The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Steven Cline on July 19, 2012, 10:33:42 AM
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Should you visit most swimming locations you will notice that they have the pool, diving area, lap lane and the wading/kiddies pool.
The swimming area is where the adults are playing. This is like the public range. They can actually get themselves into trouble if they go too deep. They splash around a bit, dive under the water, take a few strokes, and tickle their girl-friend. Like the 7 yard line they are doing some actual shooting, but not much, very controlled, very safe. Not very fast, not very well, and with no real skill evident.
The deep-end with the diving boards is like a private bay on a range. For you unfamiliar- some ranges will rent you a bay for so-many dollars for a few hours and you and your buddies can go shoot a bit more freestyle. It’s for a bit of the show-offs. They don’t swim far. They don’t dive well. Just like the shooters on the private bay don’t have any real talent either. But they get to ratta-tat-tat, do a reload if they like, shoot a bit on the move if they think to do so.
The lap lane is for the actual swimmers; the water athletes. Ranges have their lap lanes. They are the practice sessions for the club members, the small group of (or individual shooters) who make use of the private bays for real practice. They stretch their limits, set up multiple targets, paper and steel, walls, and more to really test out their guns, gear and limits. This group has it's long-range riflemen and it's bulls-eye shooters, it's PPC, IDPA, USPSA/IPSC, it's Steel Challenge. They are the 1500m and 200m freestyle. They are the medley swingers and breast-strokers.
Before the pool opens there might be some lessons being taught. Persons smart enough to know that the water is dangerous enroll themselves or their children in the classes. They learn to get their face wet, do the superman glide. Practice arm motions on the side of the pool until they “get it” and then practice some actual swimming. Some just learn to hold the gun, fire a shot that groups 6” at 7 yards, they can unload and reload. They might remember how to conduct some form of immediate action to correct a malfunction. Interested parties might take additional classes, learn different swimming strokes, the flip turn and the rules of the swimming competition.
Once in a while the pool get’s closed to the public for the swimming meets. Just like shooting matches when the real gunners show up in mass. The rules are in place. The times are kept, and violations are met with disqualifications. Skill and practice and conditioning is self-evident. Nobody is crying about fast suit or shaved legs. Everyone is seeking to actually win. If you finish last, no one wants to hear you snivel about, "that ain't how it's done in water ballet." This ain't water ballet. You showed up to a swim meet. Shut up and swim. If you can't swim or remember the order of the individual medley, that's too bad, guess you really aint' a swimmer.
Some with gravitate towards diving sports, maybe water ballet. While the diver knows how to get through the water, he’s no swimmer. He looks great twisting and turning in the air and doing everything leading up to being in the water. This is the tactical ninja. Nice physique can swim a bit, but his skill lays elsewhere. He can tell you everything about the approach, the leap, and the bounce. He can tell you how the point your toes, how to do the twist or the flip. But, he is out of his element when he hits the water. He can swim a short distance and make it look good for that short distance because he does it enough; don’t ask him to do a 400 IM, though. The water ballet is interesting. Takes strength, the ability to swim but it’s all about coordination with others. These are a lot like the SWAT guys. They line up on the edge of the pool, enter in concert with each other, swim around sneak under water and come up at the same time and make flashy motions with their arms wile treading water. It’s like swimming, but ain’t. Everyone looks good in the same swimsuit and doing the same movements… just don’t ask them to spring a 100m butterfly… they can probably get it done. They just can't do it as well as the guy who actually puts in the laps.
Cross train swimmer with a diver and a water ballet and you have a hell of athlete. But, one skill will probably suffer at expense to another.
The diver has skill, and if you can’t do it, you can’t do it. Just try to do the water-ballet, most of ya will cramp in a couple minutes. It takes dedication and training to be a good diver or be select for the water ballet team. While the skills are associated with swimming- it’s not swimming.
The whole time- the kiddie pool has been sitting over there. The mother’s are over there supervising the kids who can’t swim; they are hooting and hollering, jumping off the 6” lip into the 4” water and splashing water up in the air. This is the internet. Where the kids play and moderators moderate. Sometimes a swimmer visits the kids in the wading pool. The kids in the wading pool can see the real swimmers over there and think that they are doing the same thing when they lay in the few inches of water and pull themselves along the bottom. Maybe an adult takes them to the shallowest end of the pool and lets them walk down the steps until the water is at their chin or jump off the edge to mommy’s waiting arms. But, they are more comfortable in the kiddie pool where they don’t actually have to swim.
Should you ever fall out of the boat in rough water, if the canoe every sinks. Having played in the wading pool won't save your ass. Having a few lessons won't carry you very far. Your diving is irrelevant and so is your water ballet. Having jumped off the 3m board on Saturdays is little consolation as you sink to the bottom. It's the lap swimming that is going to get you to the bank. Having shot some matches is inoculation against panic as the cold water seeps in. When you realize it's do or die time, the lap swimmer kicks off his shoes, puts his face in the water and starts stroking for shore- he already knows what to do and how to do. And, more importantly, that he can.
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I wonder what type of swimmer the OP considers himself to br.
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I was trying hard not to comment here, but I broke down.
If you fall out of a boat or the canoe sinks, just being able to tread water will go along way to keeping you alive. You don't have to be an Olympic swimmer to make it to the other side. Also, it's a good idea (and required in a lot of places) to keep a life jacket handy when boating.
As to swimming and shooting, I thankfully haven't done both at the same time, but I did swim with my gun. There's a thread around here somewhere on that. It's also reccommended that you use ball rounds while shooting in water.
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Steven,
Why don't you just start your own blog rather than utilizing an existing forum for your soap box? There is a difference between posting and sharing, and writing volumes on a given topic. I don't see much diversity in your posts, so I don't understand why you choose to utilize an established forum rather than develop your own business.
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I was trying hard not to comment here, but I broke down.
If you fall out of a boat or the canoe sinks, just being able to tread water will go along way to keeping you alive. You don't have to be an Olympic swimmer to make it to the other side. Also, it's a good idea (and required in a lot of places) to keep a life jacket handy when boating.
As to swimming and shooting, I thankfully haven't done both at the same time, but I did swim with my gun. There's a thread around here somewhere on that. It's also reccommended that you use ball rounds while shooting in water.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=20034.msg253082#msg253082
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Thanks for the post, Steve; all good points.
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Maybe Water Polo is more the hot live action competition that should be mentioned.
Can teach the basics. control, all kinds of swimming skills....but hasn't much to do with living through your boat sinking in rough water.
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I wonder what type of swimmer the OP considers himself to br.
I think this might be an answer to your question...
The whole time- the kiddie pool has been sitting over there. The mothers are over there supervising the kids who cant swim; they are hooting and hollering, jumping off the 6 lip into the 4 water and splashing water up in the air. This is the internet. Where the kids play and moderators moderate. Sometimes a swimmer visits the kids in the wading pool.
You know where I want to swim? I want to swim where Samuel Williams (of Florida Internet Cafe fame) swims. Seems like he got the job done. I might even get something out of reading his post - if he chose to post here.
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Steven, I see where you are going, with 30 yrs of competition behind me in all the disciplines you mentioned and more. After a while, you know your skills and want to test them, and so you do. After another while you realize you might be good at this, now swimming does not require tools, like shooting, shooting is more like racing cars, now you do not show up to a race not expecting to win, although some people do it for the thrill, god bless them. For most of us, we put on our gamefaces on, and show up and shoot. Putting one discipline above another is counter productive, I like shooting up close and fast, slow and accurate, long range with both pistol and rifle. The best is after the match, showing the young ones and those not yet up to par, it is my pleasure to report, shooters are getting better and better.
;)
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Ya caught me Bennie...I'm a thrill seeker. Even though I suck, shooting is a big thrill. Swimming, eh...not so much. One arm over the other...that's about it. Now guitar playing....that's a drug.
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I was trying hard not to comment here, but I broke down.
If you fall out of a boat or the canoe sinks, just being able to tread water will go along way to keeping you alive. You don't have to be an Olympic swimmer to make it to the other side. Also, it's a good idea (and required in a lot of places) to keep a life jacket handy when boating.
As to swimming and shooting, I thankfully haven't done both at the same time, but I did swim with my gun. There's a thread around here somewhere on that. It's also reccommended that you use ball rounds while shooting in water.
That's actutally a great post. Fits with the analogy being built. Thanks for the contribution. But in the analogy, treading water would be like pulling the gun and not using it. With so many DGUs were no shots are fired that works... but what about when you HAVE to swim to shore.
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Steven,
Why don't you just start your own blog rather than utilizing an existing forum for your soap box? There is a difference between posting and sharing, and writing volumes on a given topic. I don't see much diversity in your posts, so I don't understand why you choose to utilize an established forum rather than develop your own business.
I see, the forum is for the free exchange of ideas except when y'all don't like the ideas?
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Maybe Water Polo is more the hot live action competition that should be mentioned.
Can teach the basics. control, all kinds of swimming skills....but hasn't much to do with living through your boat sinking in rough water.
Interesting. How so. Powerful treading water, strong burst of speed swimming. Muscling in the water. Strong basics carry one through in many/most situations.
I suspect you have more thoughts I like to hear. Maybe experience with rough water you could share?
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http://630wpro.com/Article.asp?id=2496946&spid=18076
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Steven, I don't disagree that gaming is fun, improves shooting skill (it's trigger time), and could help in a bad situation. Admittedly, I've never done it. However, I don't feel like gamers are the pinnacle of shooting. Are you a better shot then me? Probably. Are you faster than me? More than likely. Do you send more rounds down range me? Definately, my current situation doesn't allow for much shooting. Do I feel confident enough to get myself out of a situation? Yes. The goal in concealed carry is to never have to use it, and, if you do, end the threat and SURVIVE. I don't go out every day looking to go to war or shoot 20 people as fast as I can.
Now back to the swimming analogy.
The lap swimmers are use to swimming in a calm, clean environment with no interference. They swim well because they put all of their focus on technique. Throw a little salt, sand, dirt, turbulence, or bumping into the mix and they get distracted and slow way down. They lose their focus and edge when things aren't like what they are used to. An average swimmer with average ability may not be as fast or have as great of technique as the swim team member, but they aren't nearly as distracted when the setting isn't ideal. They don't know that conditions are supposed to be ideal for their technique to work. The Mythbusters (don't judge) did a test several years ago that dealt with swimming in syrup. They swam on their on and had an Olympic level swimmer brought in to swim for them in the test. What they found was that their times were more consistent between swimming in water and syrup than the professional. He was so use to swimming in ideal conditions that he lost focus and couldn't be consistent in something less than ideal.
Personally, I don't think the swimming analogy is all that great. It may be fairly accurate comparisons to an extent, but each is it's own distinct and very different sport. Divers can't swim as fast as swimmers and swimmers can't dive as well as divers. I'm willing to bet neither can tread water or hold their breath as long as a synchronized swimmer. And, none of them can take the beating and keep on going that a water polo player can. The one thing they can all do just as well as each other.....wait for it.....
pee in the kiddie pool!
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Interesting. How so. Powerful treading water, strong burst of speed swimming. Muscling in the water. Strong basics carry one through in many/most situations.
I suspect you have more thoughts I like to hear. Maybe experience with rough water you could share?
Haven't done it lately but when I was in my late 20s, I led canoe trips in Canada for Explorer Scouts, a co-ed Post.
If your canoe swamps, you don't want to get out in the water, it will beat you against rocks, floating logs and what ever else is handy.
But sometimes you have to.... Like the time I had too pull the young lady siting in the bow of my canoe out of her seat before the canoe was sucked under a fallen tree.
But you you cannot overpower the water, the best you can do is get it to work for you.
Like maneuvering a canoe in swift water, if you want go to one bank and point the bow at that bank and paddle your heart out, you might make it, but it will be far down the river and you better have a ton of endurance.
On the other hand, if you point at the opposite bank, your broadside will be exposed to the current so that it washes you to the shore you want. You will find your self paddling backwards in order to control your path as often as forward, and seldom at full strength output.
If you don't use that current when swimming, you will be fighting the current instead of letting it help you.
Not something any swimmer is going to learn in a pool, be it the deep end or kiddy pool, no matter what "water sport" they are pumping themselves up with.
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"OK. You've convinced me. Competitive shooting only improves trigger control, indexing, accuracy, safe weapon handling, target acquisition, transitions, recoil control, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, shooting in different positions, drawing from a holster, shooting one handed, shooting targets of varying size, difficulty, and distance, and doing those things under the pressure of the clock. Clearly those are skills that are of little importance in self defense or tactical shooting. " -The post which went ignored and unaddressed."
Steven, I agree with the above, however they are skill developement, no problem with that, but it does not include strategy, most of us are beyond new skill sets, but heavy on strategy. When I began, there were no rules other than our own, weak hand reloading, drawing weak hand, shooting over walls, swinging off ropes, and more, Things you would pay big money to learn now, We ran a hot range, every body was loaded as soon as they came in, never had an accident. I am glad I got to do it, all of our scenarios were base on real life, set your watch to go off every hr or so and just look at were you were, make a stage based on that.
By the way, I am an NROI, chief range officer, my USPSA # A903 one of the 1st thousand.
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Steven, I don't disagree that gaming is fun, improves shooting skill (it's trigger time), and could help in a bad situation. Admittedly, I've never done it. However, I don't feel like gamers are the pinnacle of shooting. Are you a better shot then me? Probably. Are you faster than me? More than likely. Do you send more rounds down range me? Definately, my current situation doesn't allow for much shooting. Do I feel confident enough to get myself out of a situation? Yes. The goal in concealed carry is to never have to use it, and, if you do, end the threat and SURVIVE. I don't go out every day looking to go to war or shoot 20 people as fast as I can.
Well, thank you, but it's not really about me.
Now back to the swimming analogy.
The lap swimmers are use to swimming in a calm, clean environment with no interference. They swim well because they put all of their focus on technique. Throw a little salt, sand, dirt, turbulence, or bumping into the mix and they get distracted and slow way down. They lose their focus and edge when things aren't like what they are used to. An average swimmer with average ability may not be as fast or have as great of technique as the swim team member, but they aren't nearly as distracted when the setting isn't ideal. They don't know that conditions are supposed to be ideal for their technique to work. The Mythbusters (don't judge) did a test several years ago that dealt with swimming in syrup. They swam on their on and had an Olympic level swimmer brought in to swim for them in the test. What they found was that their times were more consistent between swimming in water and syrup than the professional. He was so use to swimming in ideal conditions that he lost focus and couldn't be consistent in something less than ideal.
This response wasn't unanticipated.
And, you could be correct, but I don't think you are. If you through in the sand, dirt, rough water and other distractions the swimmer slows down... all of the persons slow down. This is why we should practice the shooting, practice the swimming. Because the stronger the swimmer you are the less the adverse conditions affect you.
The better swimmer slows down the least, suffers the least under adverse conditions- his conditioning and technique suffer less from adjusting.
The poor swimmer can't adjust at all. The poor shooter who has little confidence in a nice calm pool panics and drowns, the practiced swimmer doesn't.
I don't know if the mythbusters experiment was all that applicable.
I'm been eyeballing the 10-8 standards and thought Falla did a hella good job maintaining consistently good pistol skills through the thing. I've no doubt I could shoot those standards within the -0 and well under the par time. The ones which worry me are the ones I don't practice- the one handed reload and rack off the belt. But only because those are skills I don't I don't readily practice ( I did back on the SO, but haven't in 12 years).
This might bring up an interesting side topic- should Falla be considered a better shooter than I if my anticipation is true? Were I run consistent faster times than Jim and only miss par by .25 on two different standards? I guess eveybody gets to make their own judgement. I wouldn't pass or fail someone for sometime like that. It's better used as a learning point- here's what you need to improve on.
Back to the thread.
Personally, I don't think the swimming analogy is all that great. It may be fairly accurate comparisons to an extent, but each is it's own distinct and very different sport. Divers can't swim as fast as swimmers and swimmers can't dive as well as divers. I'm willing to bet neither can tread water or hold their breath as long as a synchronized swimmer. And, none of them can take the beating and keep on going that a water polo player can. The one thing they can all do just as well as each other.....wait for it.....
pee in the kiddie pool!
;D
I really enjoyed the closure.
While I disagree and believe the analogy is valid, we actually agree. Here's why. The diving is more like any of the skills an LEO or military fighter has and practices; driving maybe. Operating the lights, radio, recalling 10-codes, etc. Impressive, necessary, but not swimming. The synchronized swimmers are like the SWAT and other entry teams- it's far more their work with the group/team that wins the day than their swimming ability. While some might think I was being insulting by using synchronized swimming- I wasn't and meant no insult. A swimmer can't jump into the pool with the synchronized swimmers and help them win the competition. But, he would not need to be taught to swim, or even tread water. He only needs to learn his place in the team and what's expected of him win. For most, that wouldn't be the hard part. Learning tactics is easy- learn to shoot is the hard part.
In the end I appreciate that you were considering the post and thinking and engaging in discussion. Thank you.
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Haven't done it lately but when I was in my late 20s, I led canoe trips in Canada for Explorer Scouts, a co-ed Post.
If your canoe swamps, you don't want to get out in the water, it will beat you against rocks, floating logs and what ever else is handy.
But sometimes you have to.... Like the time I had too pull the young lady siting in the bow of my canoe out of her seat before the canoe was sucked under a fallen tree.
But you you cannot overpower the water, the best you can do is get it to work for you.
Like maneuvering a canoe in swift water, if you want go to one bank and point the bow at that bank and paddle your heart out, you might make it, but it will be far down the river and you better have a ton of endurance.
On the other hand, if you point at the opposite bank, your broadside will be exposed to the current so that it washes you to the shore you want. You will find your self paddling backwards in order to control your path as often as forward, and seldom at full strength output.
If you don't use that current when swimming, you will be fighting the current instead of letting it help you.
Not something any swimmer is going to learn in a pool, be it the deep end or kiddy pool, no matter what "water sport" they are pumping themselves up with.
This exactly the kind of post I was hoping the thread would generate.
Am I correct in summarizing then that you are saying that there going to be situations that no diving, synchronized swimming, playing in the pool or lap swimming will prepare you for? Situations where only specific instruction will save you?
How would the total inability to swim play into this? How would not being as good of a swimmer hinder?
Please recall that the analogy is that we must all have to swim at some point... it's about swimming/shooting.
Falling into the water and letting the life-vest keep one afloat is more like letting the police come do the shooting for you- save you when you jumped into the deep end not knowing how to swim.
Or, did I miss your point entirely?
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"OK. You've convinced me. Competitive shooting only improves trigger control, indexing, accuracy, safe weapon handling, target acquisition, transitions, recoil control, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, shooting in different positions, drawing from a holster, shooting one handed, shooting targets of varying size, difficulty, and distance, and doing those things under the pressure of the clock. Clearly those are skills that are of little importance in self defense or tactical shooting. " -The post which went ignored and unaddressed."
Steven, I agree with the above, however they are skill developement, no problem with that, but it does not include strategy, most of us are beyond new skill sets, but heavy on strategy. When I began, there were no rules other than our own, weak hand reloading, drawing weak hand, shooting over walls, swinging off ropes, and more, Things you would pay big money to learn now, We ran a hot range, every body was loaded as soon as they came in, never had an accident. I am glad I got to do it, all of our scenarios were base on real life, set your watch to go off every hr or so and just look at were you were, make a stage based on that.
You probably won't like my next post, though I could be wrong. We just met and I don't know you at all. But I have a rather low opinion of strategy and tactics. I don't want to tip my hand to that just yet.
By the way, I am an NROI, chief range officer, my USPSA # A903 one of the 1st thousand.
Nice to meet, you.
I tried to verify the A903, the USPSA classifier look-up returned A903 could not be found... is your membership long expired?
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This exactly the kind of post I was hoping the thread would generate.
Am I correct in summarizing then that you are saying that there going to be situations that no diving, synchronized swimming, playing in the pool or lap swimming will prepare you for? Situations where only specific instruction will save you?
How would the total inability to swim play into this? How would not being as good of a swimmer hinder?
Please recall that the analogy is that we must all have to swim at some point... it's about swimming/shooting.
Falling into the water and letting the life-vest keep one afloat is more like letting the police come do the shooting for you- save you when you jumped into the deep end not knowing how to swim.
Or, did I miss your point entirely?
Don't worry about my point, you are missing the point of this thread.
I don't think anyone is saying that the skills you learn in a shooting game are not valuable, just that the artificial construct of the game can leave the participants with ingrained training and a mindset that could put them at risk in a real life encounter.
In my example, I equate water polo with a shooting sports game and swimming in rough water as a actual self defense shooting experience.
If someone has trained on how to deal with swimming in rough water they will do better than a game trained swimmer who will react within the parameters of the game rather than the parameters of how to deal with the rough water situation because they just don't have the knowledge of what to expect. Even though the game trained swimmer maybe able to out swim the other in any race in a pool, they will be at a severe in the rough water situation. Knowledge of what to expect is the key. You do not get that playing water polo.
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''Nice to meet, you.
I tried to verify the A903, the USPSA classifier look-up returned A903 could not be found... is your membership long expired? ''
Yes Steven, long expired, USPSA and I had a personal falling out, I have agreed not to discuss it on this forum out of respect for the good and decent shooters out there, and to not hinder any shooting sports.