The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: doctorknow on August 03, 2012, 11:25:28 PM
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I have been shooting .22s since age 8. My father was career Air Force and during the summer we had base activities we could chose from. One summer I chose riflery. What are the chances today?
My love affair with that caliber started then. Despite the 30+ firearms, about half pistols I own, the venerable .22 remains my favorite. Yes, I even use a Walther P22 with maxi-mags as my SD firearm.
I am also a doctor and during my surgical residency saw my fair share of gunshots. The "lowly" .22 was by far the most difficult round to remove and had the highest morbidity and mortality. The surgeons had to make a disproportionately large inscision both width and depth to get to it and then there was the problem of finding it.
Those who poo poo it, have someone shoot you in a non vital area such as your arm or leg and see how long it takes for you to go into shock or syncope (pass out.) The damage is even much worse or lethal if you hit a major artery, vein, or vital organ.
Sure, larger calibers have much better stopping power and that is the objective in a law enforcement situation. Cops do not want to kill the perp (mentally they would probably like to) but it causes major career hassles. In the military, we went from the .45 in Vietnam to the 9mm in the 80s because it was more suitable for military encounters.
During my rather checkered youth, I even brought down small deer with a JC Higgins (Sears used to sell guns) single shot .22. If you feel like you need a larger caliber by all means go for it. I just get tired of people knocking the .22 when they do not understand the forensics of the caliber.
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Welcome. I, too, love the .22, and although I don't want to be shot with one, think it is a bit light for self defense. Too, the rimfire rounds are as a general rule not as reliable as their centerfire brethern. Seen way too many .22s that did not go off. Even some of the high dollor stuff, every now and then you will encounter a dud round. But, to each his own. That is why they make so many different guns and ammo combinations.
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If you are happy carrying a .22 then I'm happy for you.
I, on the other hand, prefer to carry a larger caliber handgun for self-defense. Just like the police, my object is to stop the bad guy as quickly and efficiently as possible. If the bad guy lives or dies is of no concern at the time. And I truly could not care less about how hard the bullet is to remove if he does survive. So, I think you have your priorities a little skewed.
And I wont even mention the ethics of hunting deer with a .22.
Oh, and the selection of the 9mm for the military was more about politics and logistics than anything else.
P.S. Welcome to the board. Sorry to disagree with you right out of the gate but you did kind of set it up with your unconventional stance on caliber selection.
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Got to agree with Ichiban.
The reason the military went to 9MM had nothing to do with it's effectiveness and everything to do with politics.
The choice was made, against the advice of every one who actually had to use them, for purposes of interchangeability with the other, European, NATO members who think .32 and .380 are practical service rounds.
Look at the history, the military originally dumped the .38 because it did not do the job on Filipino rebels.
How is a 9MM, approximately the same bullet, at about the same speed, going to be any better ?
That is why over the last 11 years of actual combat use all military branches have been switching back to .45 as much as possible.
On the .22, great little round, inexpensive and fun to shoot.
For self defense it's better than nothing.
Yes people die from .22's, but the objective of SD is to stop the attack, what good is it to you if your attacker bleeds out 15 minutes after beating you to death ?
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For the sake of argument, let's say we get in a gunfight. You have your "big" gun and I my "little" .22. We fire at the same time. I die instantly, you hours later on the O.R. table.
Dead is dead my friend.
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If a .22 is all you have then it's all you have! I carry a .38 spcl snub myself that some may find inadequate but it's hot up here at the moment! Something is better than nothing and bigger is always better but it's still debatable!
My personal opinion (by direct observation) of the P22 for anything other than use as a hammer is my issue. I wouldn't trust my kids P22 to fire 5 out of 10 rounds from a magazine. It's been back and forth more than a few times to S&W! I told her to melt it down for making plastic fishing lures or something.
She prefers a Sig 9mm anyway..
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For the sake of argument, let's say we get in a gunfight. You have your "big" gun and I my "little" .22. We fire at the same time. I die instantly, you hours later on the O.R. table.
Dead is dead my friend.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and believe EVERYONE should carry what the have the most confidence in, or feel works for them best. But your comment just proved Ichiban's point. If you die instantly, you stop attacking me, but If I die hours later, there is no evidence in this statement that says I stopped attacking you for "hours".
I'm a firm believer in "location, location, location". That it is much more important where I hit you than what I hit you with. Both have their pluses, but would you rather be hit in the arm with a .45 acp, or between the eyes with a .22 lr? I know, neither. But that is not my point. ;D
Brian
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I don't have a dog in this fight, and believe EVERYONE should carry what the have the most confidence in, or feel works for them best. But your comment just proved Ichiban's point. If you die instantly, you stop attacking me, but If I die hours later, there is no evidence in this statement that says I stopped attacking you or the rest of your family for "hours".
I'm a firm believer in "location, location, location". That it is much more important where I hit you than what I hit you with. Both have their pluses, but would you rather be hit in the arm with a .45 acp, or between the eyes with a .22 lr? I know, neither. But that is not my point. ;D
Brian
FIFY
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Very cool Dr Know. And welcome.
Everyone here has a difference on caliber. I'm more of a large bore revolver fan, myself, but then I'm having my second or third childhood and want to prove how macho I am at the range by rapid firing my .44Mag. ;)
It is refreshing to get a different take on the .22. Many people push the round based on cost. I would be hard pressed to find a gun review that didn't mention how cheap they are to shoot within the first paragraph (or minute if it's a video). Over my considerable tenure in the school of hard knocks I've come to value other things more. (I haven't graduated yet, btw. I still struggle with the concept of value over cheapness at times.)
So anyway, again welcome.
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For the sake of argument, let's say we get in a gunfight. You have your "big" gun and I my "little" .22. We fire at the same time. I die instantly, you hours later on the O.R. table.
Dead is dead my friend.
You're not getting it.
The point is for the defender not to wind up dead.
As some one else pointed out, in between you being "dead instantly", and the attacker "hours later" , whats he done to your wife and kids ?
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I've carried a 22 before, it was all I had. Now it's not all I have and I wouldn't carry a 22.
Yes, they do have the "ability" to mess up a lot of stuff but only because they don't have the velocity or mass to punch in a straight line to the stuff you were aiming at in the first place. Shooting BG in the center chest, have it bounce off rib/sternum and punch holes in their intestines is not a selling point IMHO.
There is this too....
Welcome. I, too, love the .22, and although I don't want to be shot with one, think it is a bit light for self defense. Too, the rimfire rounds are as a general rule not as reliable as their centerfire brethern. Seen way too many .22s that did not go off.
Carry what you feel comfortable with and use what you have when needed. I just think there are far, far better choices out there.
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I've carried a 22 before, it was all I had. Now it's not all I have and I wouldn't carry a 22.
Yes, they do have the "ability" to mess up a lot of stuff but only because they don't have the velocity or mass to punch in a straight line to the stuff you were aiming at in the first place. Shooting BG in the center chest, have it bounce off rib/sternum and punch holes in their intestines is not a selling point IMHO.
There is this too....
Carry what you feel comfortable with and use what you have when needed. I just think there are far, far better choices out there.
Oh, I'm not saying don't carry one. We all agree that a .22 in your pocket is more effective than a .44 magnum you left home or in your vehicle
I would not say that about a .25 ACP though.
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Welcome aboard doctorknow. I hate it you've got such a tough start here, but you have to admit you've jumped head first into a fairly controversial subject. I tend to agree with the others on here, but I do have a question and some comments on your choice of firearm, not the caliber.
Did you mean to say you shoot mini-mags out of it? I haven't seen a .22 magnum P22.
As to the Walther, I'm glad you've got one that shoots reliable enough to trust it with your life. I'm apparently somewhere between you and Timothy. I like my P22 and enjoy shooting it. However, I have to run cci mini-mags to get any kind of reliability out of it, and, even then, it's not the 100% I require to carry it for self defense. I have carried it before, but I also started shooting it more during that time. That's when I really realized how unreliable it is for me even with quality ammo. May I suggest, if you insist on carrying a .22, looking into a revolver? They are much more reliable in the .22 platform than autos and capacity is similar these days.
Again, welcome and glad to see you're out there promoting your right to self-defense.
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Welcome aboard doctorknow. I hate it you've got such a tough start here, but you have to admit you've jumped head first into a fairly controversial subject. I tend to agree with the others on here, but I do have a question and some comments on your choice of firearm, not the caliber.
Did you mean to say you shoot mini-mags out of it? I haven't seen a .22 magnum P22.
As to the Walther, I'm glad you've got one that shoots reliable enough to trust it with your life. I'm apparently somewhere between you and Timothy. I like my P22 and enjoy shooting it. However, I have to run cci mini-mags to get any kind of reliability out of it, and, even then, it's not the 100% I require to carry it for self defense. I have carried it before, but I also started shooting it more during that time. That's when I really realized how unreliable it is for me even with quality ammo. May I suggest, if you insist on carrying a .22, looking into a revolver? They are much more reliable in the .22 platform than autos and capacity is similar these days.
Again, welcome and glad to see you're out there promoting your right to self-defense.
Don't feel sorry for him, remember, "No guts, No glory" ! ;D
And since I missed it earlier Welcome aboard Doctorknow .
He may have concealment issues to deal with as well that would not be helped by the cylinder on a revolver.
After hearing the comments on here I would advise the good Doctor to make absolutely certain that his pistol functions 100%
If you need it you really REALLY need BANG, not click regardless of caliber.
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Speaking of click vs bang...
This past spring, I was teaching a few newbies the basics with my BIL's little S&W .22 revolver. It too was a bit sensitive to cheap ammo. I had some Remington Thunderbolt that I'd bought last year and had nothing but problems out of that S&W with it. Nearly every cylinder I shot, 4 of 8 were misfires. Don't assume with .22 rimfire, every revolver will function, every time.
I gave what I had left to a guy with a Ruger Mk II at the range and he blew right through it with no problems. The Federal bulk box from WW was no problem at all in the revo...
Check your ammo regardless of the tool you're using!
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Speaking of click vs bang...
This past spring, I was teaching a few newbies the basics with my BIL's little S&W .22 revolver. It too was a bit sensitive to cheap ammo. I had some Remington Thunderbolt that I'd bought last year and had nothing but problems out of that S&W with it. Nearly every cylinder I shot, 4 of 8 were misfires. Don't assume with .22 rimfire, every revolver will function, every time.
I gave what I had left to a guy with a Ruger Mk II at the range and he blew right through it with no problems. The Federal bulk box from WW was no problem at all in the revo...
Check your ammo regardless of the tool you're using!
I agree, and that's one of the biggest downfalls to .22lr. I guess I should clarify what I mean by revolvers are more reliable. They don't have feeding/ejecting problems, and a "click" doesn't stop you from pulling the trigger until you get a "bang."
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I agree, and that's one of the biggest downfalls to .22lr. I guess I should clarify what I mean by revolvers are more reliable. They don't have feeding/ejecting problems, and a "click" doesn't stop you from pulling the trigger until you get a "bang."
I wasn't trying to be critical MKM but more to emphasize your point that nothing is 100%, ever! I never like hang fires in any situation but it was a good teaching moment for my newbies.
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I've been shooting like the doc since 8. Shot on rifle teams, shot all kinds of long and handguns. 35 years ago I was partial to the 9 mm or a 1911 in .45ACP.
I was disabled 35 years ago, and can use only arm. There went the pistols, sold them. Started shooting .22 revolvers again 12 years ago. Even when I had shot 35 years ago my .22 rifle it hated Winchester, I could count on a 17% misfire out of a brick. Went to Remington, it was 10%.
Years later my .22 revolvers hate the same ammo, but love CCI. So the ammo problem is settled.
And I love to use a pistol, but can't rack the slide, oh I can but it would be frowned upon at the range.
Having a small hand, the larger caliber revolvers are not for me. So I use the .22. It's better than nothing, the .25ACP isn't that much bigger. Hang Tight Doc and welcome
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I wasn't trying to be critical MKM but more to emphasize your point that nothing is 100%, ever! I never like hang fires in any situation but it was a good teaching moment for my newbies.
Didn't think anything about it just wanted to clarify what I meant about reliable in case there was confusion to other readers. Oddly, I somehow missed the second half of Tom's post which started the click/bang train of thought.
Back to the choice of .22 as a defensive carry round.
I think most of us here have no problem saying "A .22lr that you carry is better than something larger that you don't." However, I think most of us would also recommend carrying something larger and centerfire if you're capable. A lot of factors go into chosing a defensive carry gun, and ability to shoot it well should be a priority.
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I wonder how many people shot with a large caliber never make it to the hospital? It seems to me that the few ER doctors I've heard comment about the caliber debate have based their opinions on how many patients they have seen in the ER as opposed to the total number of people shot which would be those that they see PLUS those that only the corner sees. It would seem to me that a corner would be a better judge of caliber performance on humans than an ER doctor, just my $.02 and a little fuel to the never ending caliber debate.
Just so everyone is clear I am of the opinion that the bigger the better, or carry what you can get away with. My XDM in 45 ACP serves as my EDC, competition gun and home defense handgun because its the only handgun I currently own (soon to be rectified with multiple purchases-thanks to BHO) and I have put over 1500 rounds through it this year. I hope to put another 4000 by years end in competition, practice or training.
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People like Papabear are why you can't just say, "don't carry a 22".
My Dads in the same boat, arthritis and other problems mean he can't work a slide and makes the recoil of his Mod 27 very painful, so he carries a 22Mag Ruger single six . It would be near the bottom of the list of my choices, but it's much better than not carrying anything..
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It all boils down to the same basic tenet that is preached so much by so many trainers....because it is true: carry the biggest caliber that you are able to shoot reliably well.
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Oh hell,
Get a real mans gun or stay home cowering under your covers
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/6884/guncrafter-industries-50-gi-conversion-kit-3/
1911 or Glock ;D
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Ok- let's see, a .22 aren't a real man's gun? The Mafia used them for a lot of contract killings, so did the Israelis Secret Service in assassinations. Hope that you aren't calling them not real men.
Any gun is a tool, you use the right tool for the job. If you have only one tool, use it as best as you can. A poor shot with a .45 vs. a good shot with a .22 is in deep trouble.
Personally I'd love to use a Colt Peacemaker or Diamond Back, 1911, but physically I can't handle that large a caliber. I use what I have with the greatest skill that I can employ.
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I use what I have with the greatest skill that I can employ.
In the end, that's all any of us can do. Skill can make up for a lot.
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Ok- let's see, a .22 aren't a real man's gun? The Mafia used them for a lot of contract killings, so did the Israelis Secret Service in assassinations. Hope that you aren't calling them not real men.
Any gun is a tool, you use the right tool for the job. If you have only one tool, use it as best as you can. A poor shot with a .45 vs. a good shot with a .22 is in deep trouble.
Personally I'd love to use a Colt Peacemaker or Diamond Back, 1911, but physically I can't handle that large a caliber. I use what I have with the greatest skill that I can employ.
Papabear, read the link and you will understand it was a wise ass comment.
I happen to think .22's are great for many reasons and were I in the same boat as you and my Dad I would probably carry one rather than go with out, it is just way down on my list of preferences.
Given a choice between a .22 and a .25acp I would take the .22 every time.
But compared to a .50 cal concealed carry pistol it's a sissy gun.
Of course there is also this.
Now THAT'S a pistol ! ;D
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You forgot the towed 105mm or the German 88, now that's a gun! No CC permit for it though, open carry, wait the Ma Deuce would be ideal. I loved the nuke though that you posted. Just a slight delay as one of the Birdman arms guys said.
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I am reminded of a tragic local story where a teenage girl was shot in the back with a .22 pistol, at a school here in S. Florida in 2008. It was a senseless act over gossip and nonsense.
The girl took a single shot to the back at point blank range. The shooter was another teenage girl.
The girl that was shot, quietly walked down the hall and minutes later, awaiting EMS, and still alert, and not showing signs of trauma,.....she eventually collapsed with no visible signs of being shot in the hallway. She wasn't even bleeding.
The only fly in the ointment I perceive, ballistic's wise, is the SD capabilities of stopping a threat. Yes, head shots work with any caliber, .....however, in a Critical Dynamic Incident, (As Rob Pincus calls it), I need the threat to go down, and go down right the (insert expletive) right now. I can't afford to have a BG remain mobile and a potential threat as he bleeds out some minutes or hours later.
Yes the .22 works, if it's what you want to carry. I would at least bump it up to the .22 Magnum.
Link to story...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450758,00.html
Snip
The discovery of the body started a confusing series of events. Police said they did not believe anyone heard gunshots, and an initial examination found no major wound on the girl's body, leading to questions about whether or not she was shot.
Authorities later confirmed the shooting and Sousa said it was possible a smaller-caliber gun was used and the wound closed around the bullet.
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Big bullets lead to big holes. If you are capable and confident with a .22, by all means....Continue. It is effective. No Doubt.
Timing is everything....
Welcome to the doc, and Papabear. We need to post the vid of the double-arm amputee shooting a semi-auto with his feet from the hood of a car. He was racking, loading mags, and totally effective with his feet...
It's here in the archives already if someone has it.
All The Best,
tw
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You forgot the towed 105mm or the German 88, now that's a gun! No CC permit for it though, open carry, wait the Ma Deuce would be ideal. I loved the nuke though that you posted. Just a slight delay as one of the Birdman arms guys said.
These are guns I believe should be registered.
If it has a trailer hitch, it needs to have a trailer plate. ;D
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These are guns I believe should be registered.
If it has a trailer hitch, it needs to have a trailer plate. ;D
A few years ago when I joined my local range they told the story of a fella who joined the year before. He got his card, key and membership package and that weekend, towed in a small cannon.
They never let him light one off. They refunded his dues and sent him on his way... ;D
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I AM NO ROCKET SCIENTIST, BUY I THINK I'M SMARTER THAN THE AVERAGE BEAR. SO FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN
& READ ON THE MAJORITY OF THSES FORUMS, IT IS ALL ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT & PRACTICE WITH WHATEVER
FIREARM YOU HAVE. IF THE .22 IS IT, PRACTICE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE!! :)
HOWEVER, IF YOU GO INTO BEAR COUNTRY, YOU SHOULD HAVE A MINIMUM .357 MAG OR 20 GA SLUGS. :)