The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on August 14, 2012, 01:52:07 PM
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-russian-nuclear-attack-sub-patrolled-waters-off-gulf-for-a-month-undetected/
Report: Russian Nuclear Attack Sub Patrolled Waters Off Gulf for a Month…Undetected
A Russian, nuclear-powered attack sub patrolled the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, off the U.S. coast, undetected for a month, a new startling report from the Washington Free Beacon says.
The sub, the Free Beacon says, is an Akula vessel loaded with cruise missiles and is one of the quietest in the Russian fleet.
From the report:
The stealth underwater incursion in the Gulf took place at the same time Russian strategic bombers made incursions into restricted U.S. airspace near Alaska and California in June and July, and highlights a growing military assertiveness by Moscow.
The submarine patrol also exposed what U.S. officials said were deficiencies in U.S. anti-submarine warfare capabilities—forces that are facing cuts under the Obama administration’s plan to reduce defense spending by $487 billion over the next 10 years.
The Navy is in charge of detecting submarines, especially those that sail near U.S. nuclear missile submarines, and uses undersea sensors and satellites to locate and track them.
The fact that the Akula was not detected in the Gulf is cause for concern, U.S. officials said.
“The Akula was built for one reason and one reason only: To kill U.S. Navy ballistic missile submarines and their crews,” said a second U.S. official.
“It’s a very stealthy boat so it can sneak around and avoid detection and hope to get past any protective screen a boomer might have in place,” the official said, referring to the Navy nickname for strategic missile submarines.
If confirmed, this isn’t the first time the Russians have made such a bold move recently. In 2009, the New York Times reported two other nuclear-powered attack subs were found to have patrolled the eastern seaboard, about 200 miles off the coast.
“It’s a confounding situation arising from a lack of leadership in our dealings with Moscow,” Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) told the Free Beacon. “While the president is touting our supposed ‘reset’ in relations with Russia, Vladimir Putin is actively working against American interests, whether it’s in Syria or here in our own backyard.”
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Well, I'm a bit confused.
If we didn't know it was there, how do we know we missed finding it?
I guess the Russians might do a few Nyah Nyah's .
And if any of the brass in the Navy have any sense, they'd be saying just what was in that report even if they picked the sub up in Russian waters and tracked it the whole way here and back home.
Of course it would be a nice touch if, when it gets to dry dock, they find a "Kilroy Was Here" painted on the hull ;D ;D
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Timothy doesn't like this and can't really get into any details. Though the missions I've been involved in are now unclassified, the assets are not. It's already become a topic of conversation (unclassified) on my alumni forum.
Even though we've been told otherwise, the Cold War never ended!
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Of course it would be a nice touch if, when it gets to dry dock, they find a "Kilroy Was Here" painted on the hull ;D ;D
Yeah, if we did track it we wouldn't want to admit it so that the other guy becomes, "cocky". Play your cards close.
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We didn't even get a ping?..... ???
"One Ping Only Please"....... ::)
Hell, the Russians probably leaked it intentionally to get the Nyah, Nyah effect....
They went around S. of Cuba, or hugged the Northern coast and cruised around for a while,......We have been playing sub games with the Russians for decades....
I'm sure we've had periscope views of their coastal cities....
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We didn't even get a ping?..... ???
"One Ping Only Please"....... ::)
Hell, the Russians probably leaked it intentionally to get the Nyah, Nyah effect....
They went around S. of Cuba, or hugged the Northern coast and cruised around for a while,......We have been playing sub games with the Russians for decades....
I'm sure we've had periscope views of their coastal cities....
You make a valid observation TW. Coastal waters are very shallow and sound propagation is greatly muddled up due to the amount of noise that is generated by waves, surf, other coastal traffic, a good storm, etc. A good captain could sneak into the gulf without too much effort. Keep it silent, slow without cavitation on the blades and you'd be surprised where they can go.
Pinging, aka "active sonar", isn't used much by other submarines. If you're tracking another boat and you send out a ping, it gives the enemy a direct path back to the source.
I am completely surprised that this boat could leave Polyarny, through the GIUK (Greenland-Iceland-UK) gap and travel the entire Atlantic without being detected. Someone in the system is going to be working over time going through the history to find this prick...
Even closer....how 'bout Mermansk harbor...upclose and personal!
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I recall a story of a SEAL team placing a listening device on a telecom cable that ran on a harbour's bottom back in the 80's (90's ?)
We know it happens, they know it happens and we all shut up about it, I think this is a case of Putin Propoganda-even if it is true.
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It's true Magoo...
Blame it on the cutbacks from the Clinton admin, little or no threat for nearly twenty years and little funding to bring the "system" up to modern standards and this is the result. You can only do some much with a disinterested admin! Give us four more years with the current crop and Putin will be driving a boat right into Norfolk Naval Shipyard!
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Since my information comes from gossip and open sources I can say a few things Tim can't.
The wire tap program was called "Operation Ivy Bells" divers placed a pod on an underwater cable running across the Sea of Okhotsk it was a wire tap and was changed several times, eventually the mission was compromised and resulted in a massive Soviet sub hunt that resulted in a collision between a Soviet sub and the US sub. the US sub however was never precisely located and managed to return to it's home port.
That was in the North Pacific. I have heard from a participant that similar operations were performed in the Barents Sea.
Photos were taken not "off the coast" but right in Murmansk harbor .
The Akula class are indeed the quietest nuke boat the Russians ever built, they are not however "silent", American subs have tracked them for extended periods (weeks ) close enough to take a photo (called a "hull shot" ) with out themselves being detected.
They sonar signatures recorded during an extended contact like that are programed into computers, the next time that sound signature is heard on a US sonar it is automatically designated as a possible Akula further listening will eventually identify WHICH Akula telling the operator who is probably in command as well as pretty much every other detail about the boat.
Just because no one told the media does not mean it was undetected.
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Tom has a good point on detection.
Though this boat appears to have slipped into the Gulf, no one in the system would have informed the media about it's presence. Their responsibilities are to inform their superiors who then inform the Commander of the Atlantic Fleet who then informs the Pentagon and eventually, the guy drinking beer in the Oval Office.
There are severe consequences when you forget you have a very high government clearance. I've been out 33 years and there are things that I will not talk about even though I'm under no legal obligation to keep my pie hole shut!
There may well have been a US boat in this guys baffles the whole time!
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A mentor of mine worked on water jet cutting systems up in the Seattle area and told me about a tracking system that used satellite photos/video and water displacement to visually track subs back in the 80s. So it is hard for me to believe that no one knew they were here. Granted they may have known and are just keeping their mouths shut,as mentioned before, which I think is much more likely than a Rusky sub going unnoticed into our costal waters.
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AS bad as this Russia want's no part of our problems under obama and crew they just watch and laugh at the idiot in charge Vote him out :'( :-X
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While we're on the subject..
What do we think will happen to the oil platforms in the Gulf if we get crossed up with China, or anybody else with a sub, for that matter?..
Been an irritant of mine for years.. Probably the first time I've mentioned it..
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While we're on the subject..
What do we think will happen to the oil platforms in the Gulf if we get crossed up with China, or anybody else with a sub, for that matter?..
Been an irritant of mine for years.. Probably the first time I've mentioned it..
SH...we're making an assumption that this Ivan made it into the gulf without detection. I have first hand knowledge of the capabilities of our oceanographic resources in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. The detection of submarine activity in our worlds oceans was my life for my time in the military.
The more I think of this, the more I believe that this sub was not alone. If this boat captain had done anything untoward regarding our oil resources, I have little doubt that he'd never be heard from again. The Gulf, at it's deepest point is in excess of 13,000 feet! The average depth is 1300 meters. You can hide a great deal of wreckage in that depth and no one would be the wiser. The Soviets knew in the 70's that they couldn't leave Murmansk or Petropovlosk without us knowing! Nothing recently has changed my opinion on that...
The Chinese are building diesel boats! On battery, they're what we sonar geeks call a "black hole"! When submerged on battery power, they're slow (less than 5-10 knots) but virtually undetectable. They are a far greater threat to the coast on the Pacific but they'd have a long, long trip to round Cape Horn or come from the east past Capetown. Either way, they have to charge their batteries and when they do, they make a great deal of noise.
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What Tim says about diesel boats however they are limited by how much fuel they can carry.
That's why the German U Boats in American harbors and along our coasts were not more effective.
For a surprisingly good comparison of diesel versus nuke capabilities watch the Kelsey Grammar movie "Down Periscope".
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Refueling boats can be disguised as anything. A few years ago, a Chinese diesel boat popped up in the middle of the USS Kitty Hawk battle group, a long ways from the Asian continent. Toms point is valid in that it would be very difficult for a diesel boat to travel that far but, all of our WWII boats were diesels and they performed admirably in the Pacific campaigns.
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Subs might not have to make noise or even move to be detected.
Not sure how magnetometers have been developed lately, but is seemed promising some time ago.
Don't know if enough of a modern sub can be made of non-ferrous material to avoid detection using that method either.
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Magnetometer is one of the sensors used for airborne sub hunting.
Satellites are capable of photographing submerged boats at 300 ft or more.
Refueling is the weak point for diesel boats. The U Boat force had it's back broken by "Hunter Killer" groups that usually consisted of a "Jeep" or "Escort" carrier, about 1/3 the size of a Fleet carrier carrying about one squadron, accompanied by a small escort group of destroyers, and maybe a Light Cruiser configured for anti submarine warfare.
The basic concept was to send the group to an area based on intercepted German radio messages then conduct an air search the aircraft would locate the sub, and it's supply ship then attack while also directing surface units to the exact location.
With today's technologies of satellites and long endurance drones the job gets even easier.
Where the diesels really shine is in shallower, more confined coastal waters where endurance is less of an issue, for example the Chinese boats would be perfect for interdicting Taiwan, and the Iranian boats are exactly what would be needed for shutting the Gulf of Hormuz and operating in the Arabian sea.
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My $.02 this artical is bs. could a sub sneak in to the gulf? Yes, could it sneak all the way there with out be detected? not likly. I did many a sub escort in my time in the coasties, even the smallest of subs are huge the missle subs are just down right scarry big.
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I would think one cold build a "mother" ship which could hide the sub inside. Then the sub could be transported close to it's target area and released, batteries fully charged, full load of diesel. A lot of subterfuge would have to be made about the mother ship, disguised as say a container ship, but if I where China it might be worth a shot. Even if it didn't work well, it's worth the diversion of US assets.
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A diesel boat could also shadow another surface ship closely enough to completely blank out it's sound signature. A surface vessels sound signature is all fuzzy and distorted. A submerged sub in deeper water is "clean" for lack of a better term. They just light up the diesels and snorkel along at 60 ft or so... At night they can run full ahead and they look just like any other pig boat! (surface ship = pig boat)
It's not easy but it's plausible. Again, as Tom mentions, fuel is the problem.
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Magnetometer is one of the sensors used for airborne sub hunting.
Satellites are capable of photographing submerged boats at 300 ft or more.
P-8A no longer has a MAD boom, and can't go as low and slow as a P-3. Airborne MAD detection really wasn't all that effective, bouys found and tracked most boats once other systems directed the planes to a search grid.
The Paki boat my crew found was Mark 1 Eyeball. It was making a training run on a merchant we were rigging and went "Hey what's that?" We took a few pictures and passed the location to the slick S-3B for them to follow. Within 10 minutes of them going on station they lost it. Now the carriers no longer have a fixed wing airborne ASW platform. Big Navy has all but forgotten how to track subs in open water, we're to focused on IEDs and fighting in caves.
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Big Navy has all but forgotten how to track subs in open water, we're to focused on IEDs and fighting in caves.
I know about 1000 ex-SOSUS guys and gals that will happily volunteer to man the stations...most are now retired and living on a government check anyway! Most, if not all of the old stations are now gone but all the stuff is still there.
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P-8A no longer has a MAD boom, and can't go as low and slow as a P-3. Airborne MAD detection really wasn't all that effective, bouys found and tracked most boats once other systems directed the planes to a search grid.
The Paki boat my crew found was Mark 1 Eyeball. It was making a training run on a merchant we were rigging and went "Hey what's that?" We took a few pictures and passed the location to the slick S-3B for them to follow. Within 10 minutes of them going on station they lost it. Now the carriers no longer have a fixed wing airborne ASW platform. Big Navy has all but forgotten how to track subs in open water, we're to focused on IEDs and fighting in caves.
Typical, the "management" always put to much emphasis on the last war instead of thinking ahead toward what they will do when the Iranians sink a carrier.