The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: santahog on June 05, 2012, 08:07:32 PM
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Sorry.. I've never owned one and they had just graduated to the A-2s before I got out.. Never got to take that the A-2 to the range or anything before I outprocessed..
Question, please.. I've got a lady asking "Best AR?" and while I don't have a prejudice towards or against, I simply don't know..
"Best Base AR",
and
"Best base AR for the money", if there's a difference.
Piston and standard models as well.
Please make distinctions if there's one to be made..
Which to stay away from, regardless of price, too, please and why.
Please expand as you wish..
I prefer a piston operated system, which is why I like AKs..
Thank you..
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I don't think there is a "best" if you stick with reputable names, they all seem to be good.
"Fly by night industries" wouldn't be on my list but if you've heard the name on this forum, or other reputable source, it will be fairly reliable.
Price would be my determining factor, and that might not go the way you would expect.
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I've been doing a bit of reading and asking myself being a novice on the black rifle!
I keep hearing the same basic advice! Build the lower and buy the upper for your first rifle.
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I've been doing a bit of reading and asking myself being a novice on the black rifle!
I keep hearing the same basic advice! Build the lower and buy the upper for your first rifle.
I built my lower in 1/2 an hour sitting at my computer table.
The only tools I remember using were a couple of punches for lining things up and a putty knife to hold down a detent.
For the upper you need a barrel vise and wrench to start with.
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most companies are using 7075 forgings made by just a few suppliers with milspec hard anodizing...a flat top A4 style offers better mounting options for optics...twist rates from 1/7 to 1/9 depending intended bullet choice...common length down here is a 16" gun for most people, and use the intermediate gas tap location... stock fit is subjective, so many go with collapsible, and would suggest if you do, go with a cheek piece like RRA Operator/Veltor/ or other SOPMOD style...more consistency in long range shots with a full float hand guard...make sure the bolt carrier key is properly staked, and that the carrier shrouds the firing pin like a M16 carrier...game players like myself will invariably change out the trigger for a better one, and probably have more invested in their optics than in the rifle....ambi safety and better finger placement grip
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Don't forget, you can do the same thing in .308.
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Thanks guys.. Please keep em coming.. :)
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I have 2 AR rifles, a Del-Ton, which I bought in a panic at the top of the market a couple of years ago, and one I made up myself that wears a DPMS upper. The Del-Ton has proved utterly reliable and the only thing I'd change (for target or long range shooting) is the trigger.
http://www.del-ton.com/
MP
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An AR is next on my list and I'm down to (in no particular order):
Colt 6940
Stag 3G
Daniel Defense V7
Spikes Tactical ST 15 w/either 9" S.A.R. or 12" BAR
Larue Predator 5.56
None are cheap but I don't want to have to change out a bunch of parts after I get it. My wife gets funny sometimes, no problem paying for the good stuff but pay half that and try to spend the remainder on upgrades is an issue ???
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Colt will most likely be the most expensive.
You seem to wind up paying double for the prancing pony on the side .
I would avoid them for that reason.
Armalite is another one that seems to tack on extra for their logo.
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I have been utterly happy with the Rock River I picked up a few years ago of Gunbroker. A friend has a Sig 516 that he won't part with. I've looked at the S&W version for a second one ("It's for the children!" works both ways).
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I have been utterly happy with the Rock River I picked up a few years ago of Gunbroker. A friend has a Sig 516 that he won't part with. I've looked at the S&W version for a second one ("It's for the children!" works both ways).
And it's still BS , unless you mean it's for the "oldest child" in the house. ;D
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One can "still" literally build a complete AR with some goodies like free float handguards, decent adj. stock, and a reliable upper for $600-$800 easily...With some upgraded options.
A lower from DPMS, Stag, Del-Ton, a DPMS or Bushmaster lower pts kit. your less than $200 so far. For a complete lower.
(Remember, you can always upgrade later) "Hopefully"... :-\
Decent complete uppers from Rock River, Palmetto State Armory (.com) (many others)....$300 and up depending on bells and whistles....
Bravo Company (.com), Brownells and countless others have "deals", even on AR-15 (.com)....Parts/Dealer section, has blowouts.
Competition is pretty fierce to move products right now.
I'd go with a flat-top, flat fwd gas block, free float handguard, BUIS from A.R.M.S series 71. and a Falcon ERGO grip ($18)..and a adj. stock of your choosing.
I chose the VLTOR SOPMOD, but there are many. Shop around, assembling one is way easier than I first thought.
It's like Barbie for guys,...plenty of options and prices to get a reliable "basic" AR that you can upgrade.
For the price of a DPMS Sportical or Olympic model, you can build a semi-custom for the same price or even less.
Just my .02
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If you don't find the features you want pre-built. I definitely go with the buy the upper and build your own lower.
I got my upper from Galati International. I tend toward heavy, varmint style, so I got the 20" real heavy barrel with Hogue aluminum float tube. http://www.galatiinternational.com/category/AR15uppers.html (http://www.galatiinternational.com/category/AR15uppers.html)
Bought my lower receiver from a local company, C-3, then put in a parts kit and stock from Mid-USA. Generally lower parts kits are inexpensive and they'll give you a serviceable rifle. You can spend more money later to upgrade to a better trigger (like Timney) and a fancier stock (like Magpul).
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One thing you should always remember... The only part that requires an FFL dealer is the lower. When you build an AR, it is good to have a lower that is of a quality brand name as it will be what the gun is judged by should you want to sell it later. If you put a Larue upper on a Bushmaster lower it will be considered a bushmaster to someone who don't know any better. All I'm saying here is try to be smart when you match parts.
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I was just looking at Stag Arms. I heard they make a lot of recievers for other brands but I'm not sure. The model 8 piston rifle looks like it would fill most anyone's needs, unless you want a target rifle. All it needs is an Ergo grip and maybe a trigger job. http://www.stagarms.com/index.php?cPath=13_22
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NRA just reviewed the Mossberg MMR and I like the sleek look of the Hunter Model. While it has a basic fixed stock their Ttactical models have adjustable stocks or you could start with the Hunter and swap out for the stock of your choice.
http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=44§ion=products (http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=44§ion=products)
(http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/New/29100.jpg)
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santahog..if you are going to shoot any of the gun games with your rifle....
shoot a piston gun and compare it to a comparable outfitted direct gas gun...I perceive a lot more recoil to the piston guns...
you will want to add some form of muzzle brake or compensator, so a threaded barrel might be a desirable option
you will eventually want an upgraded trigger...cheaper to buy the one you want the first time
on the other hand, most any of the well known manufacturers produce a very basic rifle and comparable price point... good luck with your choice.... like most, I have definite reasons that led to my choice of a game rifle(s)
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Thank you guys.. I appreciate the feedback alot. I'm gonna pass the info to a lady who asked me for an opinion, and I didn't have enough confidence in one to offer anything that she was looking for.. No names/screen names will be passed along.. Thanks again, truly. This is good information for anyone to have..
Have a safe weekend and God bless!!
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santahog..if you are going to shoot any of the gun games with your rifle....
shoot a piston gun and compare it to a comparable outfitted direct gas gun...I perceive a lot more recoil to the piston guns...
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Les, are you saying Piston rifles give you less perceived recoil or more?
Thank you!!
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santahog... recoil to me is subjective, and I probably use the term to mean overall movement, and not just rearward force from the bullet leaving the muzzle.. the piston guns seem to move around a lot more than the direct gas guns... I've spent some time and effort working on getting my direct gas gun to stay on target at longer distances
for hand guns, I can live with recoil, but use very heavy springs to get the muzzle back down and reduce perceived muzzle flip
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Les, thanks for the clarification. it almost seems counterintuitive but I shoot an AK and there is alot more recoil than my old M-16 had. I know it throws a bigger round, but before I ever picked one up I had imagined them being about equal. The AR was easier to get back on target, with hardly any recoil in comparison..
Probably a combination of heavier round and operation. No shock buffer in the stock of an AK either..
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If you already have a .223, and are a handloader, then try a .308.
If you are not a handloader, then the .223 is cheaper to shoot.
Factory Federal Match ammo, with the Sierra 168 grain bullet is very accurate, and If you watch Midway, you can pick up that ammo at $1.10 a round, and Federal brass is very good brass. I am up to 12 reloads on their brass, with no problems.
I have 22.250's for my .22 varmint rifles, so I did not need another .22, besides, I handload.
The .308 cost more to shoot, but the .308 caliber is very impressive with its accuracy.
I shoot a DPMS LR-308, heavy barrel, 24 inch.
This is the flat upper, so mounting a scope is easy.
I bought this particular rifle based on all of the reports I had read, and I have not been unhappy with it.
It will shoot 10 round groups with the Sierra 168 grain HPBT that are a maximum of 5/8 to 3/4" at 100 yards if I do my job.
I do not recommend the factory trigger. It is at 6# plus.
I put a Geissele High Speed National match trigger in it, and adjusted the trigger to 1#10 ounces on the first stage, and 6-7 ounces on the second stage, which works out to 2#2-3 ounces total pull weight, measured with a digital scale, 10 trigger pulls.
It shoots the Sierra bullet with 40 grains of IMR 4895 at a chronoed 2500 fps. It will shoot those groups all day, if I do my job.
The scope is the Millet LRS .1 mil click at 25 power.
This rifle is not a carry rifle, as it weights 13 pounds without ammo. I generally shoot with 10 round magazines, its just easier shooting from a bench.
Have fun, trying to figure out which rifle to buy is a big decision, and I went with the DPMS because of the reports I read, and the cost of the rifle was within my price range.
The only problem that I have is watching other shooters (or they have when watching me) at the range trying to hit targets at 100 yards. I then invite them to shoot mine, (fly targets) and they find out what a .308 that is tuned can do, because they can shoot the same groups that I do, when they get used to the trigger.
Now I am bragging.
What is really impressive to those shooting alongside of me is when I shoot fly targets. These are targets that I downloaded that have horseflys on it. I can usually kill 8+ flies out of a 10 round magazine. Really fun.
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If you want a piston gun you should get one. There would be only one driver for me to spend the extra money and perhaps end up with a proprietary system that goes by the wayside...that would be reliability in conditions where I got crap in the gun all the time. I'm not in an area of dry particualte matter day in and day out so I don't think I'll ever need that. It may be great to have one in Iraq...but I'm not there nor am I in Death Valley or similar here. I prefer to spend the extra money on other things.
I acquired a FailZero upper not too long ago because it is hardcoated. Hardcoating alloys are used in industry all over the place successfully to enhance products or provide products that could not be made another way. The hardcoating is it's own lubrication in this case and since I run a can...I really don't want lube catching the extra dirt and gasses from the can. I know that a can is a reason for a piston...but this works great for the people I know who have one and the parts are otherwise standard mil-spec. I haven't built the AR on it yet, but I'm in the acquiring mode. Bill Wilson has the best trigger (single) out there for the money I think...it has a really great reset.
I'm going with a VLTOR stock, a Centurion 18" threaded barrel and a Colt lower. From training I'm a believer in holding my gun forearm stock with my thumb on top...so if on that 18" barrel I can't stretch my arm out enough I'll be going without the standard front sight post and will end up with something to cowitness on a rail. If I had the $$$'s lying around I'd have it finished but what I do have is in the safe as spare parts for now.