The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: RTFM on September 13, 2012, 09:07:00 PM
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http://www.guns.com/walmart-refuses-mossberg-930-shotgun-sale-prayse-dangler-indiana-10965.html
Walmart located in New Albany, Indiana
The man behind the counter looked at me in disbelief when I pointed out the beefy Mossberg 930 Tactical weapon that Brad had researched out for me and planned on taking me out shooting to get comfortable with. The man then proceeded to interrogate me about what I wanted it for and how it would be used. He said that I didn't hold it right and that I needed 'something else better suited to you.' He put it back in the case and firmly refused to sell it—all because I am a petite young woman!
"He threatened me with the FBI and accused me of purchasing the gun for 'someone else'
ass clown!
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ass clown!
Big time +1
>:(
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>:( I almost wish I could find that clerk and talk to him. DUMB
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I really doubt that this sort of profiling is corporate policy, it sounds more like the action of one pompous
ignorant, self important pin head.
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That or the media trying to start some shit. now, I am big beleaver in trying to get the custmer what they actually need more then what the want. in this case a example would be a 5' nothing 90# women wanting to buy a single shot 10 ga. We all know here that is not going to work out well. In the end, if she still wanted it. I would sell it too her.
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Great show Poindexter! First, piss of a young pro-gun woman. I try to do that all the time because really, who wants to get laid? ::) Second, expose your store to a very justifiable lawsuit because her civil rights were violated due to gender. If I were the manager I would give her that shotgun, taking it out of Poindexter's salary, AFTER I had butt stroked him with it. "Sorry Maam, its used, please accept it as a scratch and dent, those teeth will come right out of the recoil pad". ;D What a maroon!
FQ13
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I don't care how big or well trained your organization is. You are only as good as your worst member. Walmart just showed how good they are, and if they don't fix the problem they condone the behavior.
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I don't care how big or well trained your organization is. You are only as good as your worst member. Walmart just showed how good they are, and if they don't fix the problem they condone the behavior.
how true is this..
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Hmmm. Not even FQ comes to Walmart's defense? Wonder if that little woman pointed the shotgun absentmindedly in the direction of another customer or the salesman himself. Wonder if he sold her the shotgun and some shells, she might just load it up when she got outside the store, just to prove she could do it, and by accident shoot a potential Walmart customer in the parking lot. Wonder who (remember corporations are people!) would get sued under that improbable scenario. Okay, she had a legal right to purchase that shotgun. I would have sold it to her. But under no circumstances would I have allowed her to purchase ANY ammo. When I read the first entry, I thought: 'I didn't know Tom worked at Walmart!' Then I read Tom's response and knew it wasn't him because he is not ignorant! Haha, just having fun because whenever I read one of these first person stories, I feel the need to hear the other side before I make a real judgement. As I grow older (my greybeard proves it), I am learning (my motto says it all). Has Walmart responded?
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Dude, 'tis not for a gun store clerk any more than it is for Nancy Pelosi to determine what I am, or am not, qualified to own. If the background check comes up clean, and my credit card is accepted, I expect my gun. Prefferably now. I don't need hoops to jump through. If the clerk thinks I might be better served with something else, I'll listen to him if its an informed opinion. But at the end of the day, its my money, and my rights, and can I have my gun please?
FQ13
PS thanks for posting JR Lobo!
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Wal-mart has a store policy that a manager walks the customer to the car with the gun. That would not necessarily stop someone from shooting up the joint, but would give the manager the opportunity to notice squirrely behavior. Years ago, one area store would not sell both the gun and ammo at the same time of purchase. You could buy one....go outside to the car...and then go in and buy the other, but I think that was an individual policy and not chain-wide (but I don't know for sure).
As a side note, wally world doesn't have a standard format for for gun sales, but it is not their place to judge who can or can not buy a gun as long as the NICS is done. I once had to school an employee at wal-mart on filling out a 4473. They ended up calling a manager and the manager had to tell them I was right and they were wrong. I have not bought one from them since, even though they have some great prices.
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As far as it being "too much gun" for the young lady, I offer the following......
Bonnie Parker, of Bonnie and Clyde fame, stood 4 feet, 10 inches tall and weighed 85 pounds. Bonnie could pick up a
20 pound Browning Automatic Rifle, run with it, shoot it while running, and hit what she was shooting at.
As I remember, B&C also favored the Winchester semi-automatic shotgun, with the barrel and stock cut down.
Bonnie was clearly not worried about recoil, but was instead intent on hitting her targets.
Determination and motivation can conquer nearly any obstacle!
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It is a 12 ga shotgun! What makes it "too much gun" for her?
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It is a 12 ga shotgun! What makes it "too much gun" for her?
Yea! My big Sister (5'-2") used a 12 ga to hunt geese in the fields of Minnesota with her first husband. I'd say she tipped the scales back then at a smidge over 110#.
Not too much gun if you mount it correctly and learn to shoot it properly!
dumb clerks...
Our WW don't sell firearms anymore.
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As far as it being "too much gun" for the young lady, I offer the following......
Bonnie Parker, of Bonnie and Clyde fame, stood 4 feet, 10 inches tall and weighed 85 pounds. Bonnie could pick up a
20 pound Browning Automatic Rifle, run with it, shoot it while running, and hit what she was shooting at.
As I remember, B&C also favored the Winchester semi-automatic shotgun, with the barrel and stock cut down.
Bonnie was clearly not worried about recoil, but was instead intent on hitting her targets.
Determination and motivation can conquer nearly any obstacle!
Spot on, Brother Grizzle.
I spent an afternoon (years ago) instructing a co-worker (a lady about 5' 4" tall and 120 lbs) whom had never fired a handgun in her life, but wanted to learn. We went from .22's to a .357mag to a 1911 and she could hit with them all and control them all safely.
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Yea! My big Sister (5'-2") used a 12 ga to hunt geese in the fields of Minnesota with her first husband. I'd say she tipped the scales back then at a smidge over 110#.
Not too much gun if you mount it correctly and learn to shoot it properly!
dumb clerks...
Our WW don't sell firearms anymore.
In Firearm Safety and Hunter's Education and at Women On Target we recommend the 12 ga. Many people think it is too much and has too much recoil. What most do not have the knowledge or experience to understand is that a 1 oz load 2 1/2 dram load is the same regardless of the gauge of the gun. The extra weight of the 12 ga helps reduce the felt recoil, so with the proper choice of ammunition the 12 ga can actually have less felt recoil than the 20 ga.
I "love" the "know-it-alls" that push people to the .410, because it is "small and easy to shoot. In shotguns, the #1 source of complaints is the .410 and its nasty kick.
Maybe the number one rule for hiring or speaking to a gun salesman is that that person actually shoots, and has shot a variety of firearms.
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FQ,
Like I said, I'd sell her the gun not the ammo. If she demonstrated a lack of knowledge of handling the weapon even in the store, then I think some precaution is necessary, but I wouldn't violate her "rights". Ever see how people handle guns at Cabelas, where used guns are on the floor for inspection? Can be scary. Some people level out the gun for inspection, inadvertantly pointing it toward other people. My point, however, is we only see one part of the story and that from the point of view of the complainant. I'd like to hear...as Paul Harvey used to say...the rest of the story. Got it, Dude?
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Yup.
FQ13 who hopes you won't be a stranger.
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Jrlobo,
What is your legal reason for not selling her the ammunition? Did she state illegal intent, did she state harm to another, or are you just uncomfortable with her with her right to have the tools legally?
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Jrlobo,
What is your legal reason for not selling her the ammunition? Did she state illegal intent, did she state harm to another, or are you just uncomfortable with her with her right to have the tools legally?
He did stipulate
FQ,
Like I said, I'd sell her the gun not the ammo. If she demonstrated a lack of knowledge of handling the weapon even in the store, then I think some precaution is necessary,
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If the clerk had a reason to believe she was making a straw purchase, which doesn't seem like the case from the side of the story we say, he has no grounds for violating her rights.
Thinking she is inept with a shotgun is also no good reason to not sell her shells. There is no proficiency requirement (unless it might be some sad local law).
If he had reason to believe she was impaired or unstable, he might have grounds to withhold the shells.
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Tom,
I would like to know where his legal status is for denying the right. I read his comment and reread, and I reread again when you quoted it, and I still disagree with his stance unless he can explain that.
We have a store, only one store I have found that is a mile from our corporate offices and the easiest place for me to grab some ammunition quick if I need it. However, they require ID, and they scan it for any ammunition sale. I refuse to purchase there, and I am very vocal about their actions which are not law.
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I was simply pointing out that you seemed to have overlooked half of JrLobo's statement.
But to continue his train of thought I'd bet there are things you do that fall into the same category.
It's the CYA policy.
If he had a legitimate cause for concern, no one who matters to his pay check will fault him.
Sounds like this guy is just an officious little pr!ck though.
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Sorry Tom, but I saw nothing in Jr's post or the original story that rose to the level of legitimate denial of either a firearm or ammunition. If this was supposed to be on the line of a straw purchase the clerk, which is all the blue vested zombies are, should have dialed 911 as the law requires. However, to just refuse to do business based on an opinion of a person's ability is not covered in the law.
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I've bought a couple of guns from Walmart with mixed results. My first purchase went fine. The second taught me a valuable lesson.
I was young and less experienced. I didn't purchase it from my local store because it didn't have exactly what I was looking for. It was a stainless and polymer Marlin 22 mag bolt action. Store policy says that customers can't handle firearms without a trigger lock on them. Since they had to get the gun out of the back, it didn't have a lock on it, and I, therefore, couldn't hold it. The salesman didn't ever take it out of the translucent bag it was in and just did all the paperwork by looking through the bag. I naively trusted that everything was fine. Store policy also says that a happy customer isn't allowed to carry his/her just purchased firearm through the store, and it was carried through the door by a manager. I placed the rifle in the car and went back in to get some ammo (I don't remember if they wouldn't let me by it the first round, or if we were just getting it separate because my mon was getting the ammo). No problems with that. The rifle was a present so I didn't get to get it out and look at it for a couple of days. When I finally did, the bolt was very rusty. I knew it wouldn't do any good, but I took it back to the store. I went in first without the rifle and ask them about it. To my surprise, they told me to go get it. Although I, a happy purchaser, couldn't carry it out of the store, I, a disgruntled customer, could carry it back into the store without an escort. (Someone please explain the logic in that to me.) Walmart, of course, did nothing to correct the situation, and I had to send it to Marlin who treated me right. From that point on, I have never purchased a firearm without handling the actual gun to be purchased and inspecting it well. I learned my lesson.
I can't say that I won't ever buy another gun from walmart, but they aren't my first choice.
As to the original post, if they buyer wants it, has the money, passes the background check, and can legally purchase it, the clerk should sale it to her. I don't care if a 4' tall 80lbs woman wants to by a .50 cal barrett; you make the sale if that's what she wants. If asked for an opinion, then he could give it. I may even accept him politely offering it, but not refusing the sale because he didn't think it was the right gun for her.
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Sorry Tom, but I saw nothing in Jr's post or the original story that rose to the level of legitimate denial of either a firearm or ammunition. If this was supposed to be on the line of a straw purchase the clerk, which is all the blue vested zombies are, should have dialed 911 as the law requires. However, to just refuse to do business based on an opinion of a person's ability is not covered in the law.
I was talking about the OP, I was referring to his post immediately before your post of "Yesterday at 09:37:53"
F*ck it, this is getting confusing.
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FQ,
Like I said, I'd sell her the gun not the ammo. If she demonstrated a lack of knowledge of handling the weapon even in the store, then I think some precaution is necessary, but I wouldn't violate her "rights".
That statement to me make you no better than the Walmart employee -
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Apologize guys as I was out "ridin' fence" with my son yesterday. Looks like I stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest with my comments. If we believe we have inalienable rights to fire arms, and I certainly do, then we must also believe that other people have inalienable rights not to sell us fire arms. Go to an auto dealer, have your driver's license and insurance, but when they check your credit rating it doesn't look so hot. The law, constitution, nothing, says anything about your credit rating, but the dealership says 'no sale'. Have they violated your rights? Do they have a right to do that? Okay, fire arms are mentioned in the constitution and autos are not, so my analogy might not be the the best. I am just trying to point out that every transaction has some human-to-human interaction that may not be perfect. Has anyone found any reaction from Walmart to this incident? If the story as I read it was true, then I hope Walmart fired his butt. But, if there is another side to the story, I'd still like to hear it. Thanks for responding positively and negatively...that's how I learn!
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Jrlobo,
O appreciate your starting this debate and your reply. However, you did not answer my question concerning why you would have denied a purchase in this situation. That is what debate is all about, and that is what we do around here.
Please give us your reasoning for why YOU would have not have completed the sale.
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Jrlobo,
O appreciate your starting this debate and your reply. However, you did not answer my question concerning why you would have denied a purchase in this situation. That is what debate is all about, and that is what we do around here.
Please give us your reasoning for why YOU would have not have completed the sale.
Now that we both seem to be talking about the same post I'll recomment.
FQ,
Like I said, I'd sell her the gun not the ammo. If she demonstrated a lack of knowledge of handling the weapon even in the store, then I think some precaution is necessary,
The only way the post made sense to me was to assume JrLobo screwed up his sentence structure.
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Apologize guys as I was out "ridin' fence" with my son yesterday. Looks like I stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest with my comments. If we believe we have inalienable rights to fire arms, and I certainly do, then we must also believe that other people have inalienable rights not to sell us fire arms. Go to an auto dealer, have your driver's license and insurance, but when they check your credit rating it doesn't look so hot. The law, constitution, nothing, says anything about your credit rating, but the dealership says 'no sale'. Have they violated your rights? Do they have a right to do that? Okay, fire arms are mentioned in the constitution and autos are not, so my analogy might not be the the best. I am just trying to point out that every transaction has some human-to-human interaction that may not be perfect. Has anyone found any reaction from Walmart to this incident? If the story as I read it was true, then I hope Walmart fired his butt. But, if there is another side to the story, I'd still like to hear it. Thanks for responding positively and negatively...that's how I learn!
That analogy don't float...... not the same thing at all.
The credit check they do does not mean they are denying you the right to buy the car.... it just means you don't have the required credit line to buy it over a timed period....... They will gladly still sell you the car for cash.
Different horse all together than plainly refusing to sell something outright, for no legal reason.
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That analogy don't float...... not the same thing at all.
The credit check they do does not mean they are denying you the right to buy the car.... it just means you don't have the required credit line to buy it over a timed period....... They will gladly still sell you the car for cash.
Different horse all together than plainly refusing to sell something outright, for no legal reason.
I agree with that summation. Some car dealers will break the law to sell you a car, promise you everything and bait and switch you till you're reeling from the pressure. Most I've dealt with could care less what happens after you drive off the lot.
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Car dealers get paid for every car they do the paper work on. It the financial company, Credit company, bank, whoever your payments are supposed to go to that gets hosed if you don't pay for it.
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m58,
Believe Tom caught it. To reiterate though, if the little girl demonstrated to me that she couldn't handle the shotgun in the store (couldn't heft it under control, couldn't control muzzle direction, etc.), I wouldn't let her have the shells with it to carry through the store, etc. For all I know the salesman was her husband and that, to me, is the essence of needing to know the rest of the story. Guess I am just an old skeptic that no longer takes a one person story at face value. My motto says it better.
As for the analogy, the auto dealer has the first choice of whether or not to sell you the car. It's his right.
Hopefully I am not as bad as the salesman in Walmart! I would have sold her the shotgun for Pete's sake.
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Jrlobo,
I believe you caught my drift that I feel both Walmart and you are wrong in your stances. One for not selling the firearm, and you for being willing to not sell ammunition based on your opinion of use and ability.
That is my opinion, and based on the story I see no reason for it to be any other way.
Sorry if that offends you, but that is me. Tom and I have disagreed in the past as well, and I am surprised at this one.
Mike
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Jrlobo,
I believe you caught my drift that I feel both Walmart and you are wrong in your stances. One for not selling the firearm, and you for being willing to not sell ammunition based on your opinion of use and ability.
That is my opinion, and based on the story I see no reason for it to be any other way.
Sorry if that offends you, but that is me. Tom and I have disagreed in the past as well, and I am surprised at this one.
Mike
Mike, it wasn't "Wal - Mart", it was one self important clerk.
There's enough stuff to bitch about about Wal Mart, no need to blame them just because one clerk is a pinhead.
It depends on circumstances, in this case I would have sold her the gun and ammo, I can think of situations where I would either not make the sale or just call security.
I can't think of a situation where I would sell the gun but not the ammo.
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Tom,
It is Walmart! A business is responsible for everything their employees do when on duty. I did searches right after I first read this and found nothing to say Walmart rectified the situation. I have also not heard from any source that Walmart rectified this. Based on those three comments I stick by Walmart being responsible for their employee's on duty actions. That is the reason you hear about business releasing, suspending or supporting their employees following incidents. Walmart has remained quiet as far as I can read.
If I misunderstood your opinion that Walmart or Jrlobo was ok in their stance of not selling a firearm or ammunition to a legal buyer I appologize.
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Tom,
It is Walmart! A business is responsible for everything their employees do when on duty. I did searches right after I first read this and found nothing to say Walmart rectified the situation. I have also not heard from any source that Walmart rectified this. Based on those three comments I stick by Walmart being responsible for their employee's on duty actions. That is the reason you hear about business releasing, suspending or supporting their employees following incidents. Walmart has remained quiet as far as I can read.
If I misunderstood your opinion that Walmart or Jrlobo was ok in their stance of not selling a firearm or ammunition to a legal buyer I appologize.
You say you found nothing saying they had rectified the problem.
Did you find anything saying they had not ?
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When you are reading the news paper, listening to radio news, watching tv news, or searching news sources which do you see:
A long list of press releases not issued;
Or a press releases from entities stating something?
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In other words you don't know whether they did anything about it or not, only that there were no further reports.
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Guys, I am not offended by those who disagree with me, so disagree away. But I won't change my stance on this until I see something from Walmart and or the salesman. Their silence is not considered to be their guilt by me, just suspicion. I use my own judgement and you use yours. So be it.
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Don't we all???
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Guys, I am not offended by those who disagree with me, so disagree away. But I won't change my stance on this until I see something from Walmart and or the salesman. Their silence is not considered to be their guilt by me, just suspicion. I use my own judgement and you use yours. So be it.
Thick skin and a lively debate is welcome around here. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I just like poking the bees nest with the first stick....... ;D