The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: santahog on October 19, 2012, 09:36:39 AM
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It's bound to be hard to resist putting these people out of the nations misery..
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But you do realize that it is Bush's fault, and the continuing blame falls on the Republicans for continuing to cut spending for education. I mean, how do you expect these students to keep up with current affairs if you hold education inflation to slightly more than national inflation?
When I went to college, 1991 and 31 years old, one of my first professors required that everyone in the class obtain and read a newspaper, local daily or national daily, everyday. He quizzed us on current events at the beginning of every class. This was a general ed course not related to journalism, political science, social studies, or the like. He pointed out that you are in a university setting to learn more than a trade. You are there for the well rounded education that teaches you how to think for yourself and arrive at an informed decision. These morons, including the senior citizen, all deserve a full refund on their tuition paid to this point!
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But you do realize that it is Bush's fault, and the continuing blame falls on the Republicans for continuing to cut spending for education. I mean, how do you expect these students to keep up with current affairs if you hold education inflation to slightly more than national inflation?
When I went to college, 1991 and 31 years old, one of my first professors required that everyone in the class obtain and read a newspaper, local daily or national daily, everyday. He quizzed us on current events at the beginning of every class. This was a general ed course not related to journalism, political science, social studies, or the like. He pointed out that you are in a university setting to learn more than a trade. You are there for the well rounded education that teaches you how to think for yourself and arrive at an informed decision. These morons, including the senior citizen, all deserve a full refund on their tuition paid to this point!
As a prof, I will say you are half right. I did require my students to get a subscrition to the NYT (as it was basically free, and the local paper was a ten page small town mullet wrapper). BUT....I was having to teach at the college level what they should have been taught from junior high. Its hard to do your job when you're dealing with four years worth of catch up. Here's something we can all agree on. Let's start calling social studies Civics again, and start giving weekly quizzes on current events. Damn, but things would get much better inside a generation. Forget the spin the MSM puts on things, at least they'd know what happened. A famous Airforce quote? "Our bombs are smarter than the average American High School student. They can at least find Kuwait". ;D :'(
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I'm not sure what difference changing the name from social studies to Civics would have.
You'll need to give some explanation of your thinking on that, I would think History and Current events would be more apt, and more in line with where the focus should be.
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I'm not sure what difference changing the name from social studies to Civics would have.
You'll need to give some explanation of your thinking on that, I would think History and Current events would be more apt, and more in line with where the focus should be.
You just summed it up. Teach our government, our history, our culture, and what went on the world last week andask them to figure out how those events fits into the first three.
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Another thing that would be handy would be comparing current events to Historic incidents.
For example Jefferson Vs Barbary pirates compared to modern jihad.
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FQ,
I had a couple, thankfully only a couple, professors and instructors like you. When I go to a course that has entry standards I am there to further my education - not review what I should know. If you have students that are not up to speed it is their responsibility to catch up. The majority in your class are paying over $100, and often much more, per credit to learn. Quit dumbing down education by catering to the lowest common denominator!
I have not talked to a college student that could not find tutoring help if they need it to catch up or meet the minimum entry standards. When you offer that as a part of your class you are stealing from those that came prepared.
I have learned through 30 years of adult and youth education that I have been involved with that people will achieve the standard you set. If you lower the bar that is as far as they will go. However, if you keep raising the bar, within reason, they will keep striving to reach that bar. There are always a few that will do just what they need to do to pass, but most will try for the extra, and some will try for more than you expect.
The following is a current dilemma I have with a teaching partner that I am trying to resolve, but it ties to the current mess our teacher's unions have created locally:
Teaching To The Test
Every year I am the lead instructor for our Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Firearm Safety and Hunter Education. This is the mandatory course if you wish to obtain a hunting license in Minnesota, and most of the students are 11 or 12 years of age. We do have about 30% of the class that are older teenagers and parents of youth.
I start the course with a description of what they will learn and how they will learn it. I introduce the textbook and its format. 100% of the time I will get several questions at that time and multiple times a session about what to read, how far into the book to go, and if they need to do the worksheets. My constant response is that they need to know everything in the book, and they should start reading and completing the worksheets. They should continue until they are finished! I tell them that we want to focus on the most important safety issues and the extras not in the book, but we can not do that if we need to teach the book.
Every year we have about 20% that struggle with items we don't focus on verbally, and 4% to 5% that need to retest or get special help to pass the test. My co-instructor wants me to update and reintroduce a practice test that I used one year when I was an assistant instructor a decade ago. That year we had 100% pass on the first try and an average score of 96%. I am reluctant, because I am just teaching the test and not true knowledge and skill. I am spoon feeding the student what they need to pass the test without true practical knowledge and skill.
Too many teachers today are going the easy route to raise scores and move things on in a non-confrontational manor at the expense of true teaching. Now I just need to get across to my co-instructor that in the name of feel good get them their card so they can go hunting with dad, I will not sacrifice true safety and knowledge. If I bend in this area I am feeding the fire of the anti's that idiots are running around in the woods in their Elmer Fudd hats shooting everything they see or hear.
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I'm not sure what difference changing the name from social studies to Civics would have.
You'll need to give some explanation of your thinking on that, I would think History and Current events would be more apt, and more in line with where the focus should be.
Tom expresses the problem when we fail to communicate. The name does not matter! The content is what matters! I don't care whether you are teaching American History, American Social Studies, Civics, Social Studies, American Civics, Political Science, or any other name, I care that we are teaching who we are, where we came from, why we came, how we came, what we became, how we became, how we evolved, how we operate, etc. Call you what you want, the name doesn't matter. If we get bogged down in names we will never move on to the most important part - the content.
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M58, I get your point, but you're wrong. I can't start lecturing on Drug policy in the age of Imperialism, when more than half the class doesn't know what that is, that TR was President, or that we invaded the Philippines. They should know that stuff, but they don't. And to start talking about our relations with British India and China, when they have no clue that the British controlled both countries and then to talk about the Philippines would be a waste of breath. So, its either teach to 5 kids out of a hundred, or spend a week playing catchup. It irritates the hell out of me, but as you say, they're paying $100 a pop to be educated, so educated they shall be. Even if I want to strangle their high school history teachers. >:(
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, they're paying $100 a pop to be edcutated, so educated they shall be. Even if I want to strangle their high school history teachers. >:(
That education needs to come from a failing grade and remedial history/civics/current events classes, that also cost $100 a credit. When mom and them get the bill for that, then we'll start to get somewhere. Life ain't fair, college/university should be training for life, not a post high school party.
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What does the course prerequisite and your syllabus state as base knowledge and expectations?
Hold them to it!
If I am the one getting short changed because you are catering to an idiot, there fault or a former babysitter's, you will know I am unhappy. There are many professors and instructors that will verify that if you wish.
By the way, they are not paying the big bucks for catch up education. They are paying for the higher levels, and if they screwed up or got screwed that is an additional fee they pay a tutor.
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That education needs to come from a failing grade and remedial history/civics/current events classes, that also cost $100 a credit. When mom and them get the bill for that, then we'll start to get somewhere. Life ain't fair, college/university should be training for life, not a post high school party.
This post shouldn't surprise me. Your handle describes me ;) You hit the nail squarely on the head right there!
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M58, and FBG,
I have to agree with FQ on this one, It is not the collage professors fault if he hast teach remedial English before he can assign an essay if that is the only way to get coherent results.
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The real problem is that kids and their parents now see college as a right and the norm. Most colleges are in it to make money, so they accept all of these braindead twats and lower their standards to cater to them. College used to be a place only the smartest people went to help them become even better. Now, it's just a place every yuppie feels that their kid needs to go, whether it be for status or for the hope of a better future.
I got out of college a little over a decade ago, and even then, I'd say that only about 15% or less of the students had the intelligence to comprehend the higer level subjects that should be taught in college.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with getting a job right out of high school or going to a tech school to learn a trade.
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M58, and FBG,
I have to agree with FQ on this one, It is not the collage professors fault if he hast teach remedial English before he can assign an essay if that is the only way to get coherent results.
It is not his fault that it is needed, but it is his fault for dumbing down the process and ripping off the students that come in meeting the MINIMAL standards. Pres. BHO and his ilk would be proud of you two for penalizing those of us that worked hard to meet the standard. They would brag about your way of lowering expectations and putting the unprepared and lazy first.
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M58, and FBG,
I have to agree with FQ on this one, It is not the collage professors fault if he hast teach remedial English before he can assign an essay if that is the only way to get coherent results.
No bone picking here, It oughta be called REMEDIAL. It should cost the same as English 101. The explanation to Mom and them is, hey, they didn't learn it in high school, 'cause they was taught to pass some damn test, they weren't taught to learn/think/reason. Bad grammar, poor syntax, and colloquial English on purpose 'cause I'm a hillbilly with a high school education, but I can reason/think, and sometimes am even capable of learning something.
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I can't bellieve I'm quoting Donald Rumsfeld, but I'm doing it it. "You don't go to war with the army you want, you go to war with the army you have". Its a paraphrase, but close enough.
I don't run the high schools, I'm not their dad who should have sat them down in front of the history channel rather than MTV, and I'm not in charge of admissions. You work with what you have. The thing is, these aren't stupid kids. They're just ignorant. Part of it is the obsession with standarized tests in high school that focuses on memorization and regurgitation (that's the GOPs fault). Part of it is the "every one's a winner and no one fails" philosophy (chalk that up to the Dems). And a large part is due to parents who don't care enought to teach their kids themselves. Me, I've got 100 kids. I can't tell 95 of them to go home.
Here's a very old military quote from Hericletus:
“Of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are nothing but targets, nine are real fighters… We are lucky to have them… They make the battle. Ah, but the one, one of them is a Warrior… and he will bring the others back.” -Hericletus
My job is to teach them all. So, we go to war with the army we have and my job is to train them the best I can. But can't help but wondering what the hell they did all day in high school if they can't write, can't argue and don't know jack about their own history?
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I could keep trying to make my point, but the tenured and/or union protected will not get it.
I leave at this point with thankfulness that I never had and never will have you as an educator short changing my investment of time, energy and money!
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The real problem is that kids and their parents now see college as a right and the norm.
Absolutely correct, sir.
And our prez Odamna announced that he wants to make it possible for everybody to go to college.
That is wrong on so many levels, but I would point out that IMNSHO college should be only for those who have both earned and want higher education.
That's not everybody.
Some kids would do better in a trade school. Some will reach their apex working at Mickey D's. Some do not have enough on the ball to excel at anything more mentally challenging than operating a shovel. It's just the way it is.
But, since kindergarten we have been handing out A and B grades to kids who don't miss more than 50% of class sessions so now every little snowflake thinks they deserve everything.
Little Johnny doesn't train, overeats, and comes in last in the 400 meter race. He gets a trophy just like the kid who sacrificed after school time to run and push weights and train hard.
Little League teams around the country are being pressed to not keep score so unskilled little fatso bastards don't get their feelings hurt.
Meanwhile, the country is going down the drain because our college graduates expect big salaries for showing up. They don't know how to excel at anything anymore.
I'm getting off the soapbox, now. /rant off
Crusader
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I could keep trying to make my point, but the tenured and/or union protected will not get it.
I leave at this point with thankfulness that I never had and never will have you as an educator short changing my investment of time, energy and money!
Try listening M58. I don't disagree with a word you've said. You are 100% right. Problem is, I live on planet earth, and stuff doesn't work that way. In my perfect world, I would teach how I wanted to who I wanted, and if you can't keep up? Bitch to your high school principal for not doing his job. It ain't my problem.
But that's not how it works. I play the hand I'm dealt, and unions (at least at the college level) have squat to do with it. We work with what we've got. I don't like it, but that's life. If all I get are smart but ignorant people, my job ist to educate the ignorance out of them. I had a rep for being a bastard on exams, and it was deserved, but you can't be a bastard until you give them the facts, even if they should have gotten those in HS..
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Just a question, FQ.... or two or so...
If you did decide to boot 75% of the class on the first day for not meeting minimum specs, what exactly would happen on the second day of class?
I suspect that the 75% would be in the bursars office demanding a refund and perhaps threatening legal action.
Would it have been possible to screen the incoming students for meeting the requirements and not enroll those who fell below the mins?
Would the university president stop by your class to give you an Atta Boy and tell you it's about time you Profs stepped up and did what needed to be done?
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If you did decide to boot 75% of the class on the first day for not meeting minimum specs, what exactly would happen on the second day of class?
He would be fired before the 2nd day for turning away "paying customers."
Would it have been possible to screen the incoming students for meeting the requirements and not enroll those who fell below the mins?
Some classes have prerequisites, but not all of them. If he's just a starting prof, he's not going to get the higher level classes, so there is no 'screening process' or prerequisites. He's stuck trying to teach the top 10% while the bottom 90% drag them down.
Would the university president stop by your class to give you an Atta Boy and tell you it's about time you Profs stepped up and did what needed to be done?
Probably not. Colleges are a funny entity. They want to further education through research and such (for which they get beau coups bucks), but to do so they also have to 'educate' the masses and make money by being a diploma factory for the people who are too damn stupid to tie their own shoes, but have met the minimum standard for entry. Kicking out 75% of your paying customers isn't going to sit well.
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He would be fired before the 2nd day for turning away "paying customers."
Some classes have prerequisites, but not all of them. If he's just a starting prof, he's not going to get the higher level classes, so there is no 'screening process' or prerequisites. He's stuck trying to teach the top 10% while the bottom 90% drag them down.
Probably not. Colleges are a funny entity. They want to further education through research and such (for which they get beau coups bucks), but to do so they also have to 'educate' the masses and make money by being a diploma factory for the people who are too damn stupid to tie their own shoes, but have met the minimum standard for entry. Kicking out 75% of your paying customers isn't going to sit well.
I see you've taught. ;D :'(
FQ
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No 4 year school should be teaching remedal classes. If they need it, they need to get thier ass to a jc. I started at a jc in hs, then a csu and finally a uc. I learned more at the jc then I did any other. What we really need is real trade/ tech school and a apprenticeship progarms. like there was not to long ago. not like the diploma mills we have of today. Real programs where after 4 years of training, your title of journyman( or what ever) actually ment something. You could do job x. I have for several years been thinking about start a trade school and getting old school tradesmen to actually teach people a trade. Its just so hard to compete with the diploma mills. why spend 4 or 5 years learning when you can have the same piece of paper in 18 months. won't mean the same, but no one seems to care these days.