The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: TAB on November 26, 2012, 05:30:31 PM
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Anyone have any great ideas? I am strickly at the brain storming stage of this. there are several levels of blindness. In this case it will be a group that is on the far end of blindness scale. This will be for more a sd aspects of shooting, not targets.( they already have sonic sights and targets for that) The way I see it, there are 3 basic parts to this. 1 safety 2 operational 3 use in sd. safety is going to be fairly easy, but with some twists. As they are strickly using thier hands. So guns with posative slide locks, swing out,cylinders, tilting barrels... Etc, would be a good thing. so would "safetys" . the safe direction is not much of a issue as most know which way they are facing. Operational, is going to be a challenge. As they will have to know where the gun is pointed at, not being able to see the target. Sonic sights would be good for training pointing, but clearly not for sd. SD shooting will by far be the hardest.
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Keeping the trigger finger along the side of the pistol until ready to fire while safe will also aid with the "where is it pointing issue, since it is pointing were ever the index finger is pointing.
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If they are that severely blind, I'd think target identification would be the hardest, if not impossible, obstacle?
I had learned that if a target is at arms reach....as in has both his hands on you and you are facing him, putting the butt of your gun on your hip will align with the low center of a target directly in front of you.
They need a Sleeve Gun. ... One that 'pops' into their hand.
You are a crafty guy, see about making one from a drawer slide.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ACCURIDE-Drawer-Slide-4KRW1?gclid=CIPVxp7u7bMCFegWMgodxwIAaA&cm_mmc=PPC:GooglePLA-_-Hardware-_-Supplies-_-4KRW1&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=4KRW1&ef_id=UKUotwAAX2DnzHaB:20121127001122:s
some straps, springs, holster and release mechanism and you might have a good weapon presentation for close range SD.
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I am sure that if it came to firing the weapon, it would be contact distance. That is more of an issue with gun selection. Some guns a small amount of presure on the muzzle will take it out of battery. You still can't just give a gun to some one and say, stick it in thier belly and pull the trigger. All kinds of bad things could happen. Clearly weapon retention is going to be very important. So is malfunction fixing as contact with autos ( and even wheel guns) can cuase them not to go bang or just once.
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I used to work with a guy and have known him for years who about 15 years ago began to go blind. He is legally blind.....totally in one eye, but not totally in the other, he can only make out minimum shapes, if the shape is back-lit......like a human with the sun, or really bright light, at their back.
He has always (even before he lost his vision) carried a Taurus Model 85 that I bobbed the hammer on. He still carries it, now with Glaser Safety Slugs, in his front pocket. His take is that he would only shoot if at contact distance.....as in if the attacker had their hands on him and he knew he could hit them. He figures the Glasers would minimize the potential for collateral damage.
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Was thinking about this last night and I remembered a story I heard about a round of golf challenge between a blind golfer and a sighted one....
The sighted guy was confident he would win easily so he let the blind fellow pick the time and place for the match...so the blind guy picked the local gold course at 2:00 AM on a moonless night.
Not sure what might work here, but anything that can be done to hinder the bad guys sight, be it day or night, will go a long way in equalizing the fight.
For your training, you might find a weapon with a laser useful. It can be use unloaded but still show where the shot placement would be. Should help give the blind folks a feel for when the weapon is 'indexed' properly.
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If he can't see the muzzle, or the bad guy how will he know if the laser is on target ?
Assuming he can see the red dot .
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If he can't see the muzzle, or the bad guy how will he know if the laser is on target ?
Assuming he can see the red dot .
Hardly. The trainer can see when it is aligned and tell him he got it right or which way to adjust.
Much safer than firing a shot into some type of target.
Again, I was thinking of the butt of the gun against the hip ...keeps the mechanism clear, pretty good retention position and if held correctly will index low on a close target.
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I think it's great that TAB helps the disabled, and I would be the last one to suggest infringing anyone's right to arms, but it seems like an awful high risk factor for accidents at some point in the future.
Then the Ca lawyer asks, "Well, what idiot suggested you get a gun for self defense ?"
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ANY lawyer worth his/her Bar card would question giving a blind person a pistol of any sort for self defense. Could it be defended, maybe. Would it be a case against just the person who actually pulled the trigger, hardly.
"Can you identify the person who attacked you? Are they in the courtroom?"
"Could you identify what was behind the person that attacked you when you shot them?"
"Did you fear for your life and why?"
"Did you take any classes to learn how to defend yourself with a gun? By whom? Are they certified to teach blind people? By whom?"
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Solus, your analogy of a blind golfer is off point. Blind people who happen to golf, always have a spotter! I've seen a few chronicled in magazines and on sports shows.
As to the rest, I'm with jnevis...not a chance in hell to avoid the worst case scenario.
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I like the laser idea, I had not thought about it that way. I also had an idea about having a highly focused weapon light. so that some could see where its pointed. In no part of the law does it say you have to be sighted to buy a gun. the blind are actually very good about knowing who is who.
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Every person has a right to self defense, including blind people. If the person has a seeing eye dog, can it be included in the training? The dog could be an asset in identifying friend from foe. Whimper/bark for friends and growl/snarl for foes. Plus the dog can point in the right direction, definitely looking at an intruder like any dog naturally would. Think about the possibilities using the seeing eye dog!
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In no part of the law does it say you have to be sighted to buy a gun. the blind are actually very good about knowing who is who.
May be true but are YOU willing to stake everything you have, including your freedom, on it? If someone you train on the side actually has to use a gun to defend themself and they go to court, YOU go to court too. If you don't have the credentials to show you are properly trained and training them to a curiculuum they will take you to the cleaners in civil court and probably at least charge you with criminal negligence. That is why the NRA Personal Protection courses have BIG BOLD WARNINGS to have a lawyer or local LE teach all the legal aspects of self defense, and they also recommend keeping a lawyer on retainer.
They may "know" who is who, but do they know who's BEHIND them?
"Do not shoot if you cannot verify the target or what is BEYOND it."
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Solus, your analogy of a blind golfer is off point. Blind people who happen to golf, always have a spotter! I've seen a few chronicled in magazines and on sports shows.
As to the rest, I'm with jnevis...not a chance in hell to avoid the worst case scenario.
You missed the point....the point was without the use of sight, the playing field was leveled. If you are able to temporarily 'blind' your assailant you will have the advantage because you have been operating without sight for some time where they will be confused and disoriented.
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May be true but are YOU willing to stake everything you have, including your freedom, on it? If someone you train on the side actually has to use a gun to defend themself and they go to court, YOU go to court too. If you don't have the credentials to show you are properly trained and training them to a curiculuum they will take you to the cleaners in civil court and probably at least charge you with criminal negligence. That is why the NRA Personal Protection courses have BIG BOLD WARNINGS to have a lawyer or local LE teach all the legal aspects of self defense, and they also recommend keeping a lawyer on retainer.
They may "know" who is who, but do they know who's BEHIND them?
"Do not shoot if you cannot verify the target or what is BEYOND it."
Frankly if someone had both hands around my throat and was trying to strangle me and I had a gun in my hand, I'd shoot regardless whether I knew who was behind the guy or not. There MAY be someone behind them who MAY get hit because my shot MAY exit the bad guy is weighed against I WILL be killed if I don't shoot.
You've heard it before.... I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Well technically, the 2nd Amendment doesn't give you the right to shoot someone, only to own and carry! The rest are assumed rights to defend ones self! The balance of what's not spelled out specifically is left to the States or the people as says the 10th Amendment and where state law comes into the equation. Here, you have to be able to see, CT you must be trained and live fire is required. You won't get around those laws...
I'm not arguing their right to own one, just their ability to use it without causing other problems.
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If I own a gun and would use it in self defense rather than be choked to death, I think it would show responsibility to train in a manner that would allow me to know when and how I could reliably use the weapon to defend myself with minimum risk to others within the limits of my disability.
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There was a case in NJ IIRC where a guy had a CCW then lost his sight so the state revoked his CCW.
He sued and won eventually.
I took Drivers Ed with a guy who was legally blind, and to this day I thank God I never had to ride with him.
Same thing here, more power to them, but I don't want to be any where around.
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I'm not arguing their right to own one, just their ability to use it without causing other problems.
Agreed....but, at the end of the day (speaking for the blind defender), if I'm alive, the other "problems" may be of secondary concern (extremely important, but secondary to survival).
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They are going to learn how to make point blank shots in a SD situation.
That is the intent...to become familiar with indexing and making such a shot.
I doubt the streets will run red with blood and that blind dudes will be shooting it out at the drop of a cane.
They will be learning the same things a sighted person would need to learn to deal with point blank shooting in a physical encounter. The sighted person will not be able to see their gun nor where it is pointed. The blind person who practices this technique and learns how to use it within their limits maybe be better prepared than the sighted person who has not.
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With the exceptions that sighted shooters learn to never point their muzzle at anything they don't intend to shoot, and ID their target and be aware of the background.
Since the blind are by definition incapable of the later they cannot avoid the former.
That leaves just 2 rules for them, all guns are always loaded and keep you booger hook off the bang switch.
And we've see how well that works even, (especially ? ) with Cops.
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With the exceptions that sighted shooters learn to never point their muzzle at anything they don't intend to shoot, and ID their target and be aware of the background.
Since the blind are by definition incapable of the later they cannot avoid the former.
That leaves just 2 rules for them, all guns are always loaded and keep you booger hook off the bang switch.
And we've see how well that works even, (especially ? ) with Cops.
Since they can't fight at more than contact distances, they can just keep the gun pointing down. Since they can't see what is in front of them they will have no instinct to point it where they are looking..so it is pointed in perhaps the safest direction possible.
And, again, since it will be at point blank range when being physically attacked, they can ID the target as the person at the other end of the arms that are attacking them.
They will not be doing room to room searches and with the their training to keep the gun pointed down unless in physical contact with an assailant, they will be far less likely to be sweeping living or non-living unintended targets...unless you count the floor.
Sure, they can panic and shoot at a noise, just like anyone can panic and shoot at sound or a movement. But, I'd not be surprised if their hearing is more discerning in the dark than our vision is in the dark.
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For someone who's not a professional trainer it's too much of a liability to train the blind to shoot.
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For someone who's not a professional trainer it's too much of a liability to train the blind to shoot.
I would wonder how much liability there is if you are not doing it as a profession....but just out practicing with friends.
If I coach someone on how to shoot who is epileptic and they go into seizure while holding the gun I had taught them to shoot and shot someone I don't think I would be liable even if I knew they were epileptic....of course that doesn't mean I wouldn't be sued but probably not charged.
As TAB said, they already shoot targets...he is just working out SD techniques with them.
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I have no information on this thought, but it just came to me.
I'd not be surprised if a blind person was a safer gun handler than a sighted person. A blind person, by nature and necessity, is going to be more cautious, aware and focused on their movements and actions than a sighted person.
Every step will be more thought out and deliberate.
With that I'd guess that they would handle a gun with the same deliberateness that they approach most other things.
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I would wonder how much liability there is if you are not doing it as a profession....but just out practicing with friends.
If I coach someone on how to shoot who is epileptic and they go into seizure while holding the gun I had taught them to shoot and shot someone I don't think I would be liable even if I knew they were epileptic....of course that doesn't mean I wouldn't be sued but probably not charged.
As TAB said, they already shoot targets...he is just working out SD techniques with them.
That's what I'm getting at. The blind person can justifiably shoot someone in a SD situation but TAB in this case is still liable to be sued for training them. Showing someone how to shoot safely and teaching self-defense techniques are two wholy seperate levels of liability in the courts. Yes, in the epileptic example you could be charged with criminal negligence because you knew of the condition prior to handing them a weapon. Would it go anywhere, probably not. If you then moved to more "advanced" techniques without some level of documented training and/or certification you are REALLY opening a door for a prosecutor. A professional instructor can fall back on a formalized lesson plan and put the responsibility to use what was taught back on the student. Joe Blow teaching his buddy what he learned at Gunsite can't. We did the same thing in EMS. If you deviated from the "script" you opened yourself up for liability. You couldn't just ask what you thought the right questions were.
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The liabilty of a sd shooting does not worry me one bit and I always worry about liabilty. I will not be going into extreme depths of sd, thats not some thing I do with any one other then my wife. the fact is, people that are disabled( which a good number of the blind are not, they just can't see) are victimized at a higher rate then those that are not. all I want out of this, is to give a option to a group of people that don't currently have it.