in what the kid was doing. - Part of Zimmerman's job description.
Now if I have to pick one of the two as the most likely instigator of the confrontation, would it be a kid visiting the neighborhood with his dad while walking down the street drinking ice tea and eating candy while talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone or a member of the neighborhood watch who felt suspicious enough of the kid to call 911, report him as looking suspicious and following the kid against the recommendations of the police? - see previous comments
From all of that, I put the odds on Zimmerman being more likely to have initiated the confrontation. - And just as likely that Zimmerman lost sight of Martin in some bushes, got out to find him and got jumped. Again, purely conjecture at this point.
All that could change if we know what happened to cause the confrontation. Without that, there is no proof Zimmerman was the one to initiate and not the kid. So Zimmerman would be found not guilty.
The kid might have a list of offenses from robbery to knocking up girls on welfare, but he wasn't doing a single one of them in Zimmerman's neighborhood (as far as the facts we have show). - We have a saying in IT - when you have 2 programs, and 1 accounts for 90% of the problems, where are you most likely to find the next problem? Statisitically, it ain't in the 10% program.
This is muddied somewhat since Zimmerman's background is not pristine either. Besides, what better place to boost high-priced gear than in a neighborhood you know, and can case while walking the street eating Skittles "minding your own business", and as an added benefit - you don't live there, so no worries about crapping in your own nest, so to speak.
Is it possible the kid was the aggressor? Absolutely, but we have been given no information to lead to that conclusion. It might exist, probably in Zimmerman's statement, but that statement hasn't been made public..rightfully so. - Nor anything to the contrary, not that Al "Tawana Brawley" Sharpton would ever volunteer such a thing.
As I said before, not much of what has been publicized matters..it all boils down to how the confrontation developed. Unless there is another eye witness, Zimerman's statement will be facts in that matter. - Along with the forensics which seem to support Zimmerman at this point - so far as we know.
Stop thinking like the 10-year old choir boy the MSM and Sharpton have portrayed him to be, and start thinking like a perp. Not saying Martin was a perp, but looking at it differently provides a completely different - and reasonable explanation for what happened. Everything you said is true, and everything I said is true. Especially the conjecture part.
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Probably, but we do not know how the Neighborhood Watch folks have been coached by the police. One of many missing pieces
Path posted this one in answer to many of Solus' questions and comments.
This is the major missing piece that I have been hanging most of my view of the defense on. Not only was he a part of Neighborhood Watch and trained by local law enforcement, but there is a wide variance between how different communities educate and operate their Neighborhood Watch groups. I am sure this will come into play during the trial, and it is one of the reasons ALL instructors must keep good records on their classes and students. Another instructor that will most likely be called in is the person that signed the bottom line of the paper presented to get his carry permit, and if he had multiple state permits every instructor will most likely be called.
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http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/zimmerman-apologises-to-trayvons-family/story-e6frfku0-1226335058847
Zimmerman apologises to Trayvon's family
AFTER more than a week in jail, George Zimmerman learnt yesterday that he will be granted bail on the second-degree murder charge he faces in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Kenneth Lester set Zimmerman's bail at $US150,000 ($145,600). Zimmerman will be placed on GPS monitoring.
Zimmerman arrived in court on Friday morning wearing a suit and handcuffs, with a chain across his waist. Also in the courtroom were Trayvon Martin's parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin.
Minutes before the judge ruled on his bail, Zimmerman took the stand and apologised to Martin's family.
"I did not know if he was armed or not," Zimmerman said of Martin, referring to the night of the March shooting. He said he was sorry for the Martin family's loss.
Asked why he had waited so long to apologise, Zimmerman said he had been told not to reach out to the family.
After brief testimony from Zimmerman, his lawyer argued that his bail should be set at $15,000. O'Mara cited Zimmerman's financial difficulties in arguing for the bail. He also pointed out that Zimmerman has co-operated with police.
Prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda argued that the court should consider that Martin had been "minding his own business" when he encountered Zimmerman and had not been committing a crime.
He asked for either no bail or a bail of $1 million.
State Attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath testified earlier that there was video footage of Martin buying Skittles and iced tea before the shooting. He also said that Martin was unarmed.
Under questioning by O'Mara, Gilbreath admitted that the state has no evidence about who started the fight. There was also no evidence that Zimmerman didn't walk back to his car after chasing Martin on foot, as the defendant has claimed.
However, he said that Zimmerman's statements, as well as his description of the injuries he suffered, are contradicted by other evidence in the case.
As the hearing began, O'Mara surrendered Zimmerman's passport. Then members of Zimmerman's family began testifying by phone.
The accused's mother, Gladys Zimmerman, said she was concerned for her son's safety, as the family has received threats. She said her son had always been very protective of people, regardless of race, and had worked as a mentor for children in need.
Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman, said he would take a second mortgage on his home to help secure his son's release on bail.
"I'm a disabled veteran, and don't have a great deal of income," the elder Zimmerman said. Of his son, he said, "I've never known him to be violent at all unless otherwise provoked, then he'd turn the other cheek."
with out reading all the threads about Zimmerman have we worked out do we think Good shot or Bad shot?
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Good
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ok, couple of weeks wait till court,
wonder if this will stop people being in neighbourhood watch??
http://www.news24.com/World/News/Trayvon-Martin-killer-pleads-not-guilty-20120424
Miami - The Florida neighbourhood watch volunteer charged with second-degree murder over the high-profile shooting of unarmed black teen Trayvon Martin entered a plea of not guilty on Monday.
"The defendant, by and through his undersigned attorney, enters a written plea of not guilty to the charges now pending against him," read a court document waiving George Zimmerman's right to appear at his 8 May arraignment.
The plea came hours after Zimmerman was released from jail on a $150 000 bond, pending trial, and driven to an undisclosed location after his lawyer requested that his whereabouts be kept private by the court.
Television pictures showed the 28-year-old, wearing jeans and a bulky brown jacket that appeared to conceal a bullet-proof vest, leaving a jail in Sanford, Florida shortly after midnight and stepping into a white car.
His release followed a dramatic court hearing on Friday in which he unexpectedly took the stand and apologised directly to the victim's parents, who dismissed it afterwards through a lawyer as insincere and "self-serving".
Prosecutors say 17-year-old Martin was simply "minding his own business" when he was accosted and shot dead by Zimmerman in late February after buying some candy and a bottle of iced tea from a local store in Sanford.
Racial profiling
Zimmerman maintains he was acting in self-defence as Martin assaulted him.
Martin's family and supporters allege he was a victim of racial profiling, and the case sparked angry demonstrations in black communities across the country when police initially decided not to press charges.
Sanford city commissioners voted on Monday to reject police chief Bill Lee's offer of resignation, meaning he will remain on administrative leave for the next three or four months, until an external investigation is completed.
Zimmerman, who surrendered his passport and is wearing electronic monitoring tags, is believed to have gone into hiding outside central Florida after receiving death threats over the killing of Martin on 26 February.
Martin's family said it respected the judicial process but were "devastated by him being able to walk the streets", attorney Daryl Parks told CNN.
"It's with a very, very heavy heart that they've seen him walk freely late last night back into the public," Parks said.
Sorry for loss
Zimmerman admits tracking Martin through a gated Sanford community after viewing him as suspicious, but insists he shot purely in self-defence after being assaulted.
Police initially declined to arrest him, citing Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law that allows deadly shooting if in self defence.
Zimmerman apologised to Martin's parents at Friday's hearing, telling them in his first public comments since the shooting: "I'm sorry for the loss of your son."
But the family expressed anger after the proceedings, both at the apology and at the judge's decision to allow Zimmerman to be released pending trial.
Prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda had urged the judge to deny bail or at least put it at $1m.
Judge Kenneth Lester ultimately set bail at $150 000 but imposed conditions including electronic GPS tracking, a dusk-to-dawn curfew and a requirement for him to report every three days to the authorities.
No direct evidence
Zimmerman had to post 10% of the bail amount, or $15 000, to make bail.
Dale Gilbreath, an investigator in the case, acknowledged at Friday's hearing that there was no direct evidence to say who threw the first blow in the confrontation, other than the fact Zimmerman had been following Martin.
If convicted, Zimmerman could face life in prison.
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http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0329/Trayvon-Martin-case-Three-key-questions-still-not-answered/What-was-the-condition-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-body
Trayvon Martin case: Three key questions still not answered
In the month since teenager Trayvon Martin was fatally shot by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman in Sanford, Fla., the case has become a national sensation. Daily leaks favorable to one side or another have swung perceptions of the incident back and forth. Given what is currently known, what are the key questions on which Mr. Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence could turn, and which may be eventually answerable by evidence?
1. Was George Zimmerman hurt?
Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, Craig Sonner, has said his client’s nose was broken in a fight with Trayvon. The police report of the incident, written up in the squad car that arrived in response, says Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head.
Yet police video taken Feb. 26, released to the news media March 29, shows an apparently uninjured Zimmerman arriving at police headquarters, hands cuffed behind his back. There are no bandages, no blood, and no swelling visible.
This question is important because it could help prove or disprove Zimmerman’s account of his encounter with Trayvon. He says Trayvon surprised him after he had returned to his vehicle, floored him with one punch, and then beat his head on the ground, according to the police incident report. A broken nose and cuts on the back of the head would be consistent with this account.
On the other hand, if Zimmerman were unhurt or not seriously injured it would call his truthfulness into question. Mr. Sonner said March 29 on the "Today" show that the video is “grainy,” and that his client could have been cleaned up in the squad car. But Trayvon’s family noted that in the tape Zimmerman does not look like someone who recently was fighting for his life.
“I believe that this video is icing on the cake,” said Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon’s mother.
It is likely that at a trial the facts could be established concerning the extent of Zimmerman’s injuries. Responding officers would have to testify about what the neighborhood watch captain looked like when they found him, and whether they offered him aid. As "Today" show host Matt Lauer noted March 29, there should be X-rays or other medical evidence if Zimmerman sought treatment for a broken nose.
2. Is 'DeeDee' telling the truth about the phone call?
Trayvon’s 16-year-old girlfriend has been identified in the media only as “DeeDee.” She has said she was on the phone with Trayvon in his final moments. He said he was being followed and was trying to get away, in her account.
In an interview with ABC News published March 29, DeeDee said she heard Trayvon turn around and ask someone why he was following him. She heard someone say, “What are you doing around here?” or words to that effect. Then she heard someone pushed to the ground before the connection was severed.
She also said she has not been interviewed by police.
Cellphone records should establish whether this phone call occurred, and when. At a trial, prosecutors should be able to determine whether DeeDee is telling the truth about the timing of the phone call, in relation to the timing of the altercation. While that won’t prove that her account of the conversation is true, it would be a point in her favor. And DeeDee’s account could be disproved if the cellphone records don’t match up.
ABC News reported March 29 that it had obtained phone records showing that DeeDee called Trayvon at 7:12 p.m. on the day he was killed, five minutes before police arrived, and remained on the line until moments before he was shot.
3. What was the condition of Trayvon Martin's body?
While much attention has focused on whether George Zimmerman showed evidence of a fight, less has been said about the condition of Travyon Martin’s body. Forensic evidence should be able to establish whether he participated in a hand-to-hand fight with Mr. Zimmerman. At the least he would have sustained bruising to his own hands and body consistent with an attack, if Zimmerman’s account is true.
Gunshot evidence should also offer some rough guide as to his and Zimmerman’s relative positions when he was shot, although there are limits as to what this would tell detectives in regard to Zimmerman’s veracity.
According to CBS News, Sanford police officers interviewed at least six witnesses in the wake of the killing. None saw the beginning of the fight, or the gunshot, according to CBS News. But their stories, compared with the hard evidence generated by attempting to answer the previous questions, could provide a context bearing on what happened.
Much about this case remains mysterious, of course. Did Trayvon really tell Zimmerman that “you’re going to die now,” as Zimmerman’s father, Robert Zimmerman, said in an interview with a Florida TV station aired March 29. How could the lighter Trayvon pummel the much heavier, older Zimmerman, as the latter maintains?
Sanford police have now turned the case over to local prosecutors, who are in essence reinvestigating the evidence to see if Zimmerman should be charged. The FBI has begun a civil rights investigation. If there is a trial, real facts bearing on answers to the above questions will be produced.
Currently, the Trayvon Martin killing is being litigated in the court of public opinion. Amid the cacophony, it’s worth remembering that George Zimmerman’s fate may ultimately be determined in a court of law.
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Here's an intersting article from those evil racist right wingers at Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
Hat Tip: Dutchman6. (get well soon)
MP
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Here's an intersting article from those evil racist right wingers at Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
Hat Tip: Dutchman6. (get well soon)
MP
Long, but worth reading.
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From the Desk of:
L. Brent Bozell, President
Media Research Center
May 3, 2012
Dear Roger,
NBC News has been caught again. A second edit of the George Zimmerman 9-1-1 call was discovered and a reporter was quietly let go, but NBC has yet to apology to their viewers.
NBC has now fired three people from two different offices over at least two different edits of George Zimmerman’s now infamous 9-1-1 call prior to the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. Both edits were clearly designed to portray Zimmerman as a racist while raising tensions in an already volatile situation. This latest firing from NBC once again goes unexplained. The Media Research Center went on the record after uncovering their first edit that NBC is a network out of control point that their two-sentence (non)apology hidden on their website, was an insult.
The truth has been withheld from NBC’s own viewers now for more than one month. Do the network executives at NBC think that this is acceptable? What about the board and shareholders of Comcast? Is it acceptable for a news organization to consciously and constantly lie to its viewers?
NBC News president Steve Capus admitted that they "probably" should have apologized on-air; NBC still has yet to do so. Even the local NBC affiliate that doctored the clip has fired the offender and apologized and retracted on-air.
Please take a moment to contact the Board of Directors at Comcast - NBC’s parent company - and tell them to clean house! If you’ve already called, emailed or written board members - please do so again!
NBC is playing with fire by altering these tapes to serve their liberal agenda. Racial tensions are being inflamed causing a dangerous situation across our country.
Tell Comcast’s board that you demand a full apology, new leadership and honest reporting from NBC. Otherwise Comcast’s reputation will be sullied by NBC’s irresponsible actions.
Thank you for standing with us,
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Because they didn't arrest the guy in the beginning, and for the month that nobody outside the local media/community knew about it, I think it was a "relatively" clean case of self defense. I'm curious about why the Head of the Dept stepped aside though, unless he saw this mess headed his way..
This and the fact that the police told Martin's parents that the reason they didn't arrest Z was because of his "clean record". LIES. He has been described as "Jekyll and Hyde" by a precious co-worker where he was fired for too aggressive behavior.he had been arrested and charged with Domestic Violence and had a DV Restraining Order issued against him as well as Resisting Arrest with Violence. Obviously, his father - retired VA Magistrate - intervened to have the charges reduced/dropped but the Restraining Order stuck. So tell me? HOW COULD HE EVEN HAVE A GUN, MUCH LESS CARRY?
There were three other witnesses: Te girl/young woman who had been on the phone with Trayvon and two others who called 911. None were involved before deciding to cut Z loose.
There had been complaints - some files with the Sanford PD - about Z's "aggressive" watching of persons he thought suspicious - all Black according to some.
Now it's been alluded to that the current police chief was hired to assist mending the sore racial history/relations with the minority community. Who were the officers involved? We're they involved in the investigation? And why is it the Chief wishes to step down? What does he know?
So as a gun owner I won't jump to the man's aid. He made ONE/ maybe TWO HUGE errors: he had NO NEED to continue following T and the Dispatcher reiterated this to him. He then pursues Trayvon when the kid runs. WTF? Trayvon is on the phone according to his girlfriend and she hears the earbud drop, two screams and a gunshot.
I have no evidence that Z woke up with murder on his mind. I do think he INITIATES the conflict by his actions. Trayvon had every right to stand his ground, too.
And didn't his father live in that community? Or was it adjacent to that community?
If u ask me George's father and the DA and Prosecutor had some conversations - again - to keep his none too bright son from crashing and burning.
Yes the Black Community has been shat upon since... The Beginning so there is COLLECTIVE Anger. I understand.
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The words Z used were:
THESE
F'n
Garbled
Not
IT'S
F'n
Garbled
From that he did not say, " THESE F'n cold." Horribly incorrect grammar...
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Was that one of the NBC versions of the 911 tapes you heard?
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Tyler, I think Mjolnir is either a troll or he did not read Bic's link to the Reuters article.
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He(she?) has a total of four posts. And none of them are gun related.
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Mjolnor...WTF??? This is a firearm forum where we all discuss some other things sometimes but you...have you ever cleared a pistol or sighted in a rifle? Do you know anything at all about 5.56 vs .223? How 'bout a little gun stuff? Or are you just a Martin family spokesperson?
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And none of them are gun related.
Lol look at most of my posts ;)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Z did NOT apologize!
"He said he was sorry for the Martin family's loss".
BIG difference.
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Z did NOT apologize! BIG difference.
"Sorry you lost your son.
Glad my neighbors or I didn't lose our stereo and TV.
This time."
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Mjolnir,
You have a flaw in your entire train of rant: You claim that Mr. Zimmerman was not arrested. What do you call it when a person is cuffed at the scene; stuffed in the back of a police squad car; taken to the police station; escorted through the station with an officer leading the procession, an officer leading the person and a third officer trailing, and they are all out of reach of the suspect; and photographed, processed and questioned. There is a difference between arrested and being held pending possible charges. Mr. Zimmerman was arrested, questioned and released, but he was still being tracked by law enforcement.
If you had any understanding of our system you would remember that you can only hold a person for so long with out charging them. Once they had enough evidence to support charges Mr. Zimmerman was brought back in (or contacted, and he came in on his own), and at that time he was charged.
To my fellow loyal forum members,
I know I may be feeding a troll, but I think he has planted his seeds of hate and fled. To return this to a Second Amendment related site, I beg everyone to view the following video (hat tip to our leather crafter Andy). It is over 13 minutes long, but one of the best videos I have viewed in a while. Also, make note of the story of Mr. Lewis of West Des Moines, IA for the next time someone in a debate claims nobody has been wrongly held for self defense.
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What a great perspective, and reality...From Mas....He keeps it right on target. Tells it like it is, always has...
Thanks m58....
The troll should be done here if he was smart enough to watch it...
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The latest, now their going after his wife as well.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/zimmerman-wife-arrest-perjury-charges-210257372.html
The wife of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman was arrested on Tuesday, charged with perjury in connection with her testimony during her husband's bond hearing.
Shellie Zimmerman, 25, was taken into custody at her home by deputies, and was taken to the John E. Polk Correctional Facility--the same jail in which George Zimmerman is being held on a second-degree murder charge stemming from the Feb. 26 shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
[Slideshow: George Zimmerman surrenders]
Shellie Zimmerman's bond was set at $1,000, the Seminole County Sheriff's Office said. She met conditions for the bail and was released. She will be arraigned July 31.
George Zimmerman's $150,000 bond was revoked and he was sent back to jail on June 3 after a judge said that Zimmerman and his wife misled the court about their finances. Prosecutors argued that they did not disclose the $135,000 they had collected in donations for his defense at the initial bond hearing.
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this is going to be very very messy
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From what I've read this bit about perjury over the bail money results from the Z's having received a lot of web donations for his defense it the case. Their attorney says he can show that they were restricting the use of those donated funds for what they were intended, his defense, and not for others payments, including bail.
If that is accepted, there is no perjury charge to be made. Their testimony about finances was accurate.
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From what I've read this bit about perjury over the bail money results from the Z's having received a lot of web donations for his defense it the case. Their attorney says he can show that they were restricting the use of those donated funds for what they were intended, his defense, and not for others payments, including bail.
If that is accepted, there is no perjury charge to be made. Their testimony about finances was accurate.
Completely irrelevant. The .gov is bound and determined to convict to show they are tough on (white on black) crime. They are also applying the screws to Zimmerman to get him to cop a plea.
Any wonder why people in this country do not trust the legal system?
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I wonder what they will do to this guy.
As you listen to him remember that he is describing exactly what happened in South Boston since forced bussing in the 70's.
To give just one example of what causes "white flight".
Blacks ‘Ruin Neighborhoods’: See the Man-on-the-Street Interview So Racist It Overshadowed an Arson Case
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/blacks-ruin-neighborhoods-see-the-man-on-the-street-interview-so-racist-it-overshadowed-an-arson-case/
Back in May of 2011, an arsonist lit up South Buffalo’s Mackinaw Street by lighting the home of a recent African immigrant on fire. The arsonist himself was not captured, but as police determined that the case was one of “Arson for hire,” this ended up being less of a pressing concern than finding the man who had hired the arsonist to set the fire. To that end, the police arrested 58-year-old Michael Fijal and charged him with the crime, even though he hadn’t purposefully set the blaze himself.
Now, perhaps unsurprisingly, Federal investigators suspect that the crime might have been a hate crime, and are looking for evidence of this. Fijal has not yet been tried.
However, none of this is the reason this story of a depraved, but unfortunately not uncommon crime has captured a much wider audience than just the residents of South Buffalo. No, what made this story become so notable is a truly extraordinary man-on-the-street interview that the local TV station WIVB-TV conducted with one of the unnamed residents of South Buffalo. Watch the original report that WIVB-TV put out on the subject here:
Even from the short clip included in this initial report, it’s clear that the reporter, Ed Drantch, was having trouble believing what he was hearing. And indeed, those few seconds of tape sparked a media scandal, with some people believing the man was a symbol of all the horrid irredeemable racism that has yet to be solved in American culture, and others believing him to be a blunt truth-teller. Pressure mounted until the station, WIVB-TV, had to release the full, unedited interview with the man. Watch it here:
As you see, the full context of the interview does this unnamed would-be racial realist no favors. He explicitly singles out African Americans and excoriates them for “wrecking” parts of Buffalo, and does it with such blase calm that it’s difficult not to be a little unnerved. The interviewer, Drantch, has trouble even getting his questions out at points. And more troubling still is the interviewee’s assertion that “A lot of people feel this way; they just won’t say it.”
It was at this point that the story began to go viral, as a local radio show hosted by two shock jocks calling themselves Shredd and Ragan picked it up and actually managed to get hold of the man involved, who seemed to want to correct some of what was said. However, when the interview opened, it became clear that far from wanting to correct his own sentiments, he just wanted to correct the original report for getting his neighborhood wrong. The two hosts didn’t let him get off with just that, though, and managed to get through a deeply uncomfortable interview which outed the man in question not so much as a hardened bigot, but simply as a very excessively sheltered human being. He also gave his name, which out of respect for his safety, we are not printing.
Listen here.
However, at this stage it isn’t just a pair of random radio hosts who want to talk to this strange, “Gangs Of New York”-esque figure. In fact, a prominent local politician wants to have a few words with him. Ellicott District Councilman Darius Pridgen, an African-American, issued a challenge to the man, which was faithfully reported by WIVB:
From the transcript of Councilman Pridgen’s letter provided by WIVB:
Thank you for your coverage which exposed the views of a gentleman who expressed his very strong views concerning minorities and racial separation. This was a very difficult story to watch but one that I feel is very necessary if our city is to ever move forward in race relations.
The coverage of this subject is too important to isolate to one story centering around the gentleman’s comments. Leaving this as an open ended story may nurture more racial hatred and racism in our city. I believe this is the right time to take a giant step forward in bringing a clearer appreciation to the issue of housing discrimination, prejudice and racism in Western New York. I am asking that your station host a discussion on race in Western New York. I think that an intelligent, moderated, constructive conversation has the potential to heal, bring understanding and move our community in a positive direction.
Finally I would like to reach out to the gentleman who started this very important conversation to invite him on a very friendly tour through the Eastside to show him portions that he may have never seen and in turn take a tour of his neighborhood and hear his concerns. I would pay full expense for the tour, protect his identity, and agree to share our, hopefully adjusted, insights publicly if he would allow.
Darius G. Pridgen
Where will this odd case of racial animus go from here? Who knows. But those looking for a symbol of persistent racist tension in American society need look no further.
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The path to 270 electoral college votes goes through florida.
In the meantime, the obama/holder administration will keep fanning the flames of racial and class divide.
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Zimmerman Passed Two Lie Detector Tests in Trayvon Martin Case
George Zimmerman passed a pair of lie detector tests in February just one day after killing unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Here's what Zimmerman answered:
Did you confront the guy you shot? (No.)
And were you afraid for your life when you shot the guy? (Yes.)
http://www.newsmax.com/US/US-Neighborhood-Watch/2012/06/26/id/443555?s=al&promo_code=F4F4-1
His answer to the first question is the missing piece of evidence I needed to see to fully believe Zimmerman was innocent. Had I been on the jury, I would have voted Not Guilty without this bit of evidence, but would have had some doubts. I never doubted Zimmerman shot in self defense but I did think it likely he had done something to precipitate the incident.
Also note that the lie detector tests were given 1 day after the shooting. Don't know how this will affect the trial, but it sure vindicates the police in not pressing charges. His story was backed up immediately by two lie detector tests.
The prosecutor must have know of these tests so I'd say the filing of charges was to head off the street violence....or at least postpone it till after the trial.
Will be interesting to see how the MSN reports this one.
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Will be interesting to see how the MSN reports this one.
They'll put their "Fast and Furious" reporting team on it.