The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Obiwan on September 06, 2012, 09:51:58 AM
-
Here 'tiz:
Firearms. We recognize that the individual right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we will preserve Americans’ Second Amendment right to own and use firearms. We believe that the right to own firearms is subject to reasonable regulation. We understand the terrible consequences of gun violence; it serves as a reminder that life is fragile, and our time here is limited and precious. We believe in an honest, open national conversation about firearms. We can focus on effective enforcement of existing laws, especially strengthening our background check system, and we can work together to enact commonsense improvements – like reinstating the assault weapons ban and closing the gun show loophole – so that guns do not fall into the hands of those irresponsible, law-breaking few.
-
I will ignore the reference to the fictitious "gun show loophole" that they love to tout as an issue, because it is so blatantly false and needs to be attacked on a basic education level rather than policy debate.
Please note that in the third sentence they refer to "gun violence", however, they never again address violence. How can we best turn this debate from a tool issue to the true violence issue that it is? They can take away tool after tool after tool, but the violence will still be there. Until we change the cultural pattern of turning one group against another through the use of hate we will never break the cycle of violence regardless of which tools we ban.
By the way, if you read the transcripts and writings of our current Pres., and if you listen to his speeches you will learn that he relies on class warfare and hatred to maintain his supporter base. I firmly believe that if a violent event breaks out that is driven by the Occupy groups he will maximize it as proof that there is a battle to be waged.
Attitude and violence is the problem, and not the tool!
-
"We all belong to the Government"
It's never about guns, it's always about control.
-
Same old tired drivel from the left.
They just don't get it.......... criminals will always find a way to obtain guns.... regardless of how many 'bans' or closed 'loopholes' there are in place.....
>:(
-
"We all belong to the Government"
It's never about guns, it's always about control.
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!!!
And anybody that believes that deserves everything they get!
It is our responsibility as citizens to make sure that our elected officials never take us to this point as well!
-
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!!!
And anybody that believes that deserves everything they get!
It is our responsibility as citizens to make sure that our elected officials never take us to this point as well!
I can understand why an American would ignore the whole theme of the Dem convention/
Here's one of the news stories about it.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/nervous-obama-camp-distances-itself-from-video-played-at-dnc-that-says-we-belong-to-govt/
-
Never bought a gun at a gun show, what is the loophole they are talking about?
-
Never bought a gun at a gun show, what is the loophole they are talking about?
They falsely claim that there is a special set of rules and that there are no background checks done at gun shows.
The fact is that the same gun sales and transfer rules and laws are in place at gun shows as any other place a sale or transfer takes place. They also ignore that some gun show promoters actually have stricter rules than federal, state and local laws.
-
There isn't one. even if they made all private sales go thru a dealer. It would not change how crinals get guns anyways. will it stop a few people from getting guns that should not have them? Yeah, until they figure out how to get buy it.
-
Never bought a gun at a gun show, what is the loophole they are talking about?
I probably shouldn't be telling you this but the loophole is this: demonstrate you are a homicidal maniac, and the evil gun shows will give you the fully automatic weapon of your choice for free plus extended clips and thousands of bullets. /sarc off
Actually, many gun shows allow non-dealers to sell weapons. Because that is a private party sale, no background check is required (or even possible). Most of the time the exchange takes place there on the floor of the show. You give the seller the agreed-upon amount and he gives you the gun.
The anti-gun crowd says this is a fine way for evil doers to get their hands on automatic assault rifles that are designed to kill women and children. Just walk into a gun show and buy whatever full auto catches your eye from any one of the hundreds of sellers offering them to convicted felons and other reprobates.
It's just another way the Brady Bunch want to eliminate the private sales of guns.
Hope this helps.
Crusader Rabbit
-
Thank you for the explanation!
-
Since the incident at Aurora, CO and the couple of incidents that have occurred since, I have had an ongoing Facebook debate with a person I know who is an anti-gun person. If he had his way all guns would be confiscated.
I have found it very difficult to keep him on point. He has a circular argument is based on the premise that the saving of even one life is worth trampling the 2nd Amendment.
I have reminded him that nothing in real-life can stand up against that standard. Life, after-all, is dangerous. Practically everything we own can be a cause or contributor to a death. In fact I can't think of anything that, when used improperly, couldn't cause death or serious bodily harm.
Really, you can't win an argument with these people. In the end, we have win elections to try and maintain constructionists on SCOTUS. With recent rulings that isn't much either but it is better than the alternative.
Winning elections is all about the spoils.
-
Crusader,
You did a great job, but you forgot to point out that the non-dealers at tables or walking the floor, or even in the parking lot are free to make those sales and transfers whether at a gun show or not. It happens legally every day. It is not a loop hole as they would want everyone to believe.
-
Since total confiscation and even regulating all private transfers isn't too palatable to the general population, this spurs the gun banners to make up the gun show loop hole.
The firearms laws don't regulate "sales". they regulate "transfers". A very important distinction. You can buy without transferring and you can effect a transfer without buying. Gifts or even LOANS are considered transfers. Think, letting someone shoot your gun at the range as becoming illegal without an FFL to process paperwork and perform background checks.
Having made up the gun show loop hole as a step toward total control, definitions of what constitutes a "gun show" become ominous and starts to infringe on the 1st Amendment. The right to peaceably assemble. I've read some of the proposed legislation. One, IIRC, defined a gun show as ANY meeting between 2 or more people (like you could have a meeting with less than 2!) whether in person or through some medium, with or without firearms present, pre-planned or not, that initiates what ultimately ends with a transfer of a firearms. Then, they put the onus and penalties on the "gun show organizer" who has to register the meeting, file paperwork and insure compliance by all parties. Pretty tough to do at an impromptu encounter.
So if a co-worker casually mentions he always wanted a .357magnum and you say, I have one for sale, that's a gun show. Not only would the transfer have to go through an FFL, but the gun show "organizer" (your boss who wasn't even involved) would be subject to penalties for holding an "illegal" gun show. You think that's crazy? Crazier than declaring washers as silencers?
Scary stuff. That could shut down all gun related forums whether they have "classified" sections or not. Actually some of these proposal would do more harm to firearm ownership than an outright prohibition on private transfers.
-
Crusader,
You did a great job, but you forgot to point out that the non-dealers at tables or walking the floor, or even in the parking lot are free to make those sales and transfers whether at a gun show or not. It happens legally every day. It is not a loop hole as they would want everyone to believe.
Absolutely right. Oversight on my part. Thanks for the clarification.
Crusader
-
The only aspect they might have going is that it is a per-arranged meeting place for personal sellers and buyers.
They might pass a law forbidding private sellers at the gun shows., but then they would have to pass a law forbidding it in the gun show parking lot, and next the parking lot across the street, etc, etc, etc.
Becomes pretty obvious that there is no Gun Show Loophole they want to stop, but private sales altogether.
-
The only aspect they might have going is that it is a per-arranged meeting place for personal sellers and buyers.
They might pass a law forbidding private sellers at the gun shows., but then they would have to pass a law forbidding it in the gun show parking lot, and next the parking lot across the street, etc, etc, etc.
Becomes pretty obvious that there is no Gun Show Loophole they want to stop, but private sales altogether.
Its their answer to the anti-choice crowds focus on late term abortion. They bring up something rare but inflamatory and make people think its the norm, so they can appear reasonable when they say "We just want a few commonsense limits". Of course that's not what they want at all, what they want is their nose under the tent. Screw 'em. The answer is a resounding NO.
FQ13
-
in ny at gun shows all sales (private or dealer)have to go through a NICS check,no parking lot deals,they even set up sting operations in the parking lots to keep people honest.If you meet someone at the show and they call you a week later you would still have to do the NICS check or face prosecution
-
What is really fun about all this is, if they would just come out and say: " we want all gun sales to have to go thru a dealer" there would be enough public support to have a chance of it passing congress.
-
What is really fun about all this is, if they would just come out and say: " we want all gun sales to have to go thru a dealer" there would be enough public support to have a chance of it passing congress.
Don't know if you've noticed but Congress hasn't been paying attention to what the public citizen wants! Most, if not all of what's happening in D.C., has nothing to do with what the citizens!
We can transfer anything between two private citizens here as long as we fill out one piece of transfer paper and mail it to the bureau. ANYONE who owns a gun here MUST have an FID or LTC to own even ammunition so they've already been vetted by the state anyway.
-
In NH all you need for a private transfer is funds to pay for the item.
Me is the same .
Funny thing is we don't have any where near the crime that Ma. has .
-
In NH all you need for a private transfer is funds to pay for the item.
Me is the same .
Funny thing is we don't have any where near the crime that Ma. has .
Come on Tom! It's only a crime if you get caught....you can even leave bodies littering the streets here! No one's going to jail for it and if they do, the taxpayer will buy them a shiny new vagina!
>:( >:(
Gangbangers are exempt from the Firearms Bureau paper work, they're functionally illiterate anyway!
-
In NH all you need for a private transfer is funds to pay for the item.
Me is the same .
Funny thing is we don't have any where near the crime that Ma. has .
Same for GA.
As a side note, I wish the whole state would adopt the stance of Kennesaw, Ga.......and require folks to own guns. If BHO can do it with healthcare, we can do it with firearms.
From a 2007 WND article:
In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of “Wild West” showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.
The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.
Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.
By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city’s crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent.
Today, by comparison, the township’s crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.
This was not what some predicted.
http://www.wnd.com/2007/04/41196/
-
Actually you really could according to the SCOTUS ruling on Obama care. All you'd need to do is set the requirement of gun ownership and then say that if you didn't own one that a special tax would be applied to you to purchase a fire arm for you. Of course, the fire arm would have to be delivered. But according to the Court, it would fall with the tax levying powers of a municipality as it was for a legitimate public good, maintaing public safety . And wouldn't that just piss the antis off? Not a damn thing they could say about it either. ;D
FQ13
-
Actually you really could according to the SCOTUS ruling on Obama care. All you'd need to do is set the requirement of gun ownership and then say that if you didn't own one that a special tax would be applied to you to purchase a fire arm for you. Of course, the fire arm would have to be delivered. But according to the Court, it would fall with the tax levying powers of a municipality as it was for a legitimate public good, maintaing public safety . And wouldn't that just piss the antis off? Not a damn thing they could say about it either. ;D
FQ13
Not that it would keep them from trying. ;D
-
Keeping in mind that the purpose and reasoning behind the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is that we just came out of a war to gain our independence from a tyranical entity that was waged mostly with private arms and ammunition; that these arms used in the Revolutionary War were not only mostly privately owned and held, but they were also state of the art weapons of war and "mass destruction; that through history it has been hunting, recreational shooting and competition that has groomed our best military marksman; and at many times it has also been private firearm collections that were donated and/or lent to the military to keep the effort moving forward (note the loss of British weapons on D Day that were replenished by private collections, and the practice today of private citizens providing sidearms for our soldiers not issued those arms).
I propose the following "Plank" for DRTV:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
PERIOD!
-
It can be argued that Congress is required to provide at least an AR and training to every one required to register for selective service.
Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be enforced"
-
That used to be the case. Back in Merry Olde, the peasants were part of the militia and were required to assemble on the green and practice archery on prescribed days. In the colonies and early republic, the militia was comprised of able bodied men who were to provide for themselves, and maintain, a musket and a fixed amount of rounds and to muster periodically.
FQ13
-
It can be argued that Congress is required to provide at least an AR and training to every one required to register for selective service.
Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be enforced"
-
In Colorado you have to do the 4473 danced to buy any gun from anybody at a gun show. Private party sales (not at a gun show) are not thus restricted. Here the antis call it the "private sales" loophole. And it is all about control.
-
My reloader is still not set up, and there is a shoot tomorrow. Our club hates jacketed ammunition, so I'm screwed. I needed to make a run for a couple other things, so I went to find some lead bullet ammunition. As luck would have it the Scheels store had some - Cabelas had the same brand in bulk for a few cents less, but they are another 60 miles down the road.
I'm standing at the locked case looking and sure I'm not going to find what I want, because I seldom do. When WHAM!!! there it is - Three boxes of 50 ... 150 rounds, and I need between 140 and 200 depending on how ambitious we get. I ask for some, and the pimple faced kid unlocks the case, takes it out, hands it to me, and he is locking the case before I can say "whoa, whoa, whoa I need more!" He grabbed another box and started to close the door when I asked if I could have six boxes. He looked me right in the third eye, or I think that is what he saw, and said "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH sure I think."
What has our nation, especially our rural world in this nation, when people are shocked, stunned, set back, and stare when someone purchases five boxes of ammunition (I wanted six but all they had was five - What kind of gun department only stocks five 50 round boxes of LRN .38 Special?)? When I buy a rifle I try to purchase 150 -200 rounds of mixed ammunition for practice, sighting, and determining which round I like best in the gun. When I purchase a handgun I do the same, but probably 10 times the volume. Dealers, even those who know me, are shocked and tell me that most gun purchases go out the door with one box of ammunition and two at the most.
Not only is the general public less familure with the use of guns, but even so called gun people are less used to it. This brings to mind our tendency to hide our like and use of firearms, and to be overly concerned about offending the anti's. We need to quit worrying as much about what they think, as long as we are being polite and safe, and start thinking about why "We can't all just get along." I have a Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms, and I should apologize to anybody for legally exercising that right. I should expect them to express "why I shouldn't" as opposed to me being expected to defend "why I think I should."
The meaning of this long rant:
We are doing more to give away our right than they are doing to take it!
-
And it is all about control.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.
-
My reloader is still not set up, and there is a shoot tomorrow. Our club hates jacketed ammunition, so I'm screwed. I needed to make a run for a couple other things, so I went to find some lead bullet ammunition. As luck would have it the Scheels store had some - Cabelas had the same brand in bulk for a few cents less, but they are another 60 miles down the road.
I'm standing at the locked case looking and sure I'm not going to find what I want, because I seldom do. When WHAM!!! there it is - Three boxes of 50 ... 150 rounds, and I need between 140 and 200 depending on how ambitious we get. I ask for some, and the pimple faced kid unlocks the case, takes it out, hands it to me, and he is locking the case before I can say "whoa, whoa, whoa I need more!" He grabbed another box and started to close the door when I asked if I could have six boxes. He looked me right in the third eye, or I think that is what he saw, and said "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH sure I think."
What has our nation, especially our rural world in this nation, when people are shocked, stunned, set back, and stare when someone purchases five boxes of ammunition (I wanted six but all they had was five - What kind of gun department only stocks five 50 round boxes of LRN .38 Special?)? When I buy a rifle I try to purchase 150 -200 rounds of mixed ammunition for practice, sighting, and determining which round I like best in the gun. When I purchase a handgun I do the same, but probably 10 times the volume. Dealers, even those who know me, are shocked and tell me that most gun purchases go out the door with one box of ammunition and two at the most.
Not only is the general public less familure with the use of guns, but even so called gun people are less used to it. This brings to mind our tendency to hide our like and use of firearms, and to be overly concerned about offending the anti's. We need to quit worrying as much about what they think, as long as we are being polite and safe, and start thinking about why "We can't all just get along." I have a Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms, and I should apologize to anybody for legally exercising that right. I should expect them to express "why I shouldn't" as opposed to me being expected to defend "why I think I should."
The meaning of this long rant:
We are doing more to give away our right than they are doing to take it!
They may have had much more if you had gotten there earlier . You said it yourself, buy a gun and a couple hundred rounds, sell 10 guns they've gone through 2 cases, how many calibers do they stock ?
How much warehouse space do they have for pallets of ammo ?
-
They may have had much more if you had gotten there earlier . You said it yourself, buy a gun and a couple hundred rounds, sell 10 guns they've gone through 2 cases, how many calibers do they stock ?
How much warehouse space do they have for pallets of ammo ?
Tom,
What I said is that the average person is buying A BOX. Scheels is a regional big box store. They are actually better stocked than Gander Mountain and Cabelas. By the way, the slot for these was full before I emptied it.
The point I am making is that so called shooters and hunters do not shoot enough in a year for me to justify cleaning a gun! Many of us think people actually shoot their guns, but I know people that will purchase a gun and not get any ammunition to go with it.
-
Tom,
What I said is that the average person is buying A BOX. Scheels is a regional big box store. They are actually better stocked than Gander Mountain and Cabelas. By the way, the slot for these was full before I emptied it.
The point I am making is that so called shooters and hunters do not shoot enough in a year for me to justify cleaning a gun! Many of us think people actually shoot their guns, but I know people that will purchase a gun and not get any ammunition to go with it.
That's the difference between shooters and hunters.
The majority of hunters will get multiple years out of a 20 round box.
That's part of why the Fudds think no one needs an AK or AR, a lot of them who are out hunting every year would not live long enough to empty a 30 round mag.
-
OK, I have lead this drift far enough. It is time to get back on task:
What can we do to deal with this platform? Regardless of who is in the Oval Office next February, and regardless of who occupies the seats in the two chambers, this is an issue we must continue to deal with. How will we counter the attack on our God given rights, and how will we stop our own give away of our freedoms?
-
Any hunter that can go years on one 20 round box. Is not a hunter I want to know or be around. when it comes to what we can do to stop this type of stuff. The best thing we can do is introduce people to shooting. every person we do that too is one less mindless anti. they may still be pro gun control, but atleast they have both sides. So they can make a informed choice.
-
Any hunter that can go years on one 20 round box. Is not a hunter I want to know or be around. when it comes to what we can do to stop this type of stuff. The best thing we can do is introduce people to shooting. every person we do that too is one less mindless anti. they may still be pro gun control, but atleast they have both sides. So they can make a informed choice.
TAB,
It takes more than that, because many of our own ranks are as bad as any anti. Look at the magazine, AR, suppressor, automatic, waiting periods, and even basic carry to name just a few. Some of the most damage to our fundamental right is being done by so called pro-gun people advocating "common sense compromise" or under the idea of "they aren't after our hunting guns."
-
Dude, The fact you local big box store does not carry what you think is enough of the ammo you happen to want has nothing to do with politics or gun rights.
It's all about sales volume .
How often do you go in and buy a couple hundred rounds ?
You want them to stock more ? Create more demand.
As for the rest, bans, limitations, etc.
Get private sale guns and ignore the a holes.
-
Tommy, go back a post and note that I admitted I had taken us too far down this drift.
To answer the avoiding FFL's and going all private does nothing to keep our rights to purchase, and it does nothing to keep this right in the public eye. We need to be able to purchase guns and ammunition just like you purchase a newspaper and magazine - apples to apples First Amendment to Second Amendment!
Our gun stores and their suppliers have blinders on and are missing out on millions of dollars in sales. Even out here in fly over land we have hundreds of shooters that are looking for ammunition and reloading supplies, but our stores will not stock it or cannot get it from their vendors. Everybody is looking at sales reports, which do not track lost sales, or listening to marketing gurus who are not from the industry and only look at certain models and trends that lump shooting and hunting (mostly hunting because they don't understand that shooting is anything but hunting) along with sporting like tennis, golf and possibly camping. We want to purchase in a store with personal contact. We want to touch and fondle the choices. That is why we keep going back and digging through the shelves, and that is why we go to gun shows to purchase. Internet will find it for you, but where is the social interaction that we enjoy?
Bottom line that lead to my drift, and now drags me back into it, is that the reason the DNC can get by with pushing gun control and taking God out of their platform is because those of us that believe in these things are silent and watch it go away with out even a fraction of the protest they put into daily activities against us.
As much as I feel that the open carry crowd does do harm in some of their actions, I also feel that by hiding our activities and exercising of our rights does more. When you are at the store to purchase a little ammunition purchase for a season rather than for a week or a month. Purchase three cases of shot shells, and while you are at the counter with the spandex crowd staring engage the clerk in a conversation on how you compete in trap or skeet, and how the training has improved your health and mental capacity. Purchase three cases, cases not bricks, of .22lr and explain how the youth shooting team has not only been successful at the local and state range but how the discipline has increased their concentration and reengaged them in their studies in school.
To take a few slides from our PowerPoint for Firearm Safety and Hunter Education, we need to be active in groups. Join and be active in you local hunting, shooting, and Second Amendment groups. Abortion, homosexuality, freedom from religion (as opposed to Freedom of Religion), etc. did not gain their main stream acceptance and prominence in our society by hiding their wishes and feelings. We need to go to our local school board and explain the pitfalls and worthless the rule that students cannot have a firearm or ammunition in their car in the parking lot when many of these students are hunting on their way to or from school or participating in youth shooting events shortly after the end of the school day. We need to go to the school board and force them to explain and justify the reasoning behind removing Firearm Safety and Hunter Education from the course options.
Once again I have ranted long in an effort to say that through our silence and low key life choices we have given our lifestyle and rights away. They aren't taking them from us, we are forfeiting them daily!
Note: If you paid attention to the DNC Convention you would see that they do not stand on principle. The DNC will change to keep their position. This is not conviction. They took a stand to remove God from their platform, and the leadership saw that that was going to cost them. They took a vote to put Him back in the platform. Watch the videos of this action. The leadership did everything but say we need you to approve this or we are going to be killed in the media and campaign, but even after three attempts the chair needed to lie that he had a 2/3 majority. If we raise positive awareness we will win!
-
Gotta tell ya, this is the best video I've seem from the DNC.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-5-2012/hope-and-change-2---the-party-of-inclusion (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-5-2012/hope-and-change-2---the-party-of-inclusion)
Sometimes they are so far out in left field even Stewart has to make fun of them.
Uh, uh, almost forgot this one.
-
We really need the headbanging emoticon for that Reason TV piece. Pro-choice, as long as you choose what I want. Oi vey! Of course, you do the same to the GOP delegates. "Do you believe in small government". "Why Yes". "Good, so the government shouldn't be able to stop you from smoking dope, getting an abortion or marrying who you want, even if they are of the same sex right"?...... Crickets. Hypocrites, the lot of them. I hate political parties.
FQ13