The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: nosimij on April 17, 2012, 06:07:09 PM
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I Just last week received a Lee turret Press kit, the low end one. I have reloaded my first batch of 9mm rounds over the weekend. All appeared to go within reason 20 rounds in 3 hours. I am sure my speed will improve, but i am worried about quality. The consistency of the powder measure is the biggest thing. I may be over reacting but I am thinking that I have have an issue.
1) The table of which disk hole to use for a specific powder at a specific weight was WAY off. I was supposed to be throwing 3.5 Grains but it was consistently measuring 2.3. I did make sure that the hopper was 75% full so gravity had help. I then pulled the turret and dumped the powder for the third time, first 2 were to see that I had it installed correctly, and moved to the opening that was supposed to throw .9Grmore, my difference. It through 4.0 since that was mid range I left it. I measured every one of my 20 rounds and got between 3.8 and 4.3. That is a .5gr difference. I am used to that with my Mec shotgun powder measure but that is ~20Gr of Red Dot so the percentage of difference is a lot less. Is this typical, something to worry about or some where in between. Is this something that will break/wear in?
has anyone used the "Lee Auto-Disk Adjustable Powder Charge Bar" in place of the Disk? I am betting that this would solve the disassemble to "dial in" the powder charge, but would it give a consistent throw? I am thinking that the disassemble savings would be worth the money alone. i do not like the remove the screw form the plastic part and then run it back it.
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Do yourself a favor and buy a powder measure like this one.It will give you a more consistent charge than the auto disc will and they last almost forever if cared for properly.
(http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_749007119_1.jpg)
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=37390/avs|Manufacturer_1=RCBS/Product/RCBS-Uniflow-Powder-Measure
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Do yourself a favor and buy a powder measure like this one.It will give you a more consistent charge than the auto disc will and they last almost forever if cared for properly.
(http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_749007119_1.jpg)
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=37390/avs|Manufacturer_1=RCBS/Product/RCBS-Uniflow-Powder-Measure
Like you I just started reloading and I checked several of my charges using the powder measure Majer posted above and they were pretty close. In fact when I shot them across a chrono I only had a 35 fps variation for a 200 grain 45 ACP cast bullet at 809-844 fps for 5 rounds.
I don't know about you but I enjoy reloading almost as much as shooting and I'm looking forward to working up some rifle rounds when I get the opportunity.
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Send it back to Lee! I do not know the reliability of Lee powder measures, but with Hornady, RCBS and Dillon once the adjustment is set they stay put. I check mine at the beginning of each run and after every 500 rounds (about hourly), and I seldom need to adjust anything.
Your Lee powder measure is defective and should not be used!
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There is not a problem with your equipment based on your post.
I have been using two of these for a long time in progressive presses. One set for 45ACP and one for 9mm, they both work very well once set up. You need to understand that what you are looking for is repeatability of charge weight and not an absolute volume. Reloading data is set up on charge weight not on volume. Powder density can change based on a number of factors including Lot# and humidity. I view the recommended disk volume as a starting point with the goal being to get a disk that gives me the charge weight in the table. Richard Lee's book on reloading is great and explains all this very clearly.
With my two units, once I found the right disk to give the desired weight. I routinely get 0.05grain repeatability (I measure this by cycling 10 charges into a film canister weighing it and comparing multiple batches to address my scale's 0.1grain accuracy) 5 samples (i.e., 50 charges) compared will quickly give you a sense of the error per charge. (While I am an engineer, I did not do all the quality statistics to get standard deviation, etc. since this is a HOBBY, get over it any quality nerds in the crowd)
I have been working off the same 8# jug of powder so I have not had to recalibrate yet. I do repeat the test any time I start reloading again after a long layoff (just cause checking is easy and more fun than wishing I had later) Never seen a problem and none of Mr Murphy's gremlins have come by so far to screw with my equipment while I was away.
As a safety engineer I much prefer SIMPLE over adjustable. While I have never used the units with the micro adjustment, I would wonder how you know that it has not moved during use without repeated check weighing. A recent American Handgunner mag had a story by one of their writers where he had that exact problem and had to break down a few hundred rounds he had just loaded. Better than shooting a overly hot load! As a professional worrier I like simple!
I like my Lee presses and love the price since I bought a 2nd one and keep them set for the two cartridges I shoot all the time. All for about 1/2 the price of a Dillion. Yes they are not built like a tank like the Dillion but Lee discusses this in his book and I think makes a good case for his approach.
As beginner, read a lot, reload a little and then read a lot more. Lots of good info on the web.
Good luck
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Joe G makes a great point...the holes in the disc are not precision weight measures, they move a volume of powder, so the number will change with the powder. I do the same with my pistol ammo...I have a target weight of powder and I switch around 'till I get near my target. I'm not loading sniper rounds so a few grains here and there aren't going to hurt. PLUS I have found fairly consistent charges with my Lee equipment. I can't say it has ever been a problem.
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I Agree with Joe G. I use the Lee Auto Disk too, and I've just made my own charts. The tool throws consistent powder, you just have to find the weight based on the powder you are using. I'm using Bullseye powder and for my .40 S&W I'm using I think the .37 hole and getting 3.4 grains. I used to reweigh every 10 - 20 loads, but I've backed off to 2 per 50 (first and last). It's been very good.
Your speed will pickup over time. Over all I'm fine with the Lee press, especially for the price point. If I ramp up my shooting again though I will be getting a true progressive.
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Actually, I suggest you sell the Lee and buy a Dillon.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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I have a lee auto press set up for 9mm and use the disc measure system, I found that I needed to find the right disc hole for the right powder charge, its a bit of mucking around to find out what hole throws what weight but when you do you leave it alone and just reload. Its very consistant and have loaded shitloads of 9mm and never had an issue. (my first press and its still going years later)
I also have a Hornady LnL for other calibres, if I had to buy again I would just buy the LnL as it can reload everything, also have had a simplex press, Lee Turret, lee classic etc etc.
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I've not used the Lee disc measure, but I have used the RCBS rotary.
One thing I learned to do for consistent charges was to tap the handle at the top and bottom of it's movement in order to "jiggle" the power for a clean flow into the measure and then into the case.
Of course, this tap had to be consistent. I would use a double-tap at the top and bottom of the movement, keeping it all at the same speed and force for the taps.
I would throw a single charge and weight it to get my first go at the micrometer setting, then throw 10 loads and measure to see that the average was where I wanted it and that my movement was consistent also. After the cases were loaded, I'd throw another 10 charges as a double check before seating bullets.
This was when I was using a manual press. The lack of checking between each operation is one of the drawbacks of using a progressive press. However, with my 550 and then my 650 I spent time testing and checking without loading bulets until I became confident the equipment was doing it's job. I would still run 10 cases without bullets to check for average load before starting and another 10 after to be sure it had not changed. I never did have to pull any rounds because of drift. That makes the 500+ rounds/hour of the 650 worth it.
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I have 2 Lee autodisks I have been using for 5 years now. I wouldn't take anything for mine. I have loaded thousands of .40,9mm.10mm,38 spl, and 357 magnum with no issues. Once set up I can load 50 rounds in 5-6 minutes. I do size and prime in a seperate step just my preferance. I have found some powders you will have to use a larger hole than whats on the chart but the auto disk is very accurate and consistent after it's set up. Bullseye meters better than anything I have tried followed by unique and power pistol. You just have to make sure that it is set up and makes a full stroke. I honestly am getting ready to order 2 more so I don't have to change the set up when changing cartridges. I will try the adjustable charge bar on my next one just so I can work down some target loads. I know Lee is cheaper than other brands but I think it gets a bum rap sometimes. My loads are just as accurate and reliable as the guys I shoot with that use Dillon.
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This thread started me thinking of an EOTWAWKI reloading setup....
I'll start another thread to see what I can learn.
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I just wanted to throw out an update since I am still tracking and doing 100% inspection on every load I make.
I have now loaded 514 9mm rounds using 3 different loads. I have switched to the adjustable charge bar in the powder measure. Running the screws in and out of the plastic to set my powder is not, in my opinion, a way to see that my powder measure last tens of years.
I have just spent some time reviewing the data I have collected.
13 reloading sessions
514 rounds reloaded
0.12 grains deviation from average for that loading session
0.39 Grains Maximum deviation from the average of that loading session
0.14 average Standard Deviation
I do know that there are some out of tolerance loads that did not make it into these calculations. I am doing a 100% measurement on all of my loads so no high or low charge goes through, because of the monitoring.
Looking closely at the data and the measurement process I do see that there is likely some errors that are appearing as a result of them. I noted that for some reason there were no 0.10 differences form the average however there were 42 for .09 and 28 for 0.11. There is a similar anomaly around 0.20 which is bracketed by 17 and 13. These are the only 2 0s in the first 1/4 of a grain difference from average. The most common difference by far is 0.8 Grains.
It looks like I can count on my powder measure, press and loading processes to create loads that are within 0.4 grains of powder. A total variation of 0.8 grains of powder must be considered in the selection of my target powder weight.
I must clarify that my measurement method is a calculation/measurement of my powder weight.
I measure the primed brass.
I measure the case with powder and then subtract the two to get the powder weight. This is to avoid spillage or powder sticking to the case as I dump it into the sale.
The same process is followed, out of laziness this time, to get the bullet weight. The weight of the case with powder is then subtracted for the weight of the completed round.
I am using a Lee turret press with the auto index removed so it operates like a single stage press. Until I am sure I will not get out of spec loads I will continue to do it this way.
After drafting this i decided to go back and look at my scale. I did an abbreviated gauge R&R and I see that my measurements are only consistent to .2 or .3 grains. I measured the weight of 20 115gr bullets 5 times each in a random order. I am not please looking at my results. I have a second digital scale, which eats button batteries, I can try.
Learn a lesson from me check your equipment for consistency.
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After drafting this i decided to go back and look at my scale. I did an abbreviated gauge R&R and I see that my measurements are only consistent to .2 or .3 grains. I measured the weight of 20 115gr bullets 5 times each in a random order. I am not please looking at my results. I have a second digital scale, which eats button batteries, I can try.
Learn a lesson from me check your equipment for consistency.
Yes I have been struggling with loading some 556 and weighing every round. After a while I decided my inexpensive franklin electronic scale was the culprit. It would run fine for a while and then start to drift on the tare weight. Of course I assumed it was all the other equipment first and so I got some great troubleshooting experience with the powder system.
I now have the following scale procedure.
Swapped out the batteries.
keep the scale in the house between sessions to keep it warm.
Turn off the blue LED light to reduce power draw (yes i know it is minimal)
If I get an odd result I recheck zero and span.
I got much better results doing this.
The problem is that cheap scales are cheap! The strain gauges they use are good but not great and they likely have some drift as they warm up. Looking at the options on Midway left me thinking that even the $300 units are probably about the same. High quality lab scales are about 20X these prices depending on the features and tolerances.
Buying a second scale leaves you with the classic problem of which number to believe.
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(http://www.hornady.com/store/images/T/t-85819.jpg)
http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Auto-Charge-dispenser/
Picked up one of these yesterday for $200!
Tried it out last night on 20 rounds of .308 Match. I couldn't be happier!
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Just a bump for any one following this as a troubleshooting tool.
I was speaking to another reloader at the club over the holiday and he advised me to check the spring on the through die powder measure. I loaded some on Sunday night and I watched the powder measure sliding. It did not return all the way all the time. I have applied a layer of graphite to the sliding surfaces to reduce the friction. I wanted to avoid a liquid so that it does not collect dust in my basment and make things worse.
JoeG
I do a simular thing with my scales I pull ethe battery out completely between usages. I also do that with my calapers. There is a great differance in battery life. I used to go through a set of batteries every time I went to reload now they go 6 months or so.