The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: BAC on October 30, 2012, 04:20:40 PM
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I've got close neighbors and am afraid that 00 buck would go right through the walls and into the next house if I ever had to shoot my shotgun for home defense.
Would I be better off with bird shot or #4 buck? It seems to me the #4 would be the best of both worlds (24 fairly large pellets but less penetration). Thoughts?
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Seems like a good idea, if it were an apt #4 might sill be to much, but house to house wit space between it should be safe.
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I'm still loaded up with 7-1/2 birdshot. I'm currently residing in a mobile home with paper thin walls but 20 feet or more between homes.
This was at 25 yards and it didn't seem to slow the #4 down a bit. That's a bit troubling...
Your call!
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I have #4 buck loaded in my defensive 870. 00 buck is plain too much for the average tract home, especially if you have others in the home or close neighbors. For the distances inside a basic tract home, bird shot is still devastating as hell. That said, my 870 has a reload saddle filled with 00 buck and a couple of slugs, just in case.
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What's the largest birdshot you can get, then? You can tell I'm really familiar with shotguns and hunting, right?
I suppose the Garand would be overkill. I'm not Clint Eastwood, after all.
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I found #6 on sale at the LGS
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If you're REALLY worried about collateral damage, how about trap loads? I think they're 7-8 shot and they're low brass.... probably (Most likely) wouldn't penetrate an exterior wall. BUT... you run the risk of just pissing the bad guy off.
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Any difference with a 16 or 20 gauge. Less powder, fewer pellets...less penetration? After all, it's the bang and the blood that deters, especially on the face! Third shot is a slug for drug crazed Islamic terrorists.
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What's the largest birdshot you can get, then? You can tell I'm really familiar with shotguns and hunting, right?
I suppose the Garand would be overkill. I'm not Clint Eastwood, after all.
In case you don't know, BAC...being unfamiliar with shotguns, the bigger the birdshot number, the smaller the shot is.
Similar to shotgun gauges....as the gauge gets bigger, the bore diameter gets smaller.
I know how it works for the gauge but don't know if the birdshot is similar.
The gauge of a shotgun is the number of bore sized lead balls you can make from 1 pound of lead.
So for 12 gauge you can make 12 lead balls; for 20 gauge you get 20 lead balls.
The bigger the bore, the fewer balls.
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Found this:
(http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp244/bchiaravalle/shot_sizes.jpg)
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The diffrence between the guages is really just less pellets.
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Penetration tests are easy if your local range will allow them. However, most ranges are open to it if you explain what you are doing, why you are doing it, and work it out in advance so it can be discussed by the RO's.
Build a few mock ups of the wall sections you are concerned about: a pair of 2x4's with sheetrock on each side, or what every your wall consists of, and a piece of cardboard or light sheetrock another foot down range to show power left in any penetrating or splatter materials.
I would rather spend a hundred dollars on a test like this than fully take the word of anyone if I were trusting the lives of friends, neighbors or family to the results. Besides, it gives you a reason to go and shoot something up.
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The diffrence between the guages is really just less pellets.
Not necessarily. One ounce of load is one ounce of load regardless of gauge. When comparing any ammunition you need to look at the load data. In shotguns it is most commonly dram equivalent and load weight. I show this to people all the time when they want to go with different gauge guns to reduce recoil. I can show them how it is better to go with a 12 ga and lower power and load to reduce felt recoil. With a 12 ga you can have a gun that works for all areas of shotgun sports and hunting (trap to large geese). The additional action weight reduces felt recoil, and when you are shooting a sport where lowered power is advisable you can choose 12 ga ammunition that matches the 20ga. 12 ga gun shooting a 20 ga comparable round will have less felt recoil than the 20 ga.
How is that for a short response to a long comment ... Or the other way around ;)
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Penetration tests are easy if your local range will allow them. However, most ranges are open to it if you explain what you are doing, why you are doing it, and work it out in advance so it can be discussed by the RO's.
Build a few mock ups of the wall sections you are concerned about: a pair of 2x4's with sheetrock on each side, or what every your wall consists of, and a piece of cardboard or light sheetrock another foot down range to show power left in any penetrating or splatter materials.
I would rather spend a hundred dollars on a test like this than fully take the word of anyone if I were trusting the lives of friends, neighbors or family to the results. Besides, it gives you a reason to go and shoot something up.
Nothing but paper targets.
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Let's see if I understand this. Even though a 20 gauge shell contains less powder, proportionally it contains less shot so it hits with just as much force as a 12 gauge of equal length (comparing 3" vs 3" shotshells)? Now, if recoil is a factor of force and velocity, then why does my 20 gauge kick less than my 12? Tables show 3" shells of a 12 gauge exert nom 52 ft lbs of recoil energy vs 31 ft lbs for the 20 gauge. So, if we reduce the length of each to their lowest, it is difficult to conceive of a 12 gauge kicking less than a comparable 20 gauge.
All that notwithstanding, certainly understand the greater flexibility offered by the various shotshell configurations in 12 gauge. The irony is I have a 16 gauge pump! Won't be long before that 16 won't kick at all as shotshells disappear from local shelves.
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jrlobo,
You must be using your spe redding skills. I said that a 12 ga and a 20 ga with equal dram equivalent and shot load will be the same. Go to the gun shop and look at trap loads. You can actually find 12 ga loads that are lighter than 20 ga powerful trap loads.
Day two of Firearm Safety and Hunter's Education covers calibers, gauges, ammunition components, and how to read and select ammunition. Read the damn box!
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Nothing but paper targets.
Shop around. There are lots of ranges that will let you do this if you explain. The only range that has ever turned me down on something like this is an indoor range. Even a very busy range in Mesa, AZ allowed this, and we had many shooters gather as we did it.
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JRLobo, if you take a 1 ounce 12 and a 1 ounce 20 Load that are at say 1200 fps the 12 will recoil less for a couple reasons. One the 12 is usually built on a heavier frame gun which helps tame recoil, also being that the 1 ounce load in a 20 has a longer coluum of shot that causes more friction for the load to overcome which causes more recoil.
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I got a box of #4 shot (turkey loads) as I thought they might be a little better than #7 bird shot. No data on all this but I ain't standing in front of a 12 gauge with any load.
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I got a box of #4 shot (turkey loads) as I thought they might be a little better than #7 bird shot. No data on all this but I ain't standing in front of a 12 gauge with any load.
That is the key phrase that goes with any gun - caliber or gauge! Shoot what you got, shoot what you can handle, and practice with them!
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That is the key phrase that goes with any gun - caliber or gauge! Shoot what you got, shoot what you can handle, and practice with them!
ZACTLY!!!
A .22 in your hand is a MUCH more effective SD tool than a 12 gauge locked in the safe.
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ZACTLY!!!
A .22 in your hand is a MUCH more effective SD tool than a 12 gauge locked in the safe.
Heck, a big stick is better than a 12 ga locked in a safe!
Shillelagh
Google that...if it's good enuf for a crazy Mick, it's good enuf for anyone...since I'm half crazy Mick, it's allowed by Gaelic custom! Probably a law somewhere if anyone could read the fuggin Gaelic language!
;D
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Heck, a big stick is better than a 12 ga locked in a safe!
Shillelagh
Google that...if it's good enuf for a crazy Mick, it's good enuf for anyone...since I'm half crazy Mick, it's allowed by Gaelic custom! Probably a law somewhere if anyone could read the fuggin Gaelic language!
;D
The Blackthorn bush is found throughout Ireland and the British Isles. It has been prized for centuries as a material for premium walking sticks. The original Blackthorn sticks were 2 to 4 foot long Irish shillelaghs (the national weapon of rural Ireland). In expert hands the shillelagh was so fearsome that during the final occupation of Ireland, the English outlawed it. To get around the law, the Irish turned the shillelagh into a 3-foot walking stick. The English didn't want to appear unreasonable by outlawing walking sticks too, so the Irish kept their modified shillelaghs and the world gained a beautiful and functional walking stick known simply as the Blackthorn.
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I hate to be the killjoy here but perhaps if the "wild Micks" had used something a bit more potent than a Shillelagh it would not have taken them 600 years to defeat the Tower Muskets, Brown Bess's, Martini's, Lee Enfields and FAL's of the British Army.
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I hate to be the killjoy here but perhaps if the "wild Micks" had used something a bit more potent than a Shillelagh it would not have taken them 600 years to defeat the Tower Muskets, Brown Bess's, Martini's, Lee Enfields and FAL's of the British Army.
Did ya ever think we're a bit slow on the uptake?
;D
Erin go Bragh, Bogan!
Timothy SEAN
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Up your Republic !
The Irish have won every European or American war since Cromwell's day.
It was easy to do since they have fought on both sides of every European or American war since Cromwell's day. ;D
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As for bird shot, there are Ts and BBs, made for turkey and goose. Either should be good for across the room. Here's the conudrum. Both are made in steel (same with most #2s and #4s). This means less foot pounds. But, it also means greater dissapation of energy. OTOH, greater pentration as they're going faster, but less likelyhood of continuing to penetrate. Thoughts? ???
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As for bird shot, there are Ts and BBs, made for turkey and goose. Either should be good for across the room. Here's the conudrum. Both are made in steel (same with most #2s and #4s). This means less foot pounds. But, it also means greater dissapation of energy. OTOH, greater pentration as they're going faster, but less likelyhood of continuing to penetrate. Thoughts? ???
What ???
They come in lead!
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Not the ones you buy if you're a duck hunter as the things are illegal for waterfowl (and who buys #2s, #4s or BBs if not for waterfowl?). I've got a case load of each. So the question is, how will they do as SD rounds? I'm just curious as to whether anyone has any info.
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Steel ? Or Bismuth ?
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I checked ammoseek.com after FQ posted that, and all I found listed in those sizes was steel.
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m58,
Thanks for the education on shotgun recoil. But I was reading the tables and the comparison between 12 and 20 gauge recoil did reflect the 12 gauge being 1.5lbs heavier than the 20. Must be reading the wrong tables. I won't do that again (read my motto).
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Not the ones you buy if you're a duck hunter as the things are illegal for waterfowl (and who buys #2s, #4s or BBs if not for waterfowl?). I've got a case load of each. So the question is, how will they do as SD rounds? I'm just curious as to whether anyone has any info.
#1: They are also used by varmint hunters and upland bird hunters (#4 is not out of line for pheasant and turkey), and what about skunk, coon, badger, coyote ...
#2: I refer back to nobody wants to get hit in the chest with a sledgehammer or to have a leaky hole in their body!
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Steel ? Or Bismuth ?
The Bismuth are (at least were) about $3.00 per round. Its why I traded off a Webeley and Son's British Best box lock for a Merkel. The Webley wouldn't take steel, and the Merkel would. I got a bunch of ammo and a gortex fleece coat out of the deal, as well as few doodads. But if you shoot like I do at ducks and geese, $75 a box becomes too rich for your blood PDQ, no matter how sweet the gun is. I loved the thing, but I couldn't afford to feed it, and what good is a bird gun if you can't (litterally) afford to miss? Lead or steel? About $0.50-$0.75 per round. Bismuth? $3.00. If it comes to shooting bismuth at BGs, I'll have the money to pay them to leave quietly. ;D
I'm talking plain old plebian steel here. High V, low weight, little deformation, and lower down range footpounds. Thoughts?
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Not an answer to anybody's question, yet, I found this
http://www.sgammo.com/product/12-gauge/250-rd-case-12-gauge-rio-275-inch-high-power-4-buck-shot-21-pellet-ammo
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Food for thought:
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/26463/its-the-math-stupid/ (http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/26463/its-the-math-stupid/)
It’s the Math, Stupid
Find out why buckshot and birdshot are better than handgun, or even .223 Rem. loads for home defense.
By Kyle Wintersteen (RSS)
September 24, 2012
You’ve likely heard some blowhard rattle off the old cliché “man-stoppers start with four,” a suggestion that anything smaller than .40-caliber is insufficient for personal defense.
Funny thing is, it seems many of those fond of the phrase don’t even carry on a regular basis. If you encounter someone who’s intent on this game of “my gun’s bigger than your gun,” and you aren’t opposed to tricking the simple-minded, turn the tables by asking what his home-defense gun is chambered in. He’ll likely stick his chest out and say “.45 ACP.” That’s when you shake your head and scoff.
“What?” he asks. “What’s in your safe?”
“A shotgun loaded with double-aught buckshot,” you reply with a grin. “Man-stoppers start with 12.”
Then share with him the following information regarding the shotgun’s impressive external ballistics, and compare them with popular handgun and rifle calibers.
Shotgun vs. Handgun
Let’s start with the handgun chambering by which all others seemingly are judged—.45 ACP. Energy at the muzzle of a personal-defense .45 ACP round is usually about 400-450 ft.-lbs., depending on the weight and velocity of the bullet. At the high end, according to company literature, Hornady offers a .45 ACP +P load that sends a 200-grain bullet out of the barrel at a scorching 1,055 fps, resulting in muzzle energy of 494 ft.-lbs. In terms of raw energy, the .40 S&W actually stacks up fairly well to the .45 ACP, while the .357 Mag. exceeds it by a lot, averaging 540-600 ft.-lbs. Now, here’s where our loudmouthed adversary has a bit of a case: The average 9 mm packs 330-350 ft.-lbs., while the .38 Spl. averages just 230-250 ft.-lbs.
Does the 9 mm pack significantly less power than the .45? Perhaps, but it’s negligible when both are compared to a 12-gauge shotgun. A fairly standard personal-defense shotgun load throws nine 00-buckshot pellets at a muzzle velocity of 1,200 fps. Bigger, badder loads are out there, but this one is a good compromise between manageable recoil and maximum lethality. Each .33-caliber pellet weighs .123 ounces (53.8 grains) for a total payload of 1.107 ounces (484.3 grains). Given the pellets’ weight and velocity, we can determine their energy using the formula E = .5 x mass x velocity squared.
Starting with the overall payload of 1.107 ounces, we find an almost frighteningly high energy of 1,547 ft.-lbs. Mr. “Man-Stoppers Start with Four” can keep his 1911, because a single shotgun blast is comparable to four simultaneous rounds of .45 ACP.
The numbers are equally impressive for individual pellets. Each .33-caliber sphere possesses 172 ft.-lbs. of energy—meaning a single pellet strike hits harder than a .32 ACP handgun and not much softer than the popular .380 ACP (about 200 ft.-lbs.). That is awesome lethality, folks.
Shotgun vs. Rifle
There was a time when few considered AR-style rifles suitable for home defense. This was due more to prejudice than design flaw, but thoughts have changed, and recent loads such as Hornady TAP make the black rifle a far more viable home-defense option. In terms of raw energy, the shotgun wins, but the .223 Rem. does stack up pretty well—most loads hover around 1,300 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle. However, the shotgun separates itself from the .223 Rem. in its ability to dump that energy into a close-range target. Today’s rapid-expanding .223 Rem. rounds come close, but I have not seen a ballistic gelatin test in which it outperformed 00 buckshot. And ultimately it is the transfer of energy—whether a car striking a deer or an ounce of shot smacking a burglar’s chest—that kills.
There are plenty of rifle calibers that exceed the shotgun in terms of energy, though. A hot .270 Win. or .30-’06 Sprg. load, for instance, has nearly double the energy of our example shotgun configuration. Heavy rifles are plenty powerful, but can be impractical for close-range combat.
Thoughts on Smaller Pellets
So packed with energy is a 12-gauge buckshot load, some question whether it’s too much for their needs. There’s no such thing as stopping a threat too quickly, but keep this in mind: Buckshot really penetrates, and that is a concern if you have neighbors or children on the other side of the drywall. Folks in these scenarios frequently opt for No. 7 1⁄2 shot to reduce penetration while preserving close-range lethality. Is No. 7 1⁄2 shot sufficient? Let’s consider a 1-ounce load that achieves 1,200 fps. As it exits the muzzle, the overall payload packs a 1,398 ft.-lb. wallop. That, my friends, will stop a bad guy. However, proper patterning is all the more essential with birdshot in a self-defense scattergun, since the smaller pellets create a wider pattern than buckshot at equal distances. And you must center their breadth on the target, because while more pellets exit the gun (350 No. 7 1⁄2 pellets per ounce of shot), individual pellets carry less than 4 ft.-lbs. of energy—a glancing blow may not get the job done.
Still, at 10 yards, I’ll trust my life to birdshot over any handgun caliber—even one that starts with “four.”