The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Shotguns => Topic started by: billt on December 11, 2012, 10:44:25 AM
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I found these videos to be really interesting. I've done similar "tests" myself, and I've never understood why people think a Trap load, (1-1/8th ounce of #8 shot), would not be effective in a home defense scenario. A round of this stuff taken to the chest is going to stop a person, period. Remember, we're talking under 20 ft. here. I'm starting to think people who argue you "need" 00 Buck in a 12 bore to be lethal, are either repeating Internet hearsay, or have never fired a 12 Ga. much, if at all.
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It has the added safety feature that individual pellets are less likely to go through your walls with enough power to injure bystanders or neighbors.
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We have a 20 ga with birdshot hanging over the door in the walk-in closet. If you're there and you need a gun your range is going to be under 10 feet. Should be effective.
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I agree with both of you. I think there is way too much emphasis put on 00 buck and slugs for home defense. The people who preach this, are usually the same ones who never mention over penetration. I just can't imagine a fist size pattern of #8's screaming at someones chest at 1,200 FPS not being effective.
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Tom Gresham - Gun Talk - is a proponent of bird shot at across the room distances for indoor home defense.
In last few months the topic has come us and over and over and he will talk about the tight pattern in the 12 - 25 ' range and is good for its intent and the point already made above that it does not over penetrate inside house/walls and does not have the tendency to leave a buildings exterior walls. But if it did would not have a lot of energy left.
What I'm not too sure about is use #2 or #4 - I think I would tend to error on the larger #2 if I were to use birdshot.
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The prob with those is they are generally steel, not lead.
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I think the reaction to the birdshot strategy is all about being attached to the FBI stopping power model. You see it all the time is science and engineering, people struggle to build a mental model of what is happening and then the model becomes more important than the real experience. Most of us have never shot another person especially if you limit it to handguns. (including me thank god) We naturally hope to extract as much knowledge from those who have or at least have a model to test so that we feel like things are more organized. Throw in marketing hype and subtle changes that are usually improvements and pretty soon it starts to feel like "keeping the faith" is very important.
People collapse thinking about what a LEO should carry and what I have for home defense. I don't think the FBI should do entries with birdshot but given the legal issues and concern for my neighbors I think it is a valid option for my HD.
The more I have read about stopping power the clearer it is that in the end it is shot placement that stops fights. I have a lot of respect for MB and his commitment the the ideas of largest caliber you can get repeated good hits with. Since I don't get to carry here in CA, my thinking is mostly focused on home defense and options for personal defense when TSHTF.
I have settled on #4 shot as my first line HD round for my 12 gauge. I have shot a lot of trap over the years and am fine with being able to deliver the shots. Qt least until I can buy an Abrams tank :)
Joe
PS why is steel bad, lead good if we have already accepted birdshot vs. buck? Obviously lead is more dense etc. but 1/2 MVsquared = kinetic energy does not care about density.
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I have a teen in another bedroom down the hall, and my home is fairly small at under 2,000 square feet. I also have neighbors just 30 feet away. So I loaded my bedroom 870 like this...
1. First 2 in the tube are #6 birdshot (Federal Hevi-shot tungsten).
2. Remaining 4 in the tube are #4 buckshot.
3. The side saddle has 4 00 buckshot and 2 slugs.
Knowing how devastating birdshot is at close interior distances, something would have gone terribly wrong if it even escalates to my need for the #4 buck. The loads in the side saddle are there if all bets are off.
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I think the reaction to the birdshot strategy is all about being attached to the FBI stopping power model. You see it all the time is science and engineering, people struggle to build a mental model of what is happening and then the model becomes more important than the real experience. Most of us have never shot another person especially if you limit it to handguns. (including me thank god) We naturally hope to extract as much knowledge from those who have or at least have a model to test so that we feel like things are more organized. Throw in marketing hype and subtle changes that are usually improvements and pretty soon it starts to feel like "keeping the faith" is very important.
PS why is steel bad, lead good if we have already accepted birdshot vs. buck? Obviously lead is more dense etc. but 1/2 MVsquared = kinetic energy does not care about density.
Like humans cause global warming ?
The problem with lead versus steel shot is the hardness of the lead is believed by some to be harmful to barrels.
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It's just an audio segment of Tom Gresham's nationally syndicated radio show "Gun Talk". He takes a call about birdshot for home defense. The actual conversation about the birdshot loading is at 3:00. He takes another call from an Alaska hunter and taxidermist at 7:45, who has some really interesting things to say about bird shot on large bears at ranges up to and including 30 feet.
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I have a teen in another bedroom down the hall, and my home is fairly small at under 2,000 square feet. I also have neighbors just 30 feet away. So I loaded my bedroom 870 like this...
1. First 2 in the tube are #6 birdshot (Federal Hevi-shot tungsten).
2. Remaining 4 in the tube are #4 buckshot.
3. The side saddle has 4 00 buckshot and 2 slugs.
Knowing how devastating birdshot is at close interior distances, something would have gone terribly wrong if it even escalates to my need for the #4 buck. The loads in the side saddle are there if all bets are off.
Just to clarify my own personal opinion on this timeless debate... IMO, there is no single "best" load as a generic recommendation, because it will always depend on the person's defensive scenario. Running #6 birdshot, with loads of increased power for follow-ups, is best for my suburban scenario. If I lived in a rural homestead with no neighbors and no other family members in other bedrooms, I'd be running 00 buck or slugs. If I was in a urban high-rise apartment, I'd stick to solely to #6-8 birdshot. Yes, 00 buck or slugs will always win the fight, but folks always seem to ignore the consequences of collateral damage in this debate. For me, I will always go with the highest power loads that I can get away with without overt risk to a nearby loved one or a neighbor.
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First time I heard 00 Buck trumpeted was in a book by Kurt Saxon called The Poor Man's James Bond.
His recommendation for a shotgun was a pump, a Winchester 12, IIRC, because it did not require a trigger pull after the pump, it fired when the slide was pushed forward.
He also recommended the maximum barrel length and full choke an what ever shotgun you chose. The maximum barrel length was to be able to accommodate the maximum length magazine extension.
He recommended 00 Buck because it was deadly, but more so because he claimed he could reliably put 3 of the pellets in a 10" (or maybe 12") circle at 100yds.
He also recommended the shotgun be held on it's side so that recoil would cause it to move laterally... "Clear a street as fast you can work the action."
Saxon sold an Image more than he did practical knowledge...but he was often a humorous read.
This was around 1970 or so.
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Thing to remember about "The Poorman's James Bond" was that it had nothing to do with Home defense, it was aimed at DIY guerrilla warfare, that's why he covers "silencers" home made submachine guns, and included a reprint of a British manual on fighting in cities.
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WE KEEP BIRDSHOT IN OUR SHOTGUNS AT HOME. IT IS VERY EFFECTIVE ON 2 OR 4 LEGGED INTRUDERS. OUR SHIHTSU WAS ATTACKED & KILLED BY 2 PIT BULLS WHO GOT INTO OUR YARD WHEN ONE OF THE KIDS LEFT THE GATE OPEN WHEN THEY LEFT. I HEARD THE NOISE WHEN I GOT OUT OF THE SHOWER & GRABBED MY SINGLE- SHOT 12 GA. I OPEN THE DOOR & ONE OF PIT BULLS CAME AT ME. I DROPPED IT WITH ONE BLAST & THE OTHER ONE TOOK OFF RUNNING FASTER THEN ANY DOG I'VE EVER SEEN. ;D THE SAD PART WAS I HAD TO TELL MY DAUGHTER ABOUT HER PUP WHEN SHE CAME HOME FROM SCHOOL THAT DAY. :'( :'(
SO BIRDSHOT IS VERY EFFECTIVE AT LEAST UP TO 20 TO 30 FEET.
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Seems the where you live rule is most important. I live in a rural setting, nearest neighbor through the woods and 1/4 mile away. We live in a brick house, just me and my wife and her two jappy little dogs. I've never had a dog in the house before 4 ears ago but have to admit nothing happens without alerting them. I have a pump 18" barrel open choke 12 ga as primary in our bedroom with 3" magnum #4 as the first two, then three 00. Keep an AR in my reloading room and office with first ten rounds frangible then 20 rounds steel tip penetrator. Experimented with the steel tips on an old brick wall once and they don't initially shoot through modern brick though they will break a hole eventually. They can find their way through the mortar in places. If I could get to the AR 5.56, it would be my first choice if things progressed to the hide and return fire stage. I keep various handguns stashed in hidy spots around our house. If neighbors come by for a visit, everything goes in the gun safe except the stuff in our master bedroom with the door closed. If kids are involved, everything goes in the gun safe. Just not worth it with neighbor's kids involved. Mine were indoctrinated with gun safety starting with a BB gun at age 7. They had no "pretend" guns. The mystery and reality of firearms wasn't a problem with them. So many kids could be saved if they were taught gun safety.
Trying to get any law enforcement here under 20 minutes is a pipe dream.
I'd have to have a mighty good reason to live in a place like California. Interesting a firearm manufacturer operates there (forget which one). I guess as long as there is a buck involved, the politicians hold there nose. The big city politics have ruined the place.
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We have a 20 ga with birdshot hanging over the door in the walk-in closet. If you're there and you need a gun your range is going to be under 10 feet. Should be effective.
especially in multiple doeses as needed!
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I used to recommend this myself but changed my mind. I recommend #4 or higher for HD, yes #7 or #8 will give anybody a hell of a hickey but a really big guy can be a problem as the pellets often won't give adequate penetration to kill the SOB and let him keep coming. I work more on tactics and accuracy to avoid blasting the neighbors instead of reducing my effectiveness, but your mileage may very.
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Every one will have a different opinion based on their own situation .
I have neighbors within 5 yards to South, and West, 10 yards to the East .
North is about 25 yards, but that is a blank wall with my bed against it, if I have to shoot it will be one of the other directions no matter what I'm doing when the SHTF .
With a Max engagement range of 2 yards lighter shot is better for me.
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always thought 2 - 3 doses of 1 1/4 oz of whatever followed by smacking the SOB with the shotgun like a bat might ought to stop most fellows
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I have posted this on other threads, but I will do so again since it came up:
Having professional experience with this topic I will testify to the fact that the use of either 20 ga or 12 ga trap loads at interior home defense ranges will result in the use of the following products:
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/577563_zps9aca30b5.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/fliudIcon_zpsd7043c10.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/83348_zpse624d4e9.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/superdrylock_zpsf543a23d.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/fullzipunionalls_zpsf7ba59ce.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/Casket550Pix_zpsfe5f310d.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/Snow002.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/IMG00014.jpg)
Questions?
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(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/Snow002.jpg)
Questions?
Just one.
Is that your shadow in the pic?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Just one.
Is that your shadow in the pic?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Are we going to have six more weeks of winter?
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Are we going to have six more weeks of winter?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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And name on the sign!
That was more than a few years ago.