The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: mkm on July 17, 2012, 07:48:48 AM
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Seems like police going to the wrong door is getting more and more common. Still a lot of details missing here, but it's tragic.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/deputies-shoot-kill-man-knocking-163819466.html (http://news.yahoo.com/video/deputies-shoot-kill-man-knocking-163819466.html)
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A police spokesperson said that if you point a gun at a deputy, you will get shot.
I can agree with that to the same extent they will agree that if someone points a gun at a citizen, they will get shot too...by the citizen if they are armed.
It's getting to be a tough world out there, with bad guys dressing like police officers and attacking/killing folks. The SOP needs to change to reflect this type of situation and I don't think it should be so the citizen is placed in more jeopardy. I don't want police officers to be sitting ducks, but it is them who traditionally, if not legally, are to "Protect and Serve" and the risk should be theirs, not the citizens.
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Why did the victim open the door with a gun drawn? A knock on my door in the middle of the night does not get answered.
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Taking into account poor reporting and missing information:
1. The deputies did not identify or announce (by their own admission) ???
2. At night, but how late
3. If he had fear why didn't he call 911
4. I can see going to the door to look through peep or window if the knocking or pounding is relentless
5. I answer the door with a firearm, and when I'm not wearing a holster it is in hand (kept mostly out of sight, but in hand)
It is our right, and the combination of situation and lack of identification lead to this mess
6. Let me stereotype from the photo, sort through the sketchy information, and put on my aluminum foil hat:
Is it possible they suspected this guy was up to something and took advantage of a situation to "make a mistake" but at the same time catch him at something ::)
Very poor reporting, but taking this strictly from what has been reported I believe that law enforcement needs to know that even if we ignore what Solus said about bad guys in disguise these are dangerous times and if they are going to be careless we will have dead law enforcement due to their thinking they are bullet proof and all powerful.
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Why did the victim open the door with a gun drawn? A knock on my door in the middle of the night does not get answered.
thats when I get ready to repel, let them come to you in your own AO . Kick in my door , meet my dogs , see you on the other side
8)
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Why did the victim open the door with a gun drawn? A knock on my door in the middle of the night does not get answered.
In this circumstance what happens next? Remember the young soldier in AZ or NM that came out to defend his wife and was riddled with bullets? There was a gentleman in Salem, OR that slept with a gun under his pillow after a rash of crime in his apartment complex and when LEOs came he thought it was trouble at his door and was killed for his trouble. Didn't matter much thought he wasn't white... or black... ::)
I agree its time to change the SOP on these types of encounters.
"It is not the strongest of species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change." Charles Darwin
If the bad guys are more responsive to change or law enforcement is caught behind the curve, like shooting civilians at the wrong address, who is going to win?
And if all law enforcement agree that an armed citizen answering the door in the middle of the night is going to get shot well then...
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" George Patton.
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Everyone, including law enforcement, needs to remember that there are property lines, and those lines are not defined by the walls of our houses. We have a right to expect a level of safety and privacy within those property lines. We live in a rural setting, our yard is roughly 600' x 600' (a little over 7 acres), and there is a county road right of way on one side. My view point is that I have a reason to expect that nobody will be in my house without an invitation from us, and anyone within the perimeter of the fences, hedge (along right of way), or in the grove (on two sides of yard) are also needing permission but have a chance to ask.
My standard but adaptable to situations is that anybody within my home or an outbuilding we are in without permission is a threat; anybody with in a perimeter that extends eight feet from the walls or railings of our home and deck and not just passing through on their way to or from the front door is a threat; anybody that knocks and does not leave with no answer is a threat; and anybody that does not leave our property following an order to do so is a threat.
Due to our location the quickest we could count on law enforcement response is ten minutes, and it could take longer if the deputy is in another part of the county. This is the reason that we must all be prepared to protect our selves and not rely on the government.
I have reacted to people on our yard in several levels:
I have met people at the door armed (almost always when I answer);
I have not hidden I am armed on occasion;
I have commanded that people leave from inside the house without exiting or opening a door;
And following a 911 call and ordering someone to leave, I have exited the house armed and ready (advised that closest help was a State Trooper 15 miles away, the people were sitting in our chairs behind the house, and after the command to leave they moved over by our vehicles not far from an entrance door) - These two were picked up by the Trooper on the road not far from our driveway, and they demanded my arrest. The Trooper waited at the end of our driveway until a local city officer and the local deputy arrived (these two know us well). They were already cuffed in the backseat, but they were then read their rights and separated while we were interviewed (more like a party without the beer and brats), we were then given the option to press charges. We did not press charges, but the two spent the night in the gray bar while being checked out, and the next morning extradition was started to IL based on warrants found.
What would I have done in this situation?
1. 911
2. Armed heavily, high power light, position in safe spot with entrance in sight
3. Wait for verified law enforcement to arrive
There are too many home invasions, general break ins, and law enforcement impersonation going on in today's world to be just accepting sloppy work by those that are supposed to protect us. Many of these officers are very good, but there are too many power hungry thugs behind badges today!
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I would just like to point out, for not alot, one can buy a wireless intercom/ security cameras.
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Every state in the union has had cases of police murdering law abiding citizens after getting an address wrong.
The case I know of here in NH happened with the force Mossad Ayoob came from in Hooksett.
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Here is the question.
You are going door to door to solicit for a charity, a political candidate or for signatures on a petition...or maybe you are visiting friends for the first time and, by mistake go to 518 Kirby Road instead of 815 Kirby Road. You happen to be armed legally, as is your custom, and a person with a gun in their hand opens the door.
What do you do? My point is that the response of the police should not be much different than yours.
If they feel the correct action is to open fire, I should think that should be an acceptable response for you also.
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This needs to be in bigger type...
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster
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"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster
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One in every crowd... ::)