The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on May 09, 2012, 11:07:22 AM
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Rob posted this on FB via his I.C.E. page....very interesting, and something he has mentioned several times on here in the past.
Also, here is an article on the video by Grant Cunningham on the issue:
http://grantcunningham.com/blog_files/716793598a5a1fa24cb3b5a2b1756e47-1017.html
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nothin says 1911 like the good ole Government model ;D
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nothin says 1911 like the good ole Government model ;D
Yes Sir,,,,and my compacts/sub-compacts are not of a 1911 platform....
I did inherit my Fathers Colt Mustang Pocketlite, in ,380. (uber mini 1911), however, I do not carry it. Nor would I subject it to a Pincus firing line.
My guess is "K**ber" will not be sending Rob a Christmas Card this year.... ::)
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Two things the Pincus ain't short on is ego and opinions! He's had a hard on for the little pocket Kimbers for some time now as I recall. Though I doubt I'll ever buy or need a baby 1911, we don't have any other information other than 300 rounds fired to explain the problems.
Limp wrist, re-loaded ammo, dirty, dry, home smithing, etc....what were the circumstances? I've seen problems at the range from literally everything at one time or another.
Even MB said a few weeks ago that eventually everything is going to malfunction that's made by man! This time, it was fortunate to have a camera close at hand and he made a point to put the manufacturers name real close.
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I saw this on another forum and managed to resist posting on it there - but I can't let it slide twice.
This is about choosing the wrong weapon for the task at hand. What Rob is teaching is essentially a combat handgun course where hundreds (to thousands) of rounds go through the gun in a very short time. Sub-compact 1911s (or any other sub-compact) are notoriously hard on recoil springs and many manufacturers recommend changing them at some ridiculous (300 rounds?) interval. It is like taking your 12" chain saw to a lumberjack competition. Wrong tool for the event.
A well maintained sub-compact is a perfectly viable self defense weapon. That doesn't mean that it is the tool for post-apocalyptic street clearing activities.
A handgun is a tool. If you are going to use it, it is your responsibility to know how it works, maintain it, and know how to use it.
I think Rob would better served to advise his students before they show up that the sub-compact is not the right tool for his course.
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^^^^^^^^^^^Bingo!
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Rob did say the incident on the video was representative of what occurs with sub-compact 1911s at every training event he gives where they are present.
So it is not just those 300 rounds out of that lone gun...it was just a sample of what is happening often.
I believe Ichiban probably got it right...you don't use a sub-compact as a main duty pistol.
Then again, it might be that you want a good sub-compact .45 caliber pistol, you start with a Glock 21 ;D ;D ;D
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I think Ichiban was on point when he mentioned using the wrong tool for the task at hand. I nearly took the CFS course at my range a few years ago (with the Pincus as the main instructor) until I learned how much time and ammo I would be committing to. IIRC, it was 1.2K to 1.5K of ammo over four days and four days off work. For me that was nearly 2400 bucks!! Can I expect any autoloader to put up with that much abuse over four days of shooting without proper maintenance and cleaning.
I can already shoot! At what point does any particular firearm require change out of critical components to maintain critical function? Can anyone answer that? Doubtful!
Know your, and your equipments limitations and go from there. The Pincus's of the industry won't make a dime unless they can convince you you're unprepared for any "critical incident"!
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I think Ichiban was on point when he mentioned using the wrong tool for the task at hand. I nearly took the CFS course at my range a few years ago (with the Pincus as the main instructor) until I learned how much time and ammo I would be committing to. IIRC, it was 1.2K to 1.5K of ammo over four days and four days off work. For me that was nearly 2400 bucks!! Can I expect any autoloader to put up with that much abuse over four days of shooting without proper maintenance and cleaning.
I can already shoot! At what point does any particular firearm require change out of critical components to maintain critical function? Can anyone answer that? Doubtful!
Know your, and your equipments limitations and go from there. The Pincus's of the industry won't make a dime unless they can convince you you're unprepared for any "critical incident"!
There are catalogs full of absolute "must have" gear for any type of survival situation.
Oddly enough our ancestors did quite nicely with pointy sticks and fire.
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There are catalogs full of absolute "must have" gear for any type of survival situation.
Oddly enough our ancestors did quite nicely with pointy sticks and fire.
I still carry a pointy stick.....it's called a Shillelagh! 8)
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I respect a lot of what RP says and teaches, but like all others that speak to the public you need to look at the full picture. Rob attacks the sub-compact 1911, and specifically the Kimber. He not only went after them on facebook, but he made a youtube video of his dislike. But he also does not like ANY 1911, and he has posted that in the past. As I recall he bleeds Glock.
I was thinking the same earlier this evening while watching a shooting show. We have a debate going on about laser sighting on another thread. There was a professional shooter who just happens to be sponsored by a laser sight company. He promotes laser sights in both commercials and in his "how to" segments. Do you think that his paycheck might affect his opinion of laser sights?
When choosing any product listen to the experts, but think! God gave us all brains, and if we don't use them it is our own fault.
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Another issue with the short barreled 1911s is the bull barrel. I can strip and clean a full size very quickly and easily, but a bull barrel is no small task, and one that requires a tiny Allen wrench. Here is a video of what is involved: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO-7ZEEQF-g&feature=related
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When choosing any product listen to the experts, but think!
What constitutes an expert?
I've been doing my thing for nearly 30 years and I don't consider myself an expert! Some of these so called "experts" are legends in their own minds....
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Personally I don't care for "undersize" 1911's either, but it is based on feel .
If Kimber builds such a crappy product I have to ask, why do they sell so many guns ?
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Another issue with the short barreled 1911s is the bull barrel. I can strip and clean a full size very quickly and easily, but a bull barrel is no small task, and one that requires a tiny Allen wrench. Here is a video of what is involved: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO-7ZEEQF-g&feature=related
Do it more, and you'll get used to it! I have the same system on my STI Eagle 5.5 2011. I make the tool out of paperclips, and I use the same one on s-il's Kimber Ultra Pro (in the video the leg that goes in the hole is too long, and that is why he has troubles). I actually tear my 1911's down the same way because it is easier once you get used to it.
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I saw this on another forum and managed to resist posting on it there - but I can't let it slide twice.
This is about choosing the wrong weapon for the task at hand. What Rob is teaching is essentially a combat handgun course where hundreds (to thousands) of rounds go through the gun in a very short time. Sub-compact 1911s (or any other sub-compact) are notoriously hard on recoil springs and many manufacturers recommend changing them at some ridiculous (300 rounds?) interval. It is like taking your 12" chain saw to a lumberjack competition. Wrong tool for the event.
A well maintained sub-compact is a perfectly viable self defense weapon. That doesn't mean that it is the tool for post-apocalyptic street clearing activities.
A handgun is a tool. If you are going to use it, it is your responsibility to know how it works, maintain it, and know how to use it.
I think Rob would better served to advise his students before they show up that the sub-compact is not the right tool for his course.
+1
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I have and carry a lightly modified Colt Officers ACP. I shoot IDPA with it sometimes. It is very controllable and easy to shoot even with SD ammo. If I were taking a SD class I would use it for a while and switch to a full size later. Probably switch to other guns during the class also just to get additional time with them under pressure. If I had a Glock I would use it to but not exclusively! Nothing wrong with compact and sub-compact anything in the right situation!
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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so he is not a fan of Sub-Compact's ;) gotcha :)
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so he is not a fan of Sub-Compact's ;) gotcha :)
As I said earlier, he is not a fan of 1911's period! He has posted several times that he is tired of people bringing 1911's to the class.
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Well, you would have to admit that with the number of rounds reportedly being fired at his training, the 1911 users would get plenty of practice reloading over the course of the event.
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+1
+100
I have shot the Kimber 1911's. I like them but would not own a compact version. That is where my Glock 30SF comes in.
M58 is also on the money with using your brains. What may be good for you may not be good for another.
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Larry Vickers says the best platform for the 1911 is the full size Gov. with the 5" bbl. Thats what I have and will always use. I'm no expert and I still have FTEs ever so often but it is usually fro dirt or limp wristing. I also run a 19lbs spring so I only shoot full load rounds, 185 grain or 230. 185 just because thats what Hornady critical defense comes in. I dont trust the smaller 1911s. JMB was right with the 5".
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I saw this on another forum and managed to resist posting on it there - but I can't let it slide twice.
This is about choosing the wrong weapon for the task at hand. What Rob is teaching is essentially a combat handgun course where hundreds (to thousands) of rounds go through the gun in a very short time. Sub-compact 1911s (or any other sub-compact) are notoriously hard on recoil springs and many manufacturers recommend changing them at some ridiculous (300 rounds?) interval. It is like taking your 12" chain saw to a lumberjack competition. Wrong tool for the event.
A well maintained sub-compact is a perfectly viable self defense weapon. That doesn't mean that it is the tool for post-apocalyptic street clearing activities.
A handgun is a tool. If you are going to use it, it is your responsibility to know how it works, maintain it, and know how to use it.
I think Rob would better served to advise his students before they show up that the sub-compact is not the right tool for his course.
Well said.
My full-sized Kimber has 75k through it, goes several thousand rounds between cleanings. That goes to a class. I think I recall that the smaller 1911s require being lubricated more frequently.
I've seen plenty of Glocks, Springfields, S&Ws puke through the years... oldly, not a CZ that I can recall. Well, whatever.
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I have to agree that the right tool needs to be used for the task at hand. That being said, I have 15k rounds through one of my sub compact kimbers and I have yet to experience a failure. On the other hand I had nothing but failures with a more expensive sub compact kimber I used to own. It is reasonable to expect a $700-$1200 gun to perform when pushed a little bit. I grew up in a 1911 household and to my father there is no other gun. If I were going to be involved in a SHTF situation I would feel comfortable with a 1911, but I have to say it wouldn't be my first choice. I would probably go with a Glock. It's like the ak 47 of pistols It just works. Like that loose sloppy chick at the bar. It goes bang every time. She's a sure thing.
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FWIW..
I carry a bull barrel LW 4" Kimber for EDC. It's a Tactical Pro II. It ran me $1,200 a little less than 4 years ago. The only time I have a problem with it, I know it's time to replace the spring.. I've got about 5k rounds through it. It feels perfect in my hand. I do love it.. It's quite accurate..
That said, it hasn't been as reliable as a new Remington R-1 that has metal shavings falling out if it, round for round, shooting both that afternoon. I took the Remington to get cleaned up and smoothed out and night sights, and it will be replacing the Kimber for EDC as soon as available and proven.. I expect to take the laser grip off of it and probably trade it for a chrome Bersa 1911, another Remington R-1, Glock 17 or 21 with an after market trigger, an AK or a couple of pump guns.
As pretty as they are, I don't think I need another Kimber, just because it's a Kimber.. I can get a better value for the money with something more reasonably priced..
Again, FWIW..
If anybody's interested in that kind of trade, let me know. I'll get pics at some point and post over in classifieds.. I've got the box, original mags and all. It has night sights that are still fine. Probably got another two years left on them..
Rob gets on my nerves.. I think it's just his manner that yanks my chain. He comes across as a bit of a snob or something..
I don't have enough good feedback to bother with a 3" 1911, his opinion not withstanding. To me, one of the 1911s strong suits is the weight of a steel frame keeping the flip down.. You don't get that with the sub-compact. I'm done with a LW 1911, either way, but anybody who harps on anything the way he does on any 1911 has more to his opinion than performance alone. He's just mad at it, for some unspoken reason..
My opinion.. Worth what you paid for it..
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FWIW..
I carry a bull barrel LW 4" Kimber for EDC. It's a Tactical Pro II. It ran me $1,200 a little less than 4 years ago. The only time I have a problem with it, I know it's time to replace the spring.. I've got about 5k rounds through it. It feels perfect in my hand. I do love it.. It's quite accurate..
That said, it hasn't been as reliable as a new Remington R-1 that has metal shavings falling out if it, round for round, shooting both that afternoon. I took the Remington to get cleaned up and smoothed out and night sights, and it will be replacing the Kimber for EDC as soon as available and proven.. I expect to take the laser grip off of it and probably trade it for a chrome Bersa 1911, another Remington R-1, Glock 17 or 21 with an after market trigger, an AK or a couple of pump guns.
As pretty as they are, I don't think I need another Kimber, just because it's a Kimber.. I can get a better value for the money with something more reasonably priced..
Again, FWIW..
If anybody's interested in that kind of trade, let me know. I'll get pics at some point and post over in classifieds.. I've got the box, original mags and all. It has night sights that are still fine. Probably got another two years left on them..
Rob gets on my nerves.. I think it's just his manner that yanks my chain. He comes across as a bit of a snob or something..
I don't have enough good feedback to bother with a 3" 1911, his opinion not withstanding. To me, one of the 1911s strong suits is the weight of a steel frame keeping the flip down.. You don't get that with the sub-compact. I'm done with a LW 1911, either way, but anybody who harps on anything the way he does on any 1911 has more to his opinion than performance alone. He's just mad at it, for some unspoken reason..
My opinion.. Worth what you paid for it..
This is what keeps me from taking his classes. My best carry gun is a 1911, and it has only given me guff in matches where I over oil in a dusty desert setting. Self defense is not a 600 round marathon in the Arizona desert! I refuse to go out and buy a Glock just so I can pay him for a class!
Sorry Rob, but Glock did not die on a cross to save me, and I will not treat it that way.
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I was confused about 1911's and why someone would carry a low capacity low velocity weapon with reliability issue's until someone cleared it up for me carrying a 1911 is not about carrying a life saving personal defense device but more about making a personal statement. Much like a woman's Gucci bag or Prada purse 1911's are there to make a statement. They say hey look at me I'm old school and totally money baby. They can't comprehend modern striker fire pistols because they are so banal and plain. They're simply a tool that works and as such are not of interest to the typical 1911 carrying individual even when the striker fired pistols constantly outperform in reliability. When asked about this most talk up the trigger I've yet to find a trigger worth 2,000 plus dollars and on that note what kind of shooter are you (as one person told) if 1911's are the only gun you can shoot well. Look if you want to carry an art piece own it say carrying a BBQ gun is more important than function. I personally find great amusement in walking up to these guys and asking hey is that the new Jimmy Choo 1911 no they say it's whoever's the hot new sexy fashion sorry I mean gun designer is right now and they'll pull it out unload it and let me pet it before they run their fingers through their hair plugs jump back in their Year One Camaro and blaze off into the sunset with their busty second wife on their way to whatever fills that midlife crisis.
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You are going to need better bait than that to get someone to respond to such banal trolling, boy.
Thanks for playing and please accept this home version of the game as a consolation prize.
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I was confused about 1911's and why someone would carry a low capacity low velocity weapon with reliability issue's until someone cleared it up for me carrying a 1911 is not about carrying a life saving personal defense device but more about making a personal statement. Much like a woman's Gucci bag or Prada purse 1911's are there to make a statement. They say hey look at me I'm old school and totally money baby. They can't comprehend modern striker fire pistols because they are so banal and plain. They're simply a tool that works and as such are not of interest to the typical 1911 carrying individual even when the striker fired pistols constantly outperform in reliability. When asked about this most talk up the trigger I've yet to find a trigger worth 2,000 plus dollars and on that note what kind of shooter are you (as one person told) if 1911's are the only gun you can shoot well. Look if you want to carry an art piece own it say carrying a BBQ gun is more important than function. I personally find great amusement in walking up to these guys and asking hey is that the new Jimmy Choo 1911 no they say it's whoever's the hot new sexy fashion sorry I mean gun designer is right now and they'll pull it out unload it and let me pet it before they run their fingers through their hair plugs jump back in their Year One Camaro and blaze off into the sunset with their busty second wife on their way to whatever fills that midlife crisis.
Rob?
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Every once in a while someone joins with no other goal than to pick a fight.
I carry a 1911, because it out performs my poly guns - yes - I own three poly guns.
Facts:
The 1911 is slimmer to carry than a poly gun;
A self defense action takes less than five shots, so eight or nine should be no problem;
Single stack magazines are slimmer and easier to carry than thicker double stack poly gun feeders;
A low velocity dinosaur delivers a power factor of 199,750;
A 9mm delivers a power factor of 132,250
Three shots of my inferior loads equal four of yours;
Nobody has ever named a shooting injury after John Moses Browning's gun
Glock Hand anybody
Let me add that my guns are not pieces of art or beauties. They are hard working tools. I have an idiot scratch on my 1911 that would have me as a poster child for a marketer we discussed on another thread. I have rust, dark spots and grime on my guns. At a seminar yesterday I pulled out my two main carry guns and heard gasps. The bluing is worn, there are dark spots in the finish, the screw heads show rust, and one of the white dots on my rear sight is missing. But guess what - I can draw this gun from concealment in under 1.5 seconds, it goes bang every time, it delivers shots to center mass from any hold position, and it will deliver over 135,000 power factor into an eight inch circle at 65 yards nine out of nine shots. Tell me what is wrong with this choice!
Choosing a personal defense tool is a personal matter. It must fit you, work for you, it must go bang every time you want it to, and you have to carry it.
You carry your choice, and I'll carry mine. I'm sure you don't want a .457" diameter hole in your body any more than I want a .356" hole in me.
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You are going to need better bait than that to get someone to respond to such banal trolling, boy.
Thanks for playing and please accept this home version of the game as a consolation prize.
Ichiban,
I will poke a new poster until they are confirmed trolls. It is kinda like shooting skunks - I shoot them all day long ... until I miss the head shot on one and it sprays before it dies ;D
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Rob?
:D
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HAHAHA!
TWillis...lives under the bridge.
Funny stuff.
No comment.
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Sometimes you just carry 1911 pattern pistols because you've shot the things so many times it's hard-wired into you system. I just bought a Colt 9mm Defender, which went through the Colt Custom Shop for basic work.
I'll let you know how it runs when it arrives!
Michael B
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Sometimes you just carry 1911 pattern pistols because you've shot the things so many times it's hard-wired into you system. I just bought a Colt 9mm Defender, which went through the Colt Custom Shop for basic work.
I'll let you know how it runs when it arrives!
Michael B
It'll probably run like crap...... ;) ........ so, I'll just be glad to take it off your hands to.....you know........to try and get it to "straighten up" and act right........... LOL
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I grew up shooting revolvers single action, the trigger on the 1911 feels more natural so it is easier for me to maintain proper trigger control.
If I WERE going to buy a DA/striker fired pistol it would most likely be a G 20.
Any one who criticizes other peoples choices of fire arms with out some idea of their particular situation or intentions is either an idiot or a troll.
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Any one who criticizes other peoples choices of fire arms with out some idea of their particular situation or intentions is either an idiot or a troll.
Where is your sense of magnanimity, Tom? Surely TWillis can be both simultaneously. :o
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Where is your sense of magnanimity, Tom? Surely TWillis can be both simultaneously. :o
If he were both the Billy goats would have got him. ;D
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Sometimes you just carry 1911 pattern pistols because you've shot the things so many times it's hard-wired into you system. I just bought a Colt 9mm Defender, which went through the Colt Custom Shop for basic work.
I'll let you know how it runs when it arrives!
Michael B
So is it a Gucci or Prada ;)
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Hey I didn't join to start a fight. 8) But maybe I did come out of the gate with the flame thrower on high. It just my personal experiences with the 1911 that has really soured me on them. A member of gun owner from Gen 1.0 the first handgun I ever bought was an original Colt Delta Elite with the comp bushing I just couldn't pass it up even though I was just starting out in my first crummy duplex apartment at my first real stable job hell I think I even sold plasma to help pay it off, lean times. I soon found it to be slightly unreliable at times frustratingly unreliable at others later. I still have it 12 years later and now know what was wrong with it the dual recoil springs were going bad and the old colt mags were worn out this was back when getting colt mags was darn near impossible for someone not on the net. However even now that its "fixed" every 400 to 500 rounds I'll have a type 2 or 3 malfunction and I just chalk it up to being a colt that hasn't went to a gunsmith yet. what really killed me on 1911's though was an incident that happened @ that duplex a low IQ disabled man who had seizures lived next door. To get free drugs he let two brother crash and sling drugs out of his apartment. I didn't really care cause I was never there I worked for an oilfield company that paid 10 buck an hour but gave you the opportunity to work 200 hrs in a week. So one morning I wake up start making breakfast and hear my neighbors door get kicked in apparently some biker guys old lady had ran off with one of the drug dealing brothers and he was pissed. The walls were paper thin and I heard every single word of how he (and others) were going to kill every body, where was she, were was he, you all gonna die Is she next door At this point I was behind concealment with my delta elite because it was closest to me when it hit the fan. All of the sudden all those malfunctions started flashing before my eyes. I run for the closet for my Winchester 1300 (14th birthday present) and was just loading in some turkey loads when I heard the first shot, one more shot and then the slinging of gravel as they burned rubber out of there like Charlie Daniels Uneasy Rider. I later learned there was four of them and they had shoot in the air as they got in their car. It was a pivotal life changing moment for me and I thought about that situation obsessively over the next few years like a mental stress ball exploring my options and what I could have done, was prepared to do and could have done differently. Lesson number one I learned is best summed up by Michael Bane's grandfather "Don't own no gun that don't go bang" every time bar none end of story. Come to think of it wasn't his gun a colt too? That's why I don't bow down at the altar of the 1911. I don't have a history in sport shooting I didn't grow up with them I came to them with a blank slate as a youth part of gen 1.0 but as an adult more gen 2.0 looking at everything with a jaundiced eye towards reliability taking only that which truly works. That's why I now have a G20 & G29 which I came to reluctantly after trying just about every other 10 out there. I should have started there I'd have saved a ton of money on guns I shot to pieces. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about I decided to keep a log and not clean my gun until I had a failure. 8 months and over 2700 rounds later I had a failure to extract when the extracter slipped off the rim. One run of a bore snake and it was 500 rounds later when I broke down and busted out the old Hoppes #9.That's every time for me. P.S. When I first saw the Colt Defender the first thing that sprang to mind was wouldn't it be cool if it had an XS Big Dot buried in that trough !!!
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For many years I carried a 3 1/2 " Springfield 1911 and put several thousand rounds thru it with no problems. I carried it daily for several years off duty (full size on duty). I have not used a compact Kimber so I can not give any comment to that. I am very comfy withmy 5" Kimber. Several classes of 1K rounds or more without cleaning and no issues. Maybe the newer units are just not up to the task.