The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Paraguy on June 22, 2012, 01:50:03 PM
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I found this on break.com and found it to be interesting and informative. Personally, I would have been more cooperative with Law Enforcement than this gentleman was. I admire, however, how knowledgable he was and his command of the law. I also admire the police office for treating the citizen with respect, and also following up dilligently on a call concerning an armed person. Probably some teaching moments for both armed citizens and law enforcement in this video.
Would be great to get different perspectives on this incident:
http://www.break.com/index/detained-for-open-carry-2338359
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Personally I think the guy was a jerk,it's always best to comply and make the encounter as smooth as it can be.Actions like that can manifest ill will,the next time he gets stopped this may make the difference in whether the cop cuts him a break or slams him for every infraction that will stick.
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Geez...I thought the cop was as polite as he could be. The guy filming acted like an azzhole. Yes it's legal but from all his legal knowlege it sounds like he went out open carrying to look for trouble- like he wanted to become famous or be a test case.
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Yeah, I thought the guy was acting like a total prick.
Question: If the police receive a complaint, isn't it not only their duty, but their right to investigate the complaint? If they got a call about a bunch of minors consuming alcohol, don't they have every right to check their ID to make sure they're 21? Same should apply here.
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I'm with the rest here.
I thought the Cop acted reasonable.
The guy filming was looking for a political confrontation.
If he had encountered that psycho A hole LEO in Cleveland (?) he would be dead.
People like this is why I have no use for the "Free State Project", even though I was one of the first 25 members.
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Just because you agree with a guy's premise does not mean you endorse his actions.
This open carry guy is a Class-A Certified Jerk.
The cop was the kind of LEO I would like to meet. He maintained his calm even upon provocation.
That's my 2-cents.
Crusader
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Just because you agree with a guy's premise does not mean you endorse his actions.
This open carry guy is a Class-A Certified Jerk.
The cop was the kind of LEO I would like to meet. He maintained his calm even upon provocation.
That's my 2-cents.
Crusader
+1
Something, though perfectly legal as far as I know, I would not attempt here...
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there is a difference between standing up for your rights and being a total asshat
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I believe California just lost their open carry privileges due to this type of behavior. a bunch of San Diego open carry types would have big 'rallys' and meet at the beach, a restaurant or some other public place to be seen and promote their cause. though what they were doing as a group was, in my opinion, fine, many would carry on their own and stir up issues like this. maybe even this very same guy, who knows? Governor finally said enough, we don't need the fuzz being harassed by phone calls from the soccer moms calling in panic and wasting the time of said police officers and maybe even creating a situation where the cops become confused as to what is really going on and potentially instigating an incident between an otherwise law abiding citizen and a cop doing his job. that would be a bad day for the cause..
sincerely hope the Cali folks get their laws straightened out so I can carry when I visit the family.
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Yeah, I thought the guy was acting like a total prick.
Question: If the police receive a complaint, isn't it not only their duty, but their right to investigate the complaint? If they got a call about a bunch of minors consuming alcohol, don't they have every right to check their ID to make sure they're 21? Same should apply here.
Actually, probably not on a couple of levels.
1. The SCOTUS has ruled that police are not required to enforce any law or intervene in any crime. This is why during the WTO and so-called anarchist riots and such the po-po usually stand around and secure the area, contain the mayhem, and let the wankers trash the area and kind of burn themselves out. Then the police will move in, arrest a bunch of folks, prosecutors will try to nail the leaders (if caught) and the judge lets the rest go.
2. po-po as agents of the .gov do not have rights. They have powers and they have authorities under the law. Only citizens (including police not on duty) have rights.
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The guy was obviously with in his rights evidenced by the decision of the LEO to not detain him further and let him go. The LEO seemed a pretty amicable fella one wonders how it would have gone if the the LEO was a prick.
I am in two minds about the confrontation.
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Here in Louisiana, you can be charged with disturbing the peace for open carry. But only if someone complains. Open carry is leagle here. If you act an ass, you will probably get charged, but if you treat the LEO with some respect and cooperate it goes better. Thats the case down here in my parish anyway. I have seen some bad cases up north and in the cities.
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Here in Louisiana, you can be charged with disturbing the peace for open carry. But only if someone complains. Open carry is leagle here. If you act an ass, you will probably get charged, but if you treat the LEO with some respect and cooperate it goes better. Thats the case down here in my parish anyway. I have seen some bad cases up north and in the cities.
That's pretty much how NH is but with CCW at $10 for 4 years no hassle Shall Issue nobody bothers.
It used to be common during hunting season to see some one wearing a pistol , but in the last 40 years the only person I've seen open carrying was a woman who had been stabbed the night before by her boyfriends wife.
Cops told her to OC until her permit was processed.
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I'm in agreement with you all. Just about anywhere you go you can be charged with either disturbing the peace or public drunkenness, and they don't have to test you for that either, its a judgement call. In other words if they want to arrest you , they will find a way.
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I do think the man was trying to test the law, obviously, he allowed the LE to disarm him, now I agree on principle, but when you do a test, it can succeed, fail or be inconclusive. A different officer could have had a totally different result.
CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES CAREFULLY.
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I do think the man was trying to test the law, obviously, he allowed the LE to disarm him, now I agree on principle, but when you do a test, it can succeed, fail or be inconclusive. A different officer could have had a totally different result.
CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES CAREFULLY.
Yes, if you are going to confront the Fuzz, make sure it's the easy going one who tends to agree with you.
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Very potentially dangerous on the part of the film guy, a wee bit too cocky IMHO,...however, he knew his rights to a fault perhaps better than the cops did....as soon as the Super. showed up he got his gun and was free to go.
More and more of these vids are showing up. I posted one here about the guy refusing to consent to a DUI checkpoint License check.
As m25 and others posted,.....choose this hill you may potentially die (or get tazed/arrested) on carefully.....This cop was cool. Some would have just thrown him on the ground for Disobeying a LEO command....
Spent the weekend in jail, just to have it thrown out later......
This is the gray area I encountered as a resident of NC (open carry state). They still have a misdemeanor charge of brandishing to the terrorism of the public. Sure it will get dropped after your 48 hours in the pokey.
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Some thoughts I've had about this.
The goal, sensibly, is to normalize the way the public views guns
The most egregious thing about this video is that some busy body saw fit to call the cops just because some guy was walking along wearing a pistol. That is the fault of neither, it is the result of 50 years of socialist Dem lies and misrepresentation.
The fact the gun owner had a camera is evidence he was looking for a confrontation.
His aim was misguided, the Police involved seem to handle the situation well.
They seemed equally well informed. They acted in a professional manner to establish he was not creating any problem and sent him on his way with out attitude.
Considering some of the horror stories that have been discussed here, they should be publicly applauded.
The gun owner, and the public, would be better served if he aimed his educational efforts at the public so that the police are not bothered by "man with a gun" calls unless he is actually doing something suspicious.
The G/O seems to want the 911 dispatcher to engage in psychic profiling and automatically know that this man with a gun is just exercising his rights while that man with a gun is preparing for an armed robbery.
Until a cop comes over and asks there is no way to tell the difference.
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Only "observation" I will make on Tom's post above is that it is not likely a bad guy planning armed criminal activity will be carrying openly. A nut case might however, and the cop had a tough call on this guy about that. :D
I guess it is the cops job to determine if you are a regular Joe or a psycho.
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Guys like that is exactly why CA lost open carry. It is also why I am against OC, too many jack asses out there.
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There seems to be agreement. Now if only we could find out who he is and let him know as a group of 2A believers we think he's a smacked ass, and that maybe he should just try to get on Jerry Springer if he wants to be famous.
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Guys like that is exactly why CA lost open carry. It is also why I am against OC, too many jack asses out there.
No TAB, the reason you lost OC was because the majority of Ca voters are gullible and to lazy to check facts.
The same reason you wound up with Moon beam Brown for your Gov.
Again.
The problem in Ca. was not people exercising their rights.
It was the largely liberal population having a tizzy over it.
If they were not deluded dems told for 50 years that items made of metal and plastic are evil and cause crime they would have a healthier attitude toward the God given, (but Ca removed) Rights of their fellow citizens.
There seems to be agreement. Now if only we could find out who he is and let him know as a group of 2A believers we think he's a smacked ass, and that maybe he should just try to get on Jerry Springer if he wants to be famous.
I signed up for the site and will post my comment when I get the confirmation e mail..
Done
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Cultural and regional society "norms" also come into account. In rural NC, the smaller towns acceptance of open carry is not a big deal with no 911 calls and is not an issue.
In the urban cities, Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro, where the transplants have migrated, you get the 911 calls, the "man with a gun" calls,....etc,...
I'm sure this is the same in rural TX, the Dakota's, and other states with open carry. The culture of the folks in small towns/cities get it...The larger metropolis areas like this guy in Portland will always get you a "visit" by the po-po...
Here's the question:
In states where OC is permitted, is it the public that needs an education on the law, or a citizens right to do what this guy in the vid did, albeit somewhat badly?
The nanny state folks will always be there, but if they realize and understand you reside in an OC state get the (insert expletive) over it,...
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Cultural and regional society "norms" also come into account. In rural NC, the smaller towns acceptance of open carry is not a big deal with no 911 calls and is not an issue.
In the urban cities, Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro, where the transplants have migrated, you get the 911 calls, the "man with a gun" calls,....etc,...
I'm sure this is the same in rural TX, the Dakota's, and other states with open carry. The culture of the folks in small towns/cities get it...The larger metropolis areas like this guy in Portland will always get you a "visit" by the po-po...
Here's the question:
In states where OC is permitted, is it the public that needs an education on the law, or a citizens right to do what this guy in the vid did, albeit somewhat badly?
The nanny state folks will always be there, but if they realize and understand you reside in an OC state get the (insert expletive) over it,...
The population needs to be educated both, to the fact that OC is perfectly legal, and the fact that a law abiding citizen engaging in OC is no big deal.
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I believe this was Portland "Maine". It seems the new Governor has done some work with the Portland PD here. Chitwood had that PD so wound up over civilian firearms possession that I had problems there..
I think the guy filming, like alot of the OC guys, was trying to make a point, and being a bit of a pin head about it. I'm glad it went the way it did.
Portland has come A LONG WAY in the right direction!!! I bet that head nurse at the nursing home that kicked me out from my wifes death bed thinks of me more often now..
Grrr..
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I believe this was Portland "Maine". It seems the new Governor has done some work with the Portland PD here. Chitwood had that PD so wound up over civilian firearms possession that I had problems there..
I think the guy filming, like alot of the OC guys, was trying to make a point, and being a bit of a pin head about it. I'm glad it went the way it did.
Portland has come A LONG WAY in the right direction!!! I bet that head nurse at the nursing home that kicked me out from my wifes death bed thinks of me more often now..
Grrr..
Speechless!!
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Speechless!!
At the time, almost..
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I believe this was Portland "Maine". It seems the new Governor has done some work with the Portland PD here. Chitwood had that PD so wound up over civilian firearms possession that I had problems there..
I think the guy filming, like alot of the OC guys, was trying to make a point, and being a bit of a pin head about it. I'm glad it went the way it did.
Portland has come A LONG WAY in the right direction!!! I bet that head nurse at the nursing home that kicked me out from my wifes death bed thinks of me more often now..
Grrr..
The license plates on passing cars did look like Maine.
I will second what Santahog said about Portland and its former Police Chief.
Portland under Chitwood might as well have been in Ca.
In his defense however Micheal Chitwood needed an issue to distract people from the fact that as a Philly detective he was the cop who allowed the "Unicorn Killer" Ira Eikhorn, to flee to Europe. (sarcasm)
That, and the fact that besides being a lousy cop he was also a camera whore and "guns" was a good way to get on TV.
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There are several states with a town or city named Portland.
Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Oregon, Tennessee, and Texas.
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There are several states with a town or city named Portland.
Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Oregon, Tennessee, and Texas.
That was my first thought as well when I read Santahogs post.
My first thought was that it was Oregon so I went back and looked for some kind of identification.
The best I could spot was that while they are not very clear the plates on the cars look like Maine.
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The question then becomes, which state allows open carry of any kind?
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At time 00:21
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z442/JLinTX/ShoulderPatch.jpg)
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Good eye Lawson!
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The question then becomes, which state allows open carry of any kind?
we open carry here in Tn. but not recommended ;) Just like that dipshit open carrying a AK pistol here in Tn. Legal? YES smart ? NO...........it gets a little ridiculous after a while.
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At time 00:21
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z442/JLinTX/ShoulderPatch.jpg)
Good eye . ;D
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we open carry here in Tn. but not recommended ;) Just like that dipshit open carrying a AK pistol here in Tn. Legal? YES smart ? NO...........it gets a little ridiculous after a while.
As I recall, the only two states that I mentioned that DO NOT allow open carrying of a firearm under any circumstances, are Florida and Texas! All of the rest have some form or another which again is subject to the legal interpretation of the law and not to be taken here as gospel!
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As I recall, the only two states that I mentioned that DO NOT allow open carrying of a firearm under any circumstances, are Florida and Texas! All of the rest have some form or another which again is subject to the legal interpretation of the law and not to be taken here as gospel!
I can't help but laugh at that.
2 states that are the most touted for their "liberal" gun laws are both more restrictive than the evil North East. ;D
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In the background, "Neal Street" is in the Old Port.. I'm pretty sure it's Maine. My wife's Oncologist was a few blocks from there..
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The guy filming was a jackass but would the LEO have been more agressive with a scared rabbit? Was the LEO taken back and offguard by the agressiveness of the filmer? I think the same point could have been made and still cooperate with the cops. There are lawyers who give the advice of " never talk to the police, everything you say will be used against you. Always get a lawyer first" That may be just trying to drum up clients but it makes me wonder.
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I think that he (the film maker) had an agenda and technically, he was doing nothing illegal. Would I do it as a non-resident with a Maine CC permit? Not a chance!
If you're convinced you're doing nothing illegal, do you hide behind the Miranda right? Do you take the chance that you may be arrested by an under educated constable? I can't answer any of these questions as a non-resident with a CC permit but if I'm stopped here in my home state with a valid license to carry a firearm, I'd most definitely wonder why my rights were being violated.
As the guy said, as misguided as it appears he was, he wasn't committing a crime! It's as if he were stopped for a speeding infraction when he wasn't speeding! What other agenda was on their mind?
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I think that he (the film maker) had an agenda and technically, he was doing nothing illegal. Would I do it as a non-resident with a Maine CC permit? Not a chance!
If you're convinced you're doing nothing illegal, do you hide behind the Miranda right? Do you take the chance that you may be arrested by an under educated constable? I can't answer any of these questions as a non-resident with a CC permit but if I'm stopped here in my home state with a valid license to carry a firearm, I'd most definitely wonder why my rights were being violated.
As the guy said, as misguided as it appears he was, he wasn't committing a crime! It's as if he were stopped for a speeding infraction when he wasn't speeding! What other agenda was on their mind?
That isn't correct, the cop said they had a complaint about a guy with a gun, Camera guy was in fact a "guy with a gun".
Like I posted earlier to not send a cop to check it out the 911 dispatcher would need to be a psychic.
I wonder how long the guy wandered around Portland before some liberal called it in.
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In PA you can open carry with a CCW license. I have seen it at the range and at Cabelas.
IMHO, if the guy in this video wanted to make a point, he should have complied with all of the officers requests and then took the matter to court to "fight for his rights" there. He was conducting a trial with the officer and treating him as if he was a judge which was not his role in this incident. As was pointed out, he was responding to a call regarding a man with a gun and was asking reasonable questions and doing so in a professional and cordial manner.
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In PA, you don't need LTCF to open carry, unless you're in Philadelphia.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
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First of all I do not agree with open carry. I have a CPL and open carry is legal in Michigan. I believe that it is best that people not know that I am carrying. Secondly, my opinion of the person in question is that he is very well versed in the legality of his actions. He was never disrespectful to the LEO. However, I do have some concerns over those who feel that it is the citizen who is carrying openly some how should back down and give up his right to move around freely without interference. In States where open carry is allowed by statute I believe the 911 operators and LEO should be educated as to the law. For example, when the call came in "Man with a gun" the 911 operator should ask "What is he doing?" If he's pushing a shopping cart around the Walmart and acting in a normal manner than the caller should be told that that type of activity is allowed since open carrry of firearm is legal in the state. If the open carry person is brandishing a firearm or actiing in a threatening manner than a different response is required. Law Enforcement Officers should be familiar with the open carry laws. I am not a trouble maker and I am supporter of our police. But everytime we get stopped without out a valid reason we give up a little more of our rights. Our LEOs and support people have bigger fish to fry rather than chasing down these kind of things.
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First of all I do not agree with open carry. I have a CPL and open carry is legal in Michigan. I believe that it is best that people not know that I am carrying. Secondly, my opinion of the person in question is that he is very well versed in the legality of his actions. He was never disrespectful to the LEO. However, I do have some concerns over those who feel that it is the citizen who is carrying openly some how should back down and give up his right to move around freely without interference. In States where open carry is allowed by statute I believe the 911 operators and LEO should be educated as to the law. For example, when the call came in "Man with a gun" the 911 operator should ask "What is he doing?" If he's pushing a shopping cart around the Walmart and acting in a normal manner than the caller should be told that that type of activity is allowed since open carrry of firearm is legal in the state. If the open carry person is brandishing a firearm or actiing in a threatening manner than a different response is required. Law Enforcement Officers should be familiar with the open carry laws. I am not a trouble maker and I am supporter of our police. But everytime we get stopped without out a valid reason we give up a little more of our rights. Our LEOs and support people have bigger fish to fry rather than chasing down these kind of things.
+10
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First of all I do not agree with open carry. I have a CPL and open carry is legal in Michigan. I believe that it is best that people not know that I am carrying. Secondly, my opinion of the person in question is that he is very well versed in the legality of his actions. He was never disrespectful to the LEO. However, I do have some concerns over those who feel that it is the citizen who is carrying openly some how should back down and give up his right to move around freely without interference. In States where open carry is allowed by statute I believe the 911 operators and LEO should be educated as to the law. For example, when the call came in "Man with a gun" the 911 operator should ask "What is he doing?" If he's pushing a shopping cart around the Walmart and acting in a normal manner than the caller should be told that that type of activity is allowed since open carrry of firearm is legal in the state. If the open carry person is brandishing a firearm or actiing in a threatening manner than a different response is required. Law Enforcement Officers should be familiar with the open carry laws. I am not a trouble maker and I am supporter of our police. But everytime we get stopped without out a valid reason we give up a little more of our rights. Our LEOs and support people have bigger fish to fry rather than chasing down these kind of things.
Point taken...I have to agree.
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None of us has a problem with open carry in itself, ( I'm assuming that Greywolf simply prefers not to because he has other options. I don't think he would quit carrying if the law said every one must carry openly, or if it were a common fashion )
The thing that makes this guy a jerk is his reason for doing so, which was to attract attention and create an issue where none existed.
The same holds true with carrying a gun at all.
If your reason is some form of "I'm in a better position to protect me than any Cop in the world" fine, but if you reason is "so I can kill dirt bags" then not only should you not carry , you probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun at all.
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First of all I do not agree with open carry. I have a CPL and open carry is legal in Michigan. I believe that it is best that people not know that I am carrying. Secondly, my opinion of the person in question is that he is very well versed in the legality of his actions. He was never disrespectful to the LEO. However, I do have some concerns over those who feel that it is the citizen who is carrying openly some how should back down and give up his right to move around freely without interference. In States where open carry is allowed by statute I believe the 911 operators and LEO should be educated as to the law. For example, when the call came in "Man with a gun" the 911 operator should ask "What is he doing?" If he's pushing a shopping cart around the Walmart and acting in a normal manner than the caller should be told that that type of activity is allowed since open carrry of firearm is legal in the state. If the open carry person is brandishing a firearm or actiing in a threatening manner than a different response is required. Law Enforcement Officers should be familiar with the open carry laws. I am not a trouble maker and I am supporter of our police. But everytime we get stopped without out a valid reason we give up a little more of our rights. Our LEOs and support people have bigger fish to fry rather than chasing down these kind of things.
Heck yeah.... +100......
But wait....that would require the involved participants, other than the open-carrier, to actually think, use logic and input, and make calculated deductions....and, egads, decisions........ all on their own, no less.........perish the thought. ::) ::)
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Heck yeah.... +100......
But wait....that would require the involved participants, other than the open-carrier, to actually think, use logic and input, and make calculated deductions....and, egads, decisions........ all on their own, no less.........perish the thought.
We've been letting them do that in politics for ages and look how well that's worked out.
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We used to have a "Situation" in Ohio.
When our CCW law was passed, one of the "poison pills" that was included was that you had to have your weapon in plain sight when in a vehicle. Which meant that you had to expose your weapon while you had one foot in and one foot out of your car (I guess)....and cover it with one foot in and one foot out when leaving your car.
Leaving aside the headaches and safety concerns this caused, the law also applied to motorcycles.
Now, many folks tend to think anyone on a bike is belongs to Hell's Angels to start with so add an exposed side arm and you've got all kinds of bad situations likely to occur...the least of which would be a rash of "Mad Biker" 911 calls.
That part of the law, along with many other onerous provisions, have been written out since the initial passage.
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When our CCW law was passed, one of the "poison pills" that was included was that you had to have your weapon in plain sight when in a vehicle. Which meant that you had to expose your weapon while you had one foot in and one foot out of your car (I guess)....and cover it with one foot in and one foot out when leaving your car.
That's one hell of a magic trick.
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That's one hell of a magic trick.
Yeah...the law didn't specify one foot in and one foot out....just that inside you had to be in plain sight and outside concealed, so if you were all the way in or all the way out you had to be violating one side of that law.
The poor motorcycle guys would have to balance on one leg with the other up in the air over the saddle....hopping around while they repositioned their weapon.