The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Timothy on August 25, 2012, 01:24:50 PM
-
Sixteen rounds expended and 10 confirmed hits! Too bad 9 of them were innocent bystanders....
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/
Oh! Yea! It's NYC, who gives a sh!t!
-
Last training I took on this type of situation showed stats that law enforcement only hit 20% of the time, so it appears NYPD are improving and raising the bar. Wait a minute, that 20% was hitting their target. Sure hope innocent bystanders were not their targets! One on target and 15 misses = 6.25% on target.
-
Crazy it's a small world moment. The shooting victim (the guy the bad guy shot) was a friend of my former roommate's cousin.
Sad that this event happened. Even sadder that most of the victims were from the police.
-
Here's the video of the "shootout."
Doesn't the NYPD require a 12# DAO trigger on their guns?
I bet the cop on the left - the one within spitting distance and using a two-handed grip - had a much higher success rate that the cop on the right - retreating and firing with a one-handed grip.
I think many of the injuries were from ricochets and shrapnel.
Oh, and the bad guy never got a shot off.
-
There were ten hits on the perp if I remember. Those are pretty good hit percentages, is that 120 or 125%?
-
I don't think he was hit ten times. From what I have read he had ten "gunshot wounds" and that some of them were "where the bullet exited." It might be a while before we find out how many rounds actually found their intended target.
-
sounds like the oakland pd.... Awhile back ( 5+ years ago) there was a shoot out envoling 3 cops and a black teen. Just under 60 rounds fired. 2 pistols and an ar. The guy empty the ar reloaded, shot some more. One of the pistols was emptyed twice. The last gun was fired twice. The kid was hit in the arm and ankle for a total of 2 hits... Guess which officer had the hits? yep the guy that fired twice lol
-
Ought to make them untrained assholes go back to Cap and Ball revolvers.
6 shots and no practical reload, better make them count.
It isn't really the cops fault that their training budget got used for some PC Muslim out reach program, or a vocational program to teach Spanish to Albanian hookers, or funding Bloomburg's new "Soda Police".
-
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/26/us/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/26/us/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)
-The man killed by a former co-worker on a Manhattan sidewalk Friday was shot five times in the head, the New York Medical Examiner's office said Sunday.
-Ercolino died from head wounds, but he also suffered "a graze wound to the chest, but nothing that would have killed him," said Ellen Borakove, the medical examiner's spokeswoman.
-Johnson, who served in the U.S. Coast Guard in the mid-1970s, had two rounds left in his pistol. It holds eight, New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said Saturday.
-Johnson died from nine gunshot wounds in his chest, the medical examiner's office said. Three bullets were recovered from his body, while another four bullets exited his body, the medical examiner said. No explanation was given for two apparently unaccounted for bullets.
-Nine pedestrians suffered bullet or fragment wounds in the hail of gunfire, all from shots fired by police, Kelly said. Three passers-by sustained direct gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments, Kelly said.
-One officer shot nine rounds and the other shot seven.
-
I would bet allthe perp hits came from one cop.
-
-The man killed by a former co-worker on a Manhattan sidewalk Friday was shot five times in the head, the New York Medical Examiner's office said Sunday.
That certainly makes a statement. Kinda strong for "Go away, I don't like you", but different people express themselves in different ways.
-
I read a statistic recently, not verified, that a lone police officer has about a 50% hit rate.
When more than one officer is involved in the shooting the combined rate drops down into the low 20's.
(as I recall the numbers were close to that- I read the statistic in an email from Tim Schmidt of USCCA)
-
There were ten hits on the perp if I remember. Those are pretty good hit percentages, is that 120 or 125%?
??? ::) ???
This isn't voting in NYC this is shots fired, of which only 100% count. And 10 out of 16 is only 62.5% and not all on the bad guy as stated before.
-
What are the rules of engagement in a situation like this? How much collateral damage does law enforcement consider acceptable? Although no-one will know, it appears to me this was suicide by cop and the cops obliged. We could have had nine inocent citizen fatalities. Yes they were just wounded, but that is not by anything but random luck. Rolling the dice as those cops did could have easily resulted in 9 fatalities not including the bad guy.
I would think that in big cities this situation would be a fairly common occurrence. Aren't police trained to hold their fire until they have a clear shot? It it had been a legal CC citizen in that situation and he had shot collaterally nine people, what would be the outcry? What charges would he be facing?
-
Another possible scenario (other than suicide) is that the perp was just going to hand over the gun and surrender.
Not that the cops would know that, nor would I want to have to make a split second decision myself.
-
It seems to me that the split second decision to be made was "I can't shoot, I'll hit innocent civilians".
-
It seems to me that the split second decision to be made was "I can't shoot, I'll hit innocent civilians".
I'm sure we all have realized that should be become involved in a self defense gun fight that one advantage the bad guy has is that he will not be at all concerned about hitting bystanders because he doesn't intend to or expect to be facing the consequences for that.
Unfortunately it is often the case where the police do not expect to be facing severe consequences for accidentally shooting bystanders. Way to many times we have seen the police face very small consequences for intentionally shooting an innocent suspect.
The statistic I posted earlier might show that a single officer involved in a gun fight is focused on the job at hand...surviving the fight and taking out the bad guy.
When more than one officer is involved, it seems it might be devolving into a pigeon shoot.
-
I believe that the only reasonable decision is to not shoot when in that situation. It has nothing to do with percentages. The decision is only, shoot or not shoot. We have come to expect policemen to be lousy shots, that is a given. Consequently they can only discharge their weapons when innocents are not in the line of fire no matter the danger to themselves. Since when do policemen get to sacrifice innocent civilians, women or children, to save their own butt?
-
Now just to lay out the flip side of this:
The responding officers, at best, knew the perp had shot and killed someone. They had no way of knowing it was a targeted shooting and for all they knew, he was about to start shooting more people, not just at them. What may have been in the balance is how many people will he kill before he's stopped him later verses how many will we hit if we fire immediately.
Maybe they did or didn't go through that thought process, but they took the later course. 9 innocents were injured, but we'll never know how many lives they might have saved.
Not taking sides, just presenting another view.
-
The operative words in that flip side senario are " They had no way of knowing....". What they did know is that when you discharge your weapon in a crowd the chances are extremely good that you will hit innocents maybe kill them. As much as people would like to make excuses for these policemen, they were wrong. NYPD will probably give them a medal though just to make it look good. I believe they were just trying to save their own butts and damn the civilians.
-
Now just to lay out the flip side of this:
The responding officers, at best, knew the perp had shot and killed someone. They had no way of knowing it was a targeted shooting and for all they knew, he was about to start shooting more people, not just at them. What may have been in the balance is how many people will he kill before he's stopped him later verses how many will we hit if we fire immediately.
Maybe they did or didn't go through that thought process, but they took the later course. 9 innocents were injured, but we'll never know how many lives they might have saved.
Not taking sides, just presenting another view.
We know exactly how many lives were saved.
News reports say he only had 2 rounds left so the public would have been safer if the cops had just ducked and let him do as he pleased.
The things to remember in this case are that the AVERAGE level of fire arms training in large departments sucks.
NYC has something like 35,000 cops, they produced one Jim Cirrillo in 150 years of carrying guns.
The average armed citizen has some level of interest in shooting to begin with and uses his/her own money to gain some level of proficiency. The average armed citizen is focused on not having their life destroyed by injury, criminal charges, or civil suits.
The average big city cop on the other hand is more interested in his pension than in gun skills and does not worry over much since they have the PBA to shield them from most of the consequences a civilian would face.
You will see an increase in this sort of incident as political appointees continue to promote lower hiring standards in favor of "ethnic diversity, and continue to raid training funds to pay for cronyism and politically motivated worthless programs.
-
At least they don't get paid to shoot people like they do in Albuquerque. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/payments-to-albuquerque-officers-involved-in-shootings-called-bounty-system.html?pagewanted=all Or do they?
-
I think Bloomberg needs to resign, not because of this incident just because he's a pompous ass ;D
-
Here's a real test of what gun, what trigger, and what the results are with a mandated 12 lb. DAO (only) Sig or Glock.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/
12 lbs. !!!!!!!!!
One of my friends is a NYPD police officer, and when he comes to shooting competitions he always uses his duty gear. I think that’s fantastic and more police officers should do likewise, but it always puts him at a disadvantage compared to other shooters. And the reason for that is the NYPD’s requirement for a 12 pound trigger pull weight.
NYPD cops are given a choice. They can have a SIG P226, a Glock 19, or a Smith & Wesson wheelgun. But no matter what they choose, the triggers are modified to have a 12 pound pull for every shot fired.
So even with the P226, which was designed to be double action for the first round and single action for every round thereafter, the NYPD requires it to operate in “double action ONLY” mode. Not only that, they raise the trigger pull weight from the designed pull of 10 pounds to 12 pounds. Its the same story for the Glock. What used to be a factory-issue 5.5 pounds of pressure required to trip the trigger becomes a 12 pound monstrosity.
As anyone who has fired a double action handgun knows IMMEDIATELY once they touch that round off, getting an accurate shot with a heavy trigger is significantly more difficult than with a lighter one.
To illustrate this point, I went out to the local range to do some testing.
*****
Pics and more info at link.
12 lbs....!!!!!!
Not enough training.....
-
You know, I've been aware of the NY Trigger from working with my Glocks for several years.
I always thought it was stupid, but never put it into this type of term.
New York City has requirements that force it's police to be significantly less accurate with their hand guns thus endangering themselves and citizen bystanders while making the criminal harder to hit.
-
New York City has requirements that force it's police to be significantly less accurate with their hand guns thus endangering themselves and citizen bystanders while making the criminal harder to hit.
All because of Negligent Discharges during Administrative gun handling that resulted in cops shooting themselves, furniture or others. Too bad training cost so much ::)
If you are a LEO and your department doesn't afford you the opportunity to train with your sidearm (it appears in the article TW posted that you wouldn't do it on your own anyway) it is part of your duty, your responsibility to ensure public safety by being proficient with your firearms.
I am reminded of a story told on here some where were at an annual qualification an officers firearm malfunctioned and it was traced back to activities from the previous years qualification (IIRC he didn't load his revolver after qualifying). :o
-
It is irrelevant. Even if they had to light a fuse to fire their weapon the error is in shooting at all when innocents are in the line of fire. It is a problem of protecting their own butt at the expense of the citizens. They fired because they were afraid.
-
Well we now have verification that law enforcement in our fair Twin Cities can hit "A" target. A hostage situation in a local hotel, a hostage is sent into the hallway, and the cops kill him.
Sounds like my warning to hostages when I describe my USPSA abilities when No Shoots are present.
-
Got a link ?
I'm going to want the reference the next time some one tells me how the Cops are so highly trained .
Follow up would be good too.
Bet they don't go through the crap George Zimmerman is experiencing.
-
http://www.startribune.com/local/east/168131816.html (http://www.startribune.com/local/east/168131816.html)
Star Tribune has multiple stories on this now. Typical of a lot of this it changes constantly, but once they admitted he was a hostage nothing has changed considering his be unarmed and fleeing the room.