The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on September 02, 2012, 11:19:51 PM
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of examples as to why we have on going problems in this nation:
http://mankatofreepress.com/local/x2039226067/Details-on-year-old-double-fatal-released (http://mankatofreepress.com/local/x2039226067/Details-on-year-old-double-fatal-released)
MANKATO — A crash on Highway 14 that killed two motorcyclists and severely injured two other men more than a year ago was caused by a teenager who veered into oncoming traffic after falling asleep behind the wheel, according to State Patrol reports that were released last week.
“The highway is a problem; there is no question about it,” he said. “There’s not much room for mistakes.”
Seventeen year old kid working in his family's business is driving a commercial vehicle on the job, falls a sleep after shorting himself of rest, crosses the center line, kills two cyclists, and he gets off with a misdemeanor. Note the quote by the State Trooper from the article concerning it being the highway's fault. The damn kid screwed up, he killed two men and severely injured two others!
Personal responsibility boys and girls! And if you aren't going to take personal responsibility somebody is going to mess with your health, or the nanny state will mess with all of us, or both.
I ride my bike upwards of 500 miles a week. A mixture of rural and urban highways exposes me to a lot of good and a lot of idiot drivers. I have become a lot less passive this year. When you cut me off I will let you know very clearly that you did wrong. If I am passing you and see you texting (illegal in Minnesota) or reading I will express my displeasure.
Some have told me I go a little far, but I have decided it is time that for those of us put at risk to voice our opinions. I am willing to discuss it. If you don't believe it you can ask Mr. BMW convertible who took issue with my horn when we got to the next red light, or the boyfriend or husband who was playing car tag with his female when I let her know she almost put me in the ditch. I am a reasonable kind of guy and am always willing to stop at the next gas station to discuss the issue. I'm such a nice guy I even offered to call 911 when one idiot accused me of road rage ...
I am saddened by the total lack of driving skills and attention to the task at hand that people demonstrate today. When a pilot makes a mistake the lose their job, their license, and often face legal consequences even if nothing happened. When a trucker is involved in an accident their truck is held and fully inspected even if it wasn't their fault. Law enforcement does not do a DOT inspection on the average vehicle accident when we have unbelievable numbers of cars on our roads with bald tires, leaking exhaust, burned out bulbs (do you have any idea what the fine for a trucker if he has even a clearance light burned out in an accident inspection), and fluid leaks.
For those that think a bike is hard to see let me throw a couple facts at you:
I ride a 2006 Honda Goldwing 1800;
When viewed from the front it is a wall 40" wide and 66" high;
Without the trailer the bike is over 7' long;
In the fairing it has the same candlepower as your average car or pickup squeezed into a tighter pattern.
To say "I never saw you" is like the guy who gets hit by a train saying they never saw it coming. If you will admit that this bike and rider is a larger "shadow" next to you than the average car in metro traffic, I will admit that I am much smaller than the pick up I drive on the same roads - You remember that full size 4wd pickup that you also lose in your blind spot and cut off >:(
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtfCRaNg5EU
Situation vented for now :'(
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Right there with you M58. >:( I made my spending money in college working as a moped courier in DC. If I had a dollar for every time I damn near got run over or killed, even when I was obeying evey traffic law and not whitelining, I would be a rich man. If you're breaking the law, you have no grounds to bitch. But if you're playing by the rules? Sorry, but bikes share the road. And if we on bikes obey the rules, so should you in your car. I have little beef with the kid, I'm more pissed at his boss who put him that situation. I mean honestly, a 17 year old driving a commercial truck and pushing to make a delivery without adequate rest time? WTF? ???
But seriously, I got stitches twice because some jackass "didn't see me" even though I was obeying every traffic law. I guess it just goes to prove the old cop joke: "In the event of an accident, the guy with the most lug nuts wins". Its why I drive an F-150 and not a scooter these days. :(
FQ13
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There have studies made about the visibility of motorcycles. The most common excuse when a cyclist is hit is "I never saw him". That appears to be true. Part of the study took place out west investigating accidents at un-garded RR crossings. There are an unusual number of accidents at these crossings, even when the visibility of the tracks is miles in both directions. The conclusion, without going into a lot of detail,that if human beings do not expect to see something there is a good chance they will not see it. In the case of the un-gaurded train crossings, a person makes the crossing time after time and never sees a train. Consequently the one time when a train is coming and they don't expect to see one, they don't. The study however concentrated on motorcycles and they found the same phenomenon. People do not expect to see a motorcycle and because of that they don't see it.
That is good information for a biker to know. They should always ride with the assumption that they are invisible, even lit up like a christmas tree.
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I have about $100K of spare parts installed in my body to remember someone who "just didn't see me!".
I'm right there with you M58 which is why, after 34 years, I don't ride anymore! Inexperienced drivers fail to recognize a motorcycle because they're not looking for one. Their minds are not yet programmed to cognitively seek the unusual and they may see the bike but their minds ignore that information. There is a scientific name for it somewhere.
I've been driving now for 40 years and just about anything with a motor on it since the age of 10. I rode a motorcycle all through HS and beyond and I don't think I've ever missed seeing a motorcycle because my brain is programmed from experience.
Inexperience, ignorance, arrogance, stupidity and then give the dipshit a cellphone, a Big Mac and fries, some make up and send them on their way! Move along, there's no problem here....
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Here in Florida we have an active Watch for Motorcycles program. Bumper stickers hare handed out at the tag offices, at insurance offices, and by mail in some cases. Billboards are everywhere.
The obvious idea is to make 4-wheel drivers more aware that they share the road with some on 2-wheels.
I don't know how well it is working because we still get a lot of fatalities here. We are also a non-mandatory helmet state, so crashes are frequently fatal.
I have been a biker for more than 40 years and I've been nailed by a couple of car drivers who "didn't see me" and by one dog who did, but decided to run under my front wheel, anyway. I am fortunate that I suffered little more than road rash as a result.
In my years of riding, I have found I must be more attentive than those around me. And, as you're taught in self-defense classes, always have a Plan B.
Of course, carrying a pocket full of 1/4" steel ball bearings, and accidentally dropping them out of your pocket at 65 when traveling just in front of the a$$hole who just nearly killed you can work as a useful Plan C if A and B don't work out so well.
I'm not endorsing this sort of retaliation. But, I've heard it works with really troublesome drivers.
Crusader Rabbit
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We have the signage that comes out every spring here as well. Big yellow ones that say "Motorcycles are Everywhere!"...look twice!
I had a head start on defensive driving because my Pop rode Indians and Harley's after WWII and drove a Greyhound bus for about a decade. He was a believer in "watch your ass" cuz no one else will. He taught us fairly well with the bikes and the 4 wheeled vehicles. The State of Michigan once had a fairly good driver education program as well and required a motorcycle license as long as I can remember. I've had mine continuously since 1973.
Helmets are a requirement for me though not in all the states here in the NE. I was wearing mine when I got hit and since the left side of my face is now completely metallic from the eye socket to the upper mandible, there's no doubt I'd be dead without it.
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" Note the quote by the State Trooper from the article concerning it being the highway's fault."
There is actually some truth to what the cop said. It was proven decades ago that long straight highways lead to more "fall asleep" accidents than roads with curves that engage the drivers attention.
The people complaining about drivers not seeing bikes are nothing but thread drift. HE WAS ASLEEP, he would not have seen the bikes if they had 40 foot florescent banners.
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" Note the quote by the State Trooper from the article concerning it being the highway's fault."
There is actually some truth to what the cop said. It was proven decades ago that long straight highways lead to more "fall asleep" accidents than roads with curves that engage the drivers attention.
The people complaining about drivers not seeing bikes are nothing but thread drift. HE WAS ASLEEP, he would not have seen the bikes if they had 40 foot florescent banners.
Tom,
I will not blast you because you do not know the area:
This is a two lane highway with a combination of up and down and slight shifts left and right as it crosses tens of thousands of acres of farm land. It also comes to a town that requires some adjustment in driving about every ten miles.
From Mankato southeast to Rochester of Mayo Clinic fame they have almost completed an upgrade to four lane modern highway, and they are killing people over there too. The people of the region whine about the safety of Hwy 14, but in reality it is drivers doing stupid stuff like passing where there isn't room, passing in no passing, and lots and lots of tailgating.
If you read this article you will see that this kid crossed the center line and killed these two and injured two more, because he shorted himself on rest.
DGF:
I won't dispute your citations on not seeing because they don't expect to see. However, I would like to know if these clowns think they are the only people on the road. As I stated, I also drive a 2005, Chevrolet K1500. This pick up barely fits through a standard garage door, and I deal with nearly as many issues with it as I do the bike. The difference is I have more options for evading with the pick up since it will take to ditches much easier.
The biggest issue I see as I observe and contemplate the situation is that people do not take driving seriously or as a responsibility. They think no more of driving a car than they do turning on the television or computer, and they concentrate about as much. I am not against radios or navigation in cars, but I feel that there should be ZERO cell phone use in cars, no reading of books, magazines or newspapers, and there should be no eating while driving.
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I was watching a Saturday car show some years back where a professional driver (American racer) was test driving a Porsche Carrera on the autobahn in Germany. While he was driving along a stretch at nearly 200 mph (not kph) he mentioned that something was missing in this German made automobile!
Cup holders and an ashtray.... Germany doesn't tolerate using your car like your living room as we Americans do!
My 2011 Focus has 6 cup holders for four occupants and three 12V jacks for the toaster oven and rotisserie broiler I tote along with me...
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M58, I was merely citing information I obtained in a motorcycle safety training class I attended some 200 years ago. I live here in the shadow of Wash DC that was recently cited for having the worst drivers in the US. It is true that along with those that "do not see a motorcycle" are those that really have no business behind the wheel of a car. The Big Mac eaters, the Texters, the Makeup appliers, the Tired and the Drunk. As a biker all you can do is assume that ALL drivers fall into one of those categories, and ride as defensively as you can. Trust no one, and know that as sure as the sun rises that one day one of those schmucks will make you lay your bike down.
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If you read this article you will see that this kid crossed the center line and killed these two and injured two more, because he shorted himself on rest.
That was my point, the "I didn't see them" doesn't apply since he would not have seen a hunter orange 18 wheeler.
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M58, I was merely citing information I obtained in a motorcycle safety training class I attended some 200 years ago. I live here in the shadow of Wash DC that was recently cited for having the worst drivers in the US. It is true that along with those that "do not see a motorcycle" are those that really have no business behind the wheel of a car. The Big Mac eaters, the Texters, the Makeup appliers, the Tired and the Drunk. As a biker all you can do is assume that ALL drivers fall into one of those categories, and ride as defensively as you can. Trust no one, and know that as sure as the sun rises that one day one of those schmucks will make you lay your bike down.
Amen brother. And in the District you need to factor in steel plates to cover up underground work (which get good and slippery with a bit of rain), cable car tracks in Georgetown which like to grab a front wheel, and the foul weather and preoccupied commuters (and this was BEFORE cell phones). Its not if, but when you're going to lay that bike down. I wore a full face helmet on a moped and never once got embarrassed about it. I rode ten hours a day in the summers, with the the rain and I knew what the risks were. I went down three times and my co-workers had gone down more. We all wore brain buckets, and no-one played macho about it. Riding a bike in DC is serious business.
FQ13
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To be fair, thier are alot of idiots on two wheels. that don't fallow the rules. A local city heavily enforces the rules of the road. I always love to drive thru it and see a cop writing a ticket for a guy on a bike. fyi in ca you have ti fallow all of the traffic rules if you are in the street with a bike. Things like stop signs, turn signals, pulling over if you are holding up 3 or mor cars ( big deal on hwy 1)
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To be fair, thier are alot of idiots on two wheels. that don't fallow the rules. A local city heavily enforces the rules of the road. I always love to drive thru it and see a cop writing a ticket for a guy on a bike. fyi in ca you have ti fallow all of the traffic rules if you are in the street with a bike. Things like stop signs, turn signals, pulling over if you are holding up 3 or mor cars ( big deal on hwy 1)
Big deal on any Ca. highway.
My ex Mother in law got a ticket for going to slow on the Nimitz .
She decided to take surface roads coming back from paying the ticket in Oakland.
Got bagged for speeding. ;D
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Very few hwy can you take a bike on. for those that don't know hwy one goes from basicly mexico all the way thru canada to Ak. It fallows the coast line for a most of it. its very twisty, one lane for most of that. its a great drive and I highly recomend it, just not on a bike, or with a stiff clutch. Lol.
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Very few hwy can you take a bike on. for those that don't know hwy one goes from basicly mexico all the way thru canada to Ak. It fallows the coast line for a most of it. its very twisty, one lane for most of that. its a great drive and I highly recomend it, just not on a bike, or with a stiff clutch. Lol.
You do realize we're talking motorcycles, not pedal bikes ?
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I am talking about both.
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M58, I was merely citing information I obtained in a motorcycle safety training class I attended some 200 years ago. I live here in the shadow of Wash DC that was recently cited for having the worst drivers in the US. It is true that along with those that "do not see a motorcycle" are those that really have no business behind the wheel of a car. The soccer moms, the Big Mac eaters, the Texters, the Makeup appliers, the Tired and the Drunk. As a biker all you can do is assume that ALL drivers fall into one of those categories, and ride as defensively as you can. Trust no one, and know that as sure as the sun rises that one day one of those schmucks will make you lay your bike down.
forgot somethin' there... :)
my only means of transportation is a Motorcycle and my two flat feet. I always watch out for the 'tards that can't drive without texting, talking or whatever the heck they do in their cars (picking their noses?) I give myself stopping space and cutoff space for the pricks that just jump in. also like staying out of blind spots... make eye contact if possible. it never fails... people LIKE being stupid.
deepwater
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forgot somethin' there... :)
my only means of transportation is a Motorcycle and my two flat feet. I always watch out for the 'tards that can't drive without texting, talking or whatever the heck they do in their cars (picking their noses?) I give myself stopping space and cutoff space for the pricks that just jump in. also like staying out of blind spots... make eye contact if possible. it never fails... people LIKE being stupid.
deepwater
One of the things I do is watch for eyes in the mirrors. Remember my accident two years ago? I told every officer that he never looked in the mirror. This came back to bite them both, because he had a suspended license and they claimed she was driving. After I gave my statement to both city cops and the couple had been hauled off in the ambulance, one officer came over and asked again about "how did you know he didn't know you were there?". Shortly after the State Trooper showed up and the three had talked one city officer left. As I was talking to the Trooper the other officer called him back. When the Trooper returned he asked me how sure I was that the guy was driving. After telling him 100% and explaining why I knew, he said "that is what will help keep you alive."
People do not use turn signals anymore, but you can learn a lot by watching their body language and watching for their eyes in the mirrors!
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DGF, if you have the worst drivers, I bet they all have Alabama tags and Blue Placards hanging from the mirrors..
I wish all drivers were as conscious of their surroundings as bikers.. Almost never, do I find a biker riding in my blind spot, or not allowing somebody room to get over for traffic entering from an on ramp..
This place (Alabama) has the worst drivers I've ever seen, in this country..
(Okay, maybe Boston.. But they're looking for an insurance claim.. They do it on purpose..)
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From Mankato southeast to Rochester of Mayo Clinic fame they have almost completed an upgrade to four lane modern highway, and they are killing people over there too. The people of the region whine about the safety of Hwy 14, but in reality it is drivers doing stupid stuff like passing where there isn't room, passing in no passing, and lots and lots of tailgating.
I'm originally from Waseca and I will attest to the fact that Hwy 14 is one of the worst stretches of highway for crashes. It seems that there's at least 8 or 10 fatalaties every year on the 12 mile stretch from Owatonna to Waseca alone. Everything you said is 100% spot on and the upgrade to the 4 lanes can't come fast enough.
That said, the kid should not have been driving if he was dozing off. That's just as bad as being drunk.
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I'm originally from Waseca and I will attest to the fact that Hwy 14 is one of the worst stretches of highway for crashes. It seems that there's at least 8 or 10 fatalaties every year on the 12 mile stretch from Owatonna to Waseca alone. Everything you said is 100% spot on and the upgrade to the 4 lanes can't come fast enough.
That said, the kid should not have been driving if he was dozing off. That's just as bad as being drunk.
I would agree except you need to visit Hwy 60 from Mankato to the Iowa border. The main route from Chicago west when they need to stop in the Cities. Our upgrade to four lane was started in 70's. They are working on the ten mile stretch from I90 to the border now, and then they plan to come back and finish the 25 mile stretch from St. James to Windom where it goes four lane, two lane, four lane, two lane. Forty years, and they are telling us it will be another decade providing they don't need to do any major repair to the parts already complete.
Our two lane has actually been rebuilt twice since it was supposed to be four lane.