The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on September 29, 2012, 12:04:16 AM
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This is too good to miss. Felonious Munk on BO and the debt. Its a must watch. And Tom, did your old man ever stray? ;D
FQ13
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I think he's talking about stuff like this...
Postal Service to default on second $5B payment
Published September 28, 2012
Associated Press
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/28/postal-service-to-default-on-second-5b-payment/?test=latestnews#ixzz27qzjxws4
If it didn't mean more unemployment I would say just close the USPS... close the doors, sell the assets to pay the debt, and let private companies provide the service. I haven't mailed a letter or a bill payment in years. I use email exclusively and enjoy problem-free online banking. The only thing I receive in the mail is junk - and tons of it that I just throw away. Really, what product or service does the USPS provide that couldn't be provided more efficiently by a private company at no cost to the taxpayer?
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FQ, I like this guy!
The Post Office.. We NEED the Post Office. We don't need the postal workers union..
The P.O. is necessary and Constitutionally mandated, just like national defense.
I think we need to do whatever needs to be done to keep it, and keep it affordable. It it takes .75 cents to mail a letter, that's fine. It runs Four Bucks in some parts of the world, and without the guarantee of privacy..
The privacy laws regarding (snail) mail and (land line) telephone are important.
I think .gov would be running the price through the roof if they thought it would impede freedom, and we had no other choice. Still, we need the Post Office..
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To young to be my brother and to old to be my son . ;D
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I think he's talking about stuff like this...
Postal Service to default on second $5B payment
Published September 28, 2012
Associated Press
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/28/postal-service-to-default-on-second-5b-payment/?test=latestnews#ixzz27qzjxws4
If it didn't mean more unemployment I would say just close the USPS... close the doors, sell the assets to pay the debt, and let private companies provide the service. I haven't mailed a letter or a bill payment in years. I use email exclusively and enjoy problem-free online banking. The only thing I receive in the mail is junk - and tons of it that I just throw away. Really, what product or service does the USPS provide that couldn't be provided more efficiently by a private company at no cost to the taxpayer?
You don't think that a private company is going to charge you to deliver mail too? It would only change the direction the money went, not the cost. Not defending the USPS at all, I think it needs to be streamlined and reorganized. Our house is less than a mile from a Post Office but we have to go across town to get large packages or Certified mail since the close one is another zip code.
Just because you don't mail out something doesn't mean the rest of the country doesn't have some use for the service. You still recieve stuff. Depending on the size and destination Priority Mail is still cheaper than FedEx for some of the hobby stuff I send or recieve. Once a private company was to take that over all bets are off. I'd say the cost to send a paperback sized package to the west coast woould triple in cost.
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You don't think that a private company is going to charge you to deliver mail too? It would only change the direction the money went, not the cost. Not defending the USPS at all, I think it needs to be streamlined and reorganized. Our house is less than a mile from a Post Office but we have to go across town to get large packages or Certified mail since the close one is another zip code.
Just because you don't mail out something doesn't mean the rest of the country doesn't have some use for the service. You still recieve stuff. Depending on the size and destination Priority Mail is still cheaper than FedEx for some of the hobby stuff I send or recieve. Once a private company was to take that over all bets are off. I'd say the cost to send a paperback sized package to the west coast woould triple in cost.
I don't think he meant that we wouldn't have to pay to have something delivered either across town or across country. I took it to mean that taxpayers wouldn't be throwing good money after bad. The local USPS counter service is slow, rude, and unhelpful. They can be this way because they (the USPS) hold a monopoly on mail service. They didn't receive the nick-name snail mail for no reason. Competition would mean efficiencies only present in the nightmares of postal employee's. Competition would also mean lower prices.
Laid off or terminated USPS employee's could/should work for a private service. They, of course, wouldn't have the overly generous pay scale and pension benefits that non-governmental employee's don't have the opportunity to enjoy either.
Won't happen though. Federal employee's account for around 30% of voters. Think they would knowingly/willingly vote themselves out of an fairly easy well paying job with outstanding benefits?
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Not disagreeing that the Postal Service has issues but the pension and attitude you mention has more to do with being union than being gov't.
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Government worker = union member. Pretty much anyway.
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The USPS is a matter of national security. It was true when Franklin designed the thing, and its true now. We don't expect the Army to make a profit and we shouldn't with the post office (it'd be nice if it broke even, but I can live with it losing money).
FQ13
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The USPS is a matter of national security. It was true when Franklin designed the thing, and its true now. We don't expect the Army to make a profit and we shouldn't with the post office (it'd be nice if it broke even, but I can live with it losing money).
FQ13
I don't understand about it being a matter of national security?
Getting Christmas Cards delivered on time can't be very critical to national security?
If it is needed as a means to deliver critical government communications, couldn't one of many government agencies have a courier service for the critical communications?
If the private corporation that delivered non-critical correspondence faltered during a crisis and mountains of junk mail stacked up, I don't think the effect would be drastic?
Just like we don't use the Military for Rent-A-Cop security details, we don't need to use the critical USPS to deliver catalogs or birthday cards.
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We don't need the postal service anymore and I seriously doubt that national security would be in jeopardy if it went bust!
I get nothing in the mail but junk mail and AARP (which I refuse to belong to) crap! I've been berated by my last peon postal clerk! I'll never use them for other than mailing the occasional bill and I could pay those bills online.
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It is about maintaing the flow of commerce and communications between the states. Now, if someone at the USPS had been thinking, maybe they would be offering internet or cell service. But the fact is, being able to mail a birthday card, a catalog and a check IS a matter of national security. Its what keeps us connected and the economy flowing.
FQ
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FQ, I've been working in business for nearly thirty years. I don't believe my company relies much on the postal service for anything. Nearly all of our correspondence comes from UPS, FedEx and similar means. A company of modest size is using an internet portal that's highly secured to use for interdepartmental communications. We no longer need the pony express...
My company is global, we have satellite offices or divisions in Saudi Arabia, Belgium, Shanghai, Mexico as well as main offices in Tulsa, two in MA and the corporation is in Irving, TX. We come to a complete halt if we waited on the postal service!
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Those guys are great if you're in an urban area. But if you live in east bumfark? And who's going to deliver the junk mail? That's not a joke, companies spend hundreds of millions on that stuff for a reason. Do you really want to spend $10 at ups to mail a birthday card or a check? The security issue is same as in Franklin's time. How do you knit a disparate people seperated by long distances into a cohesive nation? His answer then and its true now, is to provide a cheap and reliable means of correspondence not given to the vagaries of commerce. The USPS needs to get better, but it should stay.
FQ13
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Then get the government out of the equation and see if it can stand on it's own two feet! Cut the costs, pensions, whatever to get it profitable and see what happens.
Any other company run that poorly would be forced to change or die! Do we need Saturday mail service or are we pandering to the unions and their loss of overtime? They get every national holiday off, never work Sunday and probably get several weeks vacation to boot! That's not how private industry works anymore! Get with the times...
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Then get the government out of the equation and see if it can stand on it's own two feet! Cut the costs, pensions, whatever to get it profitable and see what happens.
Any other company run that poorly would be forced to change or die! Do we need Saturday mail service or are we pandering to the unions and their loss of overtime? They get every national holiday off, never work Sunday and probably get several weeks vacation to boot! That's not how private industry works anymore! Get with the times...
Actually, those times seem a lot like the 19th century. Unions are there for a reason Timothy, and labor is a commodity like any other. Collective bargaining is the way too increase its cost, same as oil producers, retailers etc, manipulate supply and pricing to increase profits. Its called capitalism.
FQ13
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Actually, those times seem a lot like the 19th century. Unions are there for a reason Timothy, and labor is a commodity like any other. Collective bargaining is the way too increase its cost, same as oil producers, retailers etc, manipulate supply and pricing to increase profits. Its called capitalism.
FQ13
Then you should vote for your guy again FQ! Unions today are certainly not promoting profitability, quite the contrary! I seriously doubt that postal workers give a shit if their department is making money! Congress will bail them out with our money again and again!
I've worked my ass off for nearly forty years and I'll get about 500 bucks a month from a pension I have from a previous employer! Somewhere around 1993, coincidentally when Slick Willy the Violator was elected, companies started ending that practice as well as forcing us to pay more health premiums! Companies are getting raped by the feds and it's not getting better! Government needs to get the f..k out of my pocket and the pockets of the producers!
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Piss on the USPS.
I ordered replacement parts for my mower and truck from four different suppliers.
They were shipped as follows: 2 UPS, 1 FedEx, and one USPS.
Guess which one still isn't here, but was ordered first.... 8 days ago?
Yep, the one shipped USPS.....and it is a small, envelope-sized package weighing less than 1 lb.
I actually had a postal worker at the shipping desk at our local office tell me that even though I paid $15 for overnight priority letter delivery for some legal documents, they didn't really guarantee next day delivery and that it "might" get there as promised.
UPS guarantees delivery for the same $15 for a document..... so I use UPS.
I buy a book of stamps about once every 6 months or so.
I do everything online except for three or so local medical bills that I mail. A funny note to online billing, my locally owned phone company that also does my internet service doesn't do online billing..... but I drive by their office a dozen times a month so I just drop it off when due and avoid the stamp. I may start paying the medical bills in person also and then the only bill I'll mail is for trash pick-up.
Are folks like me a part of the reason the USPS doesn't make the income it used to? Sure, I'll cop to that.
But it isn't the main reason.
Like someone else mentioned, reorganize and put prices and service where they should be.
No more than I use snail-mail, I'd pay a buck to mail a card.
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Timothy, I agree with your latter point. But, do you think any other supplier is concerned about the profitability of their consumer beyond not killing the golden goose? Hell no! They want as big a share of the profits as they can sustainably get, and good for them. I just think labor should be the same, hence unions. Now granted, I think some unions have taken it way too far and are killing their companies by making absurd demands. But the fact is that I find it hilarious that hard nosed capitalists scream "socialism" when the workers use their own tactics against them. "You want this? Its going to cost you". That's the American way. Frankly, I think a lot of this could be solved if more companies (and many do) give workers the option of buying company stock at highly discounted prices or even free after X years of service, so that they have an incentive to make the enterprise a success.
FQ13
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Timothy, I agree with your latter point. But, do you think any other supplier is concerned about the profitability of their consumer beyond not killing the golden goose? Hell no! They want as big a share of the profits as they can sustainably get, and good for them. I just think labor should be the same, hence unions. Now granted, I think some unions have taken it way too far and are killing their companies by making absurd demands. But the fact is that I find it hilarious that hard nosed capitalists scream "socialism" when the workers use their own tactics against them. "You want this? Its going to cost you". That's the American way. Frankly, I think a lot of this could be solved if more companies (and many do) give workers the option of buying company stock at highly discounted prices or even free after X years of service, so that they have an incentive to make the enterprise a success.
FQ13
Problem is that those other suppliers have to compete with those offering the same service. That is how Capitalism should work.
Unions, however, are protected by laws so that even busting the union is not allowed. So no, they are not comparable.
Now if there were multiple "unions" in the same area competing to supply the workforce for a company, that would be different.
I'm sure the existing unions would be receptive to that plan.
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The woes of the USPS as well as the advantages and disadvantages of privatizing the service have long been the source of debate and will remain so for quite some time. In my opinion, one of the most important aspects of this debate is simply that our preferred means of communication has changed so dramatically due to technology.
Taking full advantage of the Internet, paperless technologies (Adobe PDF, etc.), and encryption have enabled banks, insurance companies, corporations, and government agencies to fundamentally change forever the manner in which they conduct business. We are asked to go "paperless" at every turn. Printed books, newspapers, and magazines are disappearing at an amazing pace. Children in many schools are given laptops instead of textbooks. Millions of emails are generated daily for both personal and business purposes. Human events are captured and posted to YouTube and Facebook for the world to see. Our lives are enriched by digital media in ways that were unimaginable only a few years ago... and this trend is not slowing down.
The notion that we must spend billions of dollars to save an institution that is desperately trying to provide services that fewer people want just doesn't make sense. If the USPS can evolve to meet the digital needs of our nation then fine... if they can't then we must consider the economic implications of subsidizing a dying industry.
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With all his easily disproved blather FQ got one thing right, in the late 1700's when Franklin set up the Constitutionally mandated Postal service, it was indeed a matter of National Security, it's way stations assured timely transmission of Government and business information .
As for public sector unions, they pose a conflict of interest with out actually serving the needs of the workers.
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With all his easily disproved blather FQ got one thing right, in the late 1700's when Franklin set up the Constitutionally mandated Postal service, it was indeed a matter of National Security, it's way stations assured timely transmission of Government and business information .
As for public sector unions, they pose a conflict of interest with out actually serving the needs of the workers.
I'm an analog guy in a digital world Tom. Maybe I made a mistake watching "Revolution". Maybe I'm just an old fart who touched his first computer in college. Whatever the cause, I like ink on paper. Screw Ebooks, I'll either buy them or check them out of my library (and for the record, how many members have library cards? I'll post on a seperate thread, so don't answer here). The point is, having that infrastructure to move paper and goods from point A to point B is priceless, and once its gone, its gone forever, just like our industrial base. People said we can buy steel, and house hold goods, and ball bearings and auto parts from overseas cheaper. They were right. But what happens if those overseas sources dry up tommorow (quoting my OP, because we can't pay the f....k light bill?), then what? How easy is it going to be to recreate that infra-structure of trained machinists and electricians and all the rest of it? Buying cheap is great, but there is always a down range cost. To me, the USPS is a line in the sand. We will not privatize, internationalize and out source what was one of our flagship achievements. It looks good on paper today, but when the SHTF tommorow, who will think it was a good idea?
FQ13
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I bet you have "The Postman" on the shelf somewhere, don't you? Maybe the movie?
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I bet you have "The Postman" on the shelf somewhere, don't you? Maybe the movie?
The book yeah, the movie? I did say I was an analog, ink on paper guy right? Kevin Costner made two good movies, and that wasn't one of them. I'll pass. ;D
FQ13
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The book yeah, the movie? Kevin Costner made two good movies, and that wasn't one of them. ;D
FQ13
Were they both baseball movies?
I still like Bull Durham...
;D
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Ok, three good movies. I was thinking of "No Way Out" and "13 Days in September", but "Bull Durham", that was a good one.
FQ13
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Guys, I loathe (especially public sector) labor unions. It's publicly paid extortion.
If you can make the case for privatizing the Post Office, you can make the same argument for the military.
I'm not prepared to question the wisdom of what they saw fit to include in Constitution. Kick the plug out of the wall and the mail will still run, eventually. The Chinese buy Fedex and what do you have? Security?
Hugo Chavez and the Saudis sell us our gasoline. How is that working for us? Russia sells Europe their heat. It's the same principle. Bad idea..
I'm sorry, but it's in the Constitution for a reason..
Talk about learning lessons for B movies.. Remember Battlestar Galactica? Everything was wired. No analogue/non-network communications.. I'm not suggesting cyborgs or zombies, but think about it..
I know it sounds like a stupid comparison, but a real version of that could play out today.. Kinda the same reason we have to guard our emotions here, to some degree, lest the Secret Service pay us a visit.. You don't need a warrant to search email. Reading paper isn't done by some computer at the NSA. You (still) have to show cause to open it. (I know the OSS and all, but you get my drift here..)
We need the Post Office..
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+100 Santa!
FQ13
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I'm an analog guy in a digital world Tom. Maybe I made a mistake watching "Revolution". Maybe I'm just an old fart who touched his first computer in college. Whatever the cause, I like ink on paper. Screw Ebooks, I'll either buy them or check them out of my library (and for the record, how many members have library cards? I'll post on a seperate thread, so don't answer here). The point is, having that infrastructure to move paper and goods from point A to point B is priceless, and once its gone, its gone forever, just like our industrial base. People said we can buy steel, and house hold goods, and ball bearings and auto parts from overseas cheaper. They were right. But what happens if those overseas sources dry up tommorow (quoting my OP, because we can't pay the f....k light bill?), then what? How easy is it going to be to recreate that infra-structure of trained machinists and electricians and all the rest of it? Buying cheap is great, but there is always a down range cost. To me, the USPS is a line in the sand. We will not privatize, internationalize and out source what was one of our flagship achievements. It looks good on paper today, but when the SHTF tommorow, who will think it was a good idea?
FQ13
Sounds great FQ, except that the Govt postal system will be one of the first to collapse since it is so dependent on automated sorting, air transport and all those little vans, cut off the gas or electricity and it dies instantly and we're back to trying to work up to the pony express.
In fact, kill the electric grid and we instantly go back to having no communications beyond yelling distance, we would be technologically behind the Sumerians and Aztecs since they had established systems of runners.
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True, but that's my point. At least we'd have an infrastructure. And if mailman Cliff had to start running, well, he's got a job, a uniform and a stack of mail. Just like in post colonial times. Mess with him and there's a rope with your name on it. The same can't be said for fed ex.
FQ13
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True, but that's my point. At least we'd have an infrastructure. And if mailman Cliff had to start running, well, he's got a job, a uniform and a stack of mail. Just like in post colonial times. Mess with him and there's a rope with your name on it. The same can't be said for fed ex.
FQ13
But, most postal clerks are middle aged and like the rest of the population, 60% of them are so out of shape they couldn't run 100 feet without a five minute break! Soon, you'd have a union issue that for every 100 feet of travel, they'd require a five minute rest period!
Sorry, Constitutional issues aside, let it go... They're not going to survive in their current structure!
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Just tell them there's beer at the other end of the route.
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Just tell them there's beer at the other end of the route.
ROFL! It would work too. That's how a friend of ours back in grad school got us all to move her stuff from one apartment to another in the same complex. Got the move done in record time too. She put a keg in the new place. ;D
FQ13
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ROFL! It would work too. That's how a friend of ours back in grad school got us all to move her stuff from one apartment to another in the same complex. Got the move done in record time too. She put a keg in the new place. ;D
FQ13
You made me think of it with your Clif Clavan reference.