The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on May 31, 2012, 01:49:19 PM
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I'm sitting at the desk working today, and as usual the TV is on across the room. I see that there is a gun show on, so I unmute it. Triggers of Change - Cool! Now I just learned something that I'm sure many of you will also enjoy to have cleared up in your mind:
That thing on the end of the barrel is not a silencer! That is a suppressor. Perfect - color me happy! Here is how it works: (animated cutaway view of the suppressor with a bullet passing through and gasses being diverted and slowed down) The fired bullet passes through the middle of the chamber freely; some of the expanding gasses are trapped and slowed down within the suppressor; this trapping of the expanding gasses slows the bullet down to below the speed of sound and makes the weapon quieter.
This trapping of gasses slows the bullet down to below the speed of sound ???
WTF >:(
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Maybe they need to buy "Physics for Dummies" from the local Barnes and Noble....
::)
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Ummmm, most suppressors actually INCREASE bullet speed, which is why there is a slight impact shift up from the point of aim compared to the same weapon unsuppressed.
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Nu-uh! Those explosive gases have little grippy fingers that claw at the projectile and try to slow it down....really! :P :P
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Ummmm, most suppressors actually INCREASE bullet speed, which is why there is a slight impact shift up from the point of aim compared to the same weapon unsuppressed.
Cool how those trapped gasses slow the bullet down. Let me ask this though, if you increase the speed of the bullet it impacts higher on the target? Why is that? I'm not the best external ballistician so help me out here. Don't want to hijack the thread just something that I don't know.
Pecos
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Cool how those trapped gasses slow the bullet down. Let me ask this though, if you increase the speed of the bullet it impacts higher on the target? Why is that? I'm not the best external ballistician so help me out here. Don't want to hijack the thread just something that I don't know.
Pecos
I am not able to show you the exact formula that explains it, but in stupid Norwegian it is as simple as understanding that gravity acts on an object in the realm of time (an item moving forward will drop X over a period of time). If an object gets from point A to point B faster it will not have dropped as much:
Bullets drop one inch per second;
It takes three seconds for a bullet fired from an unsuppressed gun to reach the target;
The bullet will drop three inches;
However, it takes two seconds for a bullet fired from a suppressed gun to reach the target;
So, the bullet from a suppressed gun only drops two inches and impacts the target one inch higher than the bullet fired from the unsuppressed gun.
That is as technical as I can make it.
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Cool how those trapped gasses slow the bullet down. Let me ask this though, if you increase the speed of the bullet it impacts higher on the target? Why is that? I'm not the best external ballistician so help me out here. Don't want to hijack the thread just something that I don't know.
Pecos
the bullet travels above the line of the sights from close to the muzzle (for instance, an M14 round would cross to above the sight line at 35yds and then would cross again to below at 200yds) out to the zero range where it crosses below the sight line.
A bullet always falls towards the ground at the same rate, but how far it is from the muzzle when it crosses the sight line depends upon its muzzle velocity.
So, if you increase the velocity with the same zero, it will cross the sight line farther out than the zero, thus hitting high
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There are also other factors such as barrel length as it relates to the time the bullet stays in the barrel and muzzle rise from recoil.
This is not seen as often with higher speed rounds in rifles (as much as in handguns) but it can be a factor.
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Regardless of how it all works,
The producers that work for the whole group of stations (Discovery, History, Science, Military, etc.) have once again proven they are idiots >:(
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I did enjoy the Hatfields and McCoy thing on History! Lots of period firearms used!
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I did enjoy the Hatfields and McCoy thing on History! Lots of period firearms used!
Someone has already jumped on the saddle inaccuracies however. I guess I wasn't looking at it for facts and a history lesson. But, I did notice and appreciate the heavy use of the '66 and cap and ball revolvers. Nothing like the solid sound of a '66 being levered to sooth my souls ;)
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Not much of an observer in that respect. Just enjoyed it for the little history I know of the legends.
Tom Berringer makes quite the scumbag out of his character! Almost didn't recognize him at first!
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Regardless of how it all works,
The producers that work for the whole group of stations (Discovery, History, Science, Military, etc.) have once again proven they are idiots >:(
Yes, I agree.
I tend to nit-pick....and I find myself getting irate at times when channels such as these, who should pride themselves on accuracy, get things so wrong.
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Yes, I agree.
I tend to nit-pick....and I find myself getting irate at times when channels such as these, who should pride themselves on accuracy, get things so wrong.
I agree, I just finished the History Channel series on the American Revolution. Two glaring omissions came to mind as I watched. Number one was the technological advantage that we had over the British with our rifled barrels compared to their smooth bore muskets. The second was the complete ommission of the Swamp Rat Francis Marion. These two details I believe were deciding factors in the war.
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Not much of an observer in that respect. Just enjoyed it for the little history I know of the legends.
Tom Berringer makes quite the scumbag out of his character! Almost didn't recognize him at first!
Just like the Lonesome Dove series, the producers of Hatfields and MacCoys did a great job of casting, and the actors pulled it off.
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Just like the Lonesome Dove series, the producers of Hatfields and MacCoys did a great job of casting, and the actors pulled it off.
I think Costner was a producer if I recall from the credits.
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I was used as a reference for a buddy to get his tax stamp for a suppressor. When the lady called to ask me the questions she asked if I knew what it was for. I said probably a suppressor. She got all snotty with me and said "no, it's for a silencer." I started to correct her but she was still being snotty so I ended up letting it drop.
Not even the people that should have a clue, have a clue.
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All this hot air about bullets falling faster or slower hasn't got squat to do with suppressed or unsuppressed.
I'm amazed that all you "gun guys" posted 2 pages in this thread. (well, OK most of one was actually on topic ;D )
and not one of you mentioned PRESSURE.
In integrally suppressed barrels gas is bled off through holes in the barrel into the surrounding suppressor body and, by decreasing pressure will in fact keep the bullets velocity below the speed of sound.
You need special ammo to do it with a simple can on the end of a regular barrel.
Slower bullets hit lower, not higher, than the same bullet going at a faster rate.
Bullets don't all drop at the same rate. Bullet drop is a result of bullet velocity and the area of the bullet exposed to gravity.
At an upward or downward angle gravity has less effect on the bullet, there fore it drops less and unless compensated for you will always hit high when shooting up or down hill.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=18414.0
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Apples and oranges Tom!
We are talking about suppressors attached at the muzzle. This does not change the barrel dynamics in any way.
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Apples and oranges Tom!
We are talking about suppressors attached at the muzzle. This does not change the barrel dynamics in any way.
That doesn't change the accuracy of what I posted.
AND, it got YOUR thread back on topic .
For now ;D
By the way, proper nomenclature may be important, but "silencer" is a heck of a lot easier to spell.
Considering Maxim's specialty they should properly be called "mufflers" any way.
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Call them what you will. Maxim himself called them silencers. Who am I to argue with him?
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Call them what you will. Maxim himself called them silencers. Who am I to argue with him?
He did indeed.
Hiram Percy, not Hiram Stevens, Maxim. ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Percy_Maxim
References
^ "Noise's Bogeyman". Time (magazine). January 4, 1932. Retrieved 2007-08-21. "While mental hygienists, efficiency experts and city officials have been bewailing the maddening effects of city noise, Hiram Percy Maxim has been manufacturing noise mufflers at Hartford, Conn. Last week he announced that his Maxim Silencer Co., of which he is president and his only son Hiram Hamilton is chief engineer and whose factory is in Asylum Street, Hartford, will—besides continuing to make silencers for guns, motor exhausts, safety valves, air releases, in fact every kind of pipe which emits a gas—offer a consulting service in noise abatement."
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I was used as a reference for a buddy to get his tax stamp for a suppressor. When the lady called to ask me the questions she asked if I knew what it was for. I said probably a suppressor. She got all snotty with me and said "no, it's for a silencer." I started to correct her but she was still being snotty so I ended up letting it drop.
Not even the people that should have a clue, have a clue.
While she may have been overly officious and snooty, she was correct from a legal standpoint. All the IRS regs refer to these devices as "silencers". The word "suppressor" may sound nicer and be a more technically accurate term, but legally they are "silencers".
I only found one instance in the IRS code of the use of the word "suppressor" and it was in regards to a flash suppressor.
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All this hot air about bullets falling faster or slower hasn't got squat to do with suppressed or unsuppressed.
I'm amazed that all you "gun guys" posted 2 pages in this thread. (well, OK most of one was actually on topic ;D )
and not one of you mentioned PRESSURE.
In integrally suppressed barrels gas is bled off through holes in the barrel into the surrounding suppressor body and, by decreasing pressure will in fact keep the bullets velocity below the speed of sound.
You need special ammo to do it with a simple can on the end of a regular barrel.
Slower bullets hit lower, not higher, than the same bullet going at a faster rate.
Bullets don't all drop at the same rate. Bullet drop is a result of bullet velocity and the area of the bullet exposed to gravity.
At an upward or downward angle gravity has less effect on the bullet, there fore it drops less and unless compensated for you will always hit high when shooting up or down hill.
Just can't agree with that at all. Bullets do fall at the same rate and velocity makes no difference. Well, in a vacuum it doesn't. If the bullet can develop some kind of aerodynamic lift, it might take longer, but it might develop a negative lift also...so it is a wash.
If you fire a bullet from a barrel horizontal to the ground and drop a bullet from the same hight above the ground at the instand the fired bullet leaves the barrel, both bullets will hit the ground at the same time....assuming level ground. But they will fall at exactly the same rate and hit at exactly the same time. The exception would be if the distance to the ground was far enough that the dropped bullet reached it's terminal velocity in the air before it hit the ground, not likely in any reasonable shooting situation.
I have no idea what you mean about it's rate of fall being dependent upon the area of the bullet exposed to gravity?
The mass (weight for our exercise) doesn't even effect the rate of fall....
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I concur with Solus' statement. Gravity is a constant, it's effect on a mass are constant.
Terminal velocity involves gravity but there are other forces involved that affect the rate of speed of a particular object, mass, surface area, etc.... A free-falling object achieves its terminal velocity when the downward force of gravity equals the upward force of drag which causes the net force on the object to be zero, resulting in an acceleration of zero.
A bullet is not a free falling object until it's forward momentum is zero.
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Slower bullets hit lower, not higher, than the same bullet going at a faster rate.
All things being equal, I get what you are saying....but in the real world, for that to happen, the barrel must be clamped down solidly so that recoil has no effect.
I once had a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 10 1/2" barrel....... at 25 yds, with 248gr RNL .44 bullets going around 900 fps, the bullets went about 16" higher than the same bullets loaded to 1400 fps (magnum velocity).
This was strictly due to dwell-time in the barrel being effected directly by recoil.
Whole lotta variables in this little arena we love so much. ;D ;D