The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: robheath on June 24, 2012, 06:40:39 PM
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I went and shot this weekend. The slide release lever walked out on my Para 7.45 single stack. Bad slide release lever, Bad plunger or spring, Damaged slide???
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I went and shot this weekend. The slide release lever walked out on my Para 7.45 single stack. Bad slide release lever, Bad plunger or spring, Damaged slide???
My guess is the lever. On my Gov. Model, there is a small lip on top of the lever just behind the lip on the grooved thumb surface. That lip rides inside the slide and retains the lever. The lever is removed by holding slide so the small notch, the one behind the slide hold open notch, allows to the lip to pass through the notch.
The plunger might provide enough pressure to keep the the lever in place during operation when the notch passes the lip, but if it is walking out gradually, it my guess would be the lip is worn or missing.
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You weren't doing something silly, were you? ::)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDXk-fGjS_qGHJtiwGYvwe411ZtHr-eFXzjjRd5wWQQZkB69wh)
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My guess is the same as Solus.
Your lever may broken. I have a spare if you need one. Send me a PM with your address and I'll drop it in the mail this week sometime. You can get a Wilson Combat bulletproof for about 60 bucks but mine will get you back on the range for free...or you can call Para and they'll maybe ship you one for free as well!
Let me know..
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My guess is the same as Solus.
Your lever may broken. I have a spare if you need one. Send me a PM with your address and I'll drop it in the mail this week sometime. You can get a Wilson Combat bulletproof for about 60 bucks but mine will get you back on the range for free...or you can call Para and they'll maybe ship you one for free as well!
Let me know..
Thanks for the offer but I have a few spares. Sometime this pm I'll have time to look at it. The reason I thoght maybe the plunger or spring is because it would hang up in the take down notch in the slide. OH and no I wasn't doing anything silly. Thanks guys. I'll post what I find. If it's the plunger, it may just need a good cleaning. Don't think I've ever pulled it out and payed it that much attn.
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Thanks for the offer but I have a few spares. Sometime this pm I'll have time to look at it. The reason I thoght maybe the plunger or spring is because it would hang up in the take down notch in the slide. OH and no I wasn't doing anything silly. Thanks guys. I'll post what I find. If it's the plunger, it may just need a good cleaning. Don't think I've ever pulled it out and payed it that much attn.
Yes, I was going to suggest you do a full take down and clean everything. The plunger, spring and housing don't get much attention in a field strip. Look forward to the report!
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OK fellas. I took the plunger and spring out and it was a bit gritty. Called a friend of mine who does refinishing and other custom work in New Orleans and its gonna get a sonic bath. I also went ahead and changed the slide stop lever with a Wilson extended that I had taken out for IWB carry ( just a little less bind with the origional ). I'll take the dremel to it this weekend. The wilson has a lil more beef to it at the spot that goes thru the takedown notch in the slide. I compaired the plunger spring to my Springfield gov. and they are the same but I will order a new one anyway. This Para has been my carry gun for 7 years now and has alwaye been my favorite. I have an origional Colt issued, a Springfield, and two Paras. I may have to swap to the Springfield for a while until some proofing at the range is done. Daily carry is just so bad on the finish that I've refinished the Para twice in that 7 years. Anyway thats as long winded as I get. I'll get it to the range soon and update this thread.
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Where the rounded end of the plunger engages the slide stop, there needs to be a dimple made, then using a small cone shaped stone chucked into the dremel, feather that dimple into a tear drop shape that allows the slide stop to move upward even when the plunger is pressing against it.
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Where the rounded end of the plunger engages the slide stop, there needs to be a dimple made, then using a small cone shaped stone chucked into the dremel, feather that dimple into a tear drop shape that allows the slide stop to move upward even when the plunger is pressing against it.
Thats a good hint because I checked to see if there was a dimple like whats on the thumb safety. Their wasn't one, on the origional or the Wilson. I'll do that!
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My guess is the lever. On my Gov. Model, there is a small lip on top of the lever just behind the lip on the grooved thumb surface. That lip rides inside the slide and retains the lever. The lever is removed by holding slide so the small notch, the one behind the slide hold open notch, allows to the lip to pass through the notch.
The plunger might provide enough pressure to keep the the lever in place during operation when the notch passes the lip, but if it is walking out gradually, it my guess would be the lip is worn or missing.
+1
I'm thinking the top of the stop is worn enough to let it slip under.
Mic (or use calipers if you have them) the thickness (from top to bottom) on the part that is retained by the slide. Check it against another you have and see if there is a difference.
Remember that the slide has to be retracted to a certain spot so the stop can go through the notch and be retained by the slide.....regardless of the spring and plunger.
I'm pushing on one right now and it won't move.
Remember, once the slide stop is in its proper place, you can't (or shouldn't be able to) push it to the left...unless it is lined up with the take-down notch on the slide. If the stop comes out in any other position, it is worn on the top edge and should be replaced.
Put the old one in properly and with the slide in battery, it should not move to the left when pressed. Theoretically, it shouldn't move when firing because it would have to jump through the notch......but I have seen it happen and lock up a slide in action.
I am definitely interested in the cause/solution in this one.
**As a side note, the Colt I have in my hand does not have a dimple on the factory slide stop either.
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Isn't it great to have a forum where guys actually know what they are talking about!
I concur with Peg and Solus
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One other idea, and I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but perhaps the lever was not fully installed prior to shooting...left partially installed after cleaning, or some other mishap. If you can't slide it out while it's in battery, then maybe it was a one-time screwup.
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One other idea, and I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but perhaps the lever was not fully installed prior to shooting...left partially installed after cleaning, or some other mishap. If you can't slide it out while it's in battery, then maybe it was a one-time screwup.
Things happen.
The darkest day of my freaking life was our last inspection at Parris Island.
The inspecting officer took my rifle and I heard a clatter. ???
He suggested I look down, where I saw my right hand guard lying on the ground :o
It had not been fully seated when I last cleaned the rifle. ::)
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One other idea, and I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but perhaps the lever was not fully installed prior to shooting...left partially installed after cleaning, or some other mishap. If you can't slide it out while it's in battery, then maybe it was a one-time screwup.
I could have been a Colt Gold Cup NM owner because of this once. A guy at a gun show was trying to sell one that had been traded to him for some paint work. He didn't know what he had and had taken the stop out and didn't have it all the way in and thought the gun was "broken".........he wanted $300. I asked him if the gun were in working order would the price go up and he said no, all he wanted was what the guy had owed him and no more. All I had was a checkbook, because I had already bought a Ser. 70 for cash, and because he didn't know me, he wouldn't take a check......(it was on a Sunday, and back before everyone under the sun had ATM cards to get ready cash).........
Sooooo, I fixed his gun for him and told him not to take less than $500 for the gun. ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks for all the good info. The lever was seated all the way. This happened several times at the range. I would reseat it and give it a good going over and about 5 rounds later it done it again. I did notice that their is a little mor material on the Wilson than the Para lever. I thought that their should be a small divit in the lever for the plunger to ingage. The take down notch on the slide passes the point of takedown on every shot. What keeps this from happening if not plunger tention. I will check the deminsions cloesly. I have callipers but they are metric. ( all my equipment I work on is from Norway ). Durring take down, you simply pull the slide back and align the notch and press out the slide stop/release lever. And I know you guys know that I'm just going thru it in my mind. What I am trying figure out is what has worn or loosened up to cause this. I have owned 1911s for some 30 years. They are by far my favorites because I can do a lot of the work on them myself. So needless to say I want to figure this out. I've never had this happen before. I'll let y'all know what I find out.
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From what you describe you should look at the other end of the lever. I don't know (I'm no gunsmith) but there is some kind of detent at the other end of the lever that holds it horizontally. Maybe that area has worn.
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There doesn't seem to be anything holding the lever horizontally on my Gov. Model but the friction of the plunger on the flat face of the lever. Mine has no detent.
With the slide removed the lever is easily pushed out.
Perhaps the inside lip on the lever has been worn and is able to get partially under the slide so that the force of the action cycling is enough for that little push into the take down notch.
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Ok, guys. Tech support at Para USA says the only thing holding the slide stop lever is the plunger and spring adn that their is no divit in the slide stop. Their is a divit in the thumb safety but we knew that. I asked if the bbl link could be worn or streached. He said it could be but that would not cause this. That would lead to poor timeing, lock up of slide to frame and accuracy. He said to first change the lever, then the plunger and spring if the new lever did not fix it. If the new plunger and spring don't do the trick, it will have to go to Para for a new plunger tube. Paras are not staked in, they are part of the frame.
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Take a flat tip screw driver with the slide stop out and push on plunger it should move back out freely .
If it doesn't take the plunger and spring out, clean them and run a pipe cleaner through the tube then try it again.
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Take a flat tip screw driver with the slide stop out and push on plunger it should move back out freely .
If it doesn't take the plunger and spring out, clean them and run a pipe cleaner through the tube then try it again.
Thats exactly what I did lastnight. I have pipe cleaners for my gas tubes on my ARs. I have replaced the slide stop with a Wilson Combat that I already had. I'll get it to the range this weekend and let y
all know what happens.
Thanks guys, I had never had this happen and I consider myself pretty good with JMB's greatest design (IMHO ) so this was an eye opener for me.
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Thats exactly what I did lastnight. I have pipe cleaners for my gas tubes on my ARs. I have replaced the slide stop with a Wilson Combat that I already had. I'll get it to the range this weekend and let y
all know what happens.
Thanks guys, I had never had this happen and I consider myself pretty good with JMB's greatest design (IMHO ) so this was an eye opener for me.
Look forward to hearing your results.
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Ok, guys. Tech support at Para USA says the only thing holding the slide stop lever is the plunger and spring adn that their is no divit in the slide stop. Their is a divit in the thumb safety but we knew that. I asked if the bbl link could be worn or streached. He said it could be but that would not cause this. That would lead to poor timeing, lock up of slide to frame and accuracy. He said to first change the lever, then the plunger and spring if the new lever did not fix it. If the new plunger and spring don't do the trick, it will have to go to Para for a new plunger tube. Paras are not staked in, they are part of the frame.
Actually....with the 1911 completely assembled correctly, the slide itself holds the stop in because the part of the stop (arrow in my previous post's photo) is captured behind the inside of the slide face. That is why it must line up with the notch for take-down. It shouldn't come out, even if the plunger and spring are missing, unless the take-down notch is lined up.
Unless I'm missing something, the only way a lever can come out is for the top of the slide stop to be worn enough to slip under the bottom of the slide or the bottom of the slide has to be worn...or the slide to frame fit is loose enough to allow it to slip out without binding the slide.......or just by a freak of timing and slide cycle speed it is popping out at the notch (hard to see happening under normal slide speeds, but I've seen strange things before).
With the slide on the frame, can the slide be wiggled upwards?.....Or rocked side to side?
With the gun assembled with the old stop in place....move the slide back and forth in different locations (other than lined up with the slot) and see if it will push out with finger pressure. That will tell you exactly what/where the problem is.
My curiosity abounds here.
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One caution .
Be careful when you shoot it !
I've crashed enough machine tooling to know that if a moving part isn't where it belongs when it movs the results can be noisy, dangerous and expensive.
Thank God They never made me supply my own tooling ;D
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Actually....with the 1911 completely assembled correctly, the slide itself holds the stop in because the part of the stop (arrow in my previous post's photo) is captured behind the inside of the slide face. That is why it must line up with the notch for take-down. It shouldn't come out, even if the plunger and spring are missing, unless the take-down notch is lined up.
Unless I'm missing something, the only way a lever can come out is for the top of the slide stop to be worn enough to slip under the bottom of the slide or the bottom of the slide has to be worn...or the slide to frame fit is loose enough to allow it to slip out without binding the slide.......or just by a freak of timing and slide cycle speed it is popping out at the notch (hard to see happening under normal slide speeds, but I've seen strange things before).
With the slide on the frame, can the slide be wiggled upwards?.....Or rocked side to side?
With the gun assembled with the old stop in place....move the slide back and forth in different locations (other than lined up with the slot) and see if it will push out with finger pressure. That will tell you exactly what/where the problem is.
My curiosity abounds here.
The slide stop is not slideing out from under the slide. It will pop out just enough to lock the slide ( or actually jam the slide ) as the take down notch lines up when the slide moves rearward durring firing. It is as if I am trying to disassemble the gun but only push the lever part way out. When I looked this up on the internet I was surprised that it was a common problem...sorta. In other words if the gun is in battery, you can not push the lever out. It will only come out if the notch is lined up. If you want to see what I meen, Put slight pressure on the right side of the lever as if you are going to field strip the gun. Then rack the slide. With the slight pressure as the notch lines up, the lever moves over just enough to lodge in the notch and jam the slide. Ive been shooting for a long time and unless I woke up brain dead the other day this is mechanical and not my shooting technique.
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Ahaaaa!!!
Gotcha now.....I'm pickin' up what you are puttin' down now....... ;D
That adds to the possibilities.......
In that case, heck, the pin itself (where it goes through the frame and barrel link could possibly be worn enough to let it slip....or the holes in the frame could be wallowed out....but I'm inclined to go with the former and say it is the pin diameter just making it enough of a sloppy fit to work itself out.
Sometimes thousandths will do it.
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Ahaaaa!!!
Gotcha now.....I'm pickin' up what you are puttin' down now....... ;D
That adds to the possibilities.......
In that case, heck, the pin itself (where it goes through the frame and barrel link could possibly be worn enough to let it slip....or the holes in the frame could be wallowed out....but I'm inclined to go with the former and say it is the pin diameter just making it enough of a sloppy fit to work itself out.
Sometimes thousandths will do it.
Just so long as you're not stepping in it. ;D
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Sounds like Tyler's Detent might solve the problem.
It would have to be deep enough to secure the lever under recoil but shallow enough not to hinder disassemble....and be feathered as Tyler described to allow upward movement.
Might be worth a try.
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Just so long as you're not stepping in it. ;D
No sir.... I use a square-point shovel. ;) ;D ;D ;D
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Check online for Clark Custom Guns. They are based in La. Give them a call and ask them. They have been around for years and know their stuff and 1911's also! LOL
Richard
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Check online for Clark Custom Guns. They are based in La. Give them a call and ask them. They have been around for years and know their stuff and 1911's also! LOL
Richard
You know...I never thought of them and they built me a compitition gun years ago.( When I had money for that kinda thing ) Yes I might try Tylers suggestion. I will replace the plunger spring and test at the range this weekend. If I still have issues I'll put in the divit.
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Ahaaaa!!!
Gotcha now.....I'm pickin' up what you are puttin' down now....... ;D
That adds to the possibilities.......
In that case, heck, the pin itself (where it goes through the frame and barrel link could possibly be worn enough to let it slip....or the holes in the frame could be wallowed out....but I'm inclined to go with the former and say it is the pin diameter just making it enough of a sloppy fit to work itself out.
Sometimes thousandths will do it.
After jumping in late and tearing down my own full size S&W 1911,.....the detective "little voice" in my head saw the light and agree with the strong likelihood in agreement with Pegleg.
Something has become "wallowed out" right along those lines. The gun compensated under duress. Poor thing,.... ::)
Considering the tight tolerances of the S&W, if a wallowing were to occur at the barrel link, (a moving and flexible part subject to wear), and the pin that is so relied upon, is a very real possibility.
Compare to another. Great post. for those that cherish their 1911's...It's a tune up on a 57 Chevy. No special tools required, Just a credit to John Browning, who knew some parts will wear out with rampant shooters.... ;D
Between Wilson Combat and Para,....a solution will be at hand soon.
Again, good post. and a heads up for others.
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Yes I am very suprised at the response. 4 pages...thats a record for me. As I've stated before I don't post a lot. But I lurk here all the time. I really like the people on here and the collective wisdom of the crew here is great.
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Yes I am very suprised at the response. 4 pages...thats a record for me. As I've stated before I don't post a lot. But I lurk here all the time. I really like the people on here and the collective wisdom of the crew here is great.
It comes from the fact we could bust the corners off a BB. ;D
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Yes I am very suprised at the response. 4 pages...thats a record for me. As I've stated before I don't post a lot. But I lurk here all the time. I really like the people on here and the collective wisdom of the crew here is great.
Well, what did you expect?
No one here can turn their back on a sick 1911....not even us Glock shooters ;D
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Well, what did you expect?
No one here can turn their back on a sick 1911....not even us Glock shooters ;D
Now I like that...... :D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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OK, here's the rangr report. The plunger spring I ordered has not come in yet. I went and shot anyway. 150 rounds, two handed. one handed even shot rap video style. No malfunctions. I shot slow and steady and I shot rapid. No problems at all even with cheap dirty gritty Winchester white box Wally world ammo. When I came home, I used my calipers and their is a slight difference in the levers. When I was a Deputy Sherrif I went to a Glock armorers school about the time Glocks first starterd to get popular. The guy giving some of the class was a 1911 buff. Back then most 1911s were a little rough in the accuracy dept. He told me to pay attn. to where the slide stop leve went through the bbl link. on each side are two lugs that should solidlt engage the levers pin and show wear. The better the wear mark on the pin the more accurate the pistol would be because the indicated tightness. I don't know if this is true but I do know I cold blued the pin a while back and the wear marks are not their any more. When I first got the gun I looked at these wear marks and they were nice and even. Any way I tell y'all this to let you know that the pin has worn down enough to no longer be tight in the bbl link. Or the bbl link is now worn. New plunger, spring and bbl link shoulb be in soon. I think my problem is already solved with the new lever. Sorry for the long post but I feel relieved and wanted ther share that with friends.
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I forgot to mention that the range was packed. I went on sat. morning, 90 degrees 90 percent humidity. This is the parish sheriffs dept. range. Hot as hell and all outside. It's only ever packed after some big political event. Such as Obomcare I guess.
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Sounds like you're on top of it and you'll have her runnin' good as (broken in)new soon.
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Great to hear it is running!!!!
You are correct about the barrel link-to-pin fit, as well as the lugs riding the pin on each side of the pin.....that is where you get the rear barrel lock-up in battery...... And also where too much wear will let you experience 'pin slop' when the barrel drops down after unlocking.
A good way to test in the field to see if the lugs are riding on the pin and locking up OK is to press down on the barrel hood with the gun (unloaded, of course) in battery. It should not move downward easily.
A Sharpie marker on the face of the lugs and mag-full of full power loads will usually show how the lugs are riding the pin.
Anyway, glad you are getting it worked out....we don't like sick guns around here....particularly 1911's....... ;) :D ;D
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Great to hear it is running!!!!
You are correct about the barrel link-to-pin fit, as well as the lugs riding the pin on each side of the pin.....that is where you get the rear barrel lock-up in battery...... And also where too much wear will let you experience 'pin slop' when the barrel drops down after unlocking.
A good way to test in the field to see if the lugs are riding on the pin and locking up OK is to press down on the barrel hood with the gun (unloaded, of course) in battery. It should not move downward easily.
A Sharpie marker on the face of the lugs and mag-full of full power loads will usually show how the lugs are riding the pin.
Anyway, glad you are getting it worked out....we don't like sick guns around here....particularly 1911's....... ;) :D ;D
Thanks Peg. Now that you say that I think I remember something like that before. If I knew how to post pics on here I would put some up. Any way it seems to be on the mend now. Like I stated above, even with the rap video hold the lever did not slide out. And yes I hate sick guns too. I love 1911s, my wife ie always giving me a hard time when I tell her it's time to buy a new gun. She says "let me guess, a .45" which is her term for 1911. Thanks every one for the help. Now its time to have her refinished. What is y'alls opinion of powder coating on firearms?
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Be careful of the tolerances with Powder coat.
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No way to keep the powder out of the internal surfaces unless you're very good at taping the frame.
I just left a company that had a powder coat line and it was a delicate operation on close tolerance parts. We were making parts far more critical than firearms tolerances and the powder can be a real pain in the ass to control. Too many variables with temperature, humidity and powder type/manufacturer to bother with.
Try the Duracoat or just plain bluing if you're dealing with an all steel gun or anodizing for aluminum.
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Be careful of the tolerances with Powder coat.
+1
The powder coating is thicker than something like Cera-Kote.