The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: steel4u on April 29, 2008, 07:13:40 PM

Title: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: steel4u on April 29, 2008, 07:13:40 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=segtXBwglj4
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: JohnJacobH on April 29, 2008, 07:44:47 PM
I heard some tactical training course included this type exercise for their students and aroused some controversy in the training world.

Maybe it was called "the Snake Exercise?" as taught by Hackathorn? (Really, it is just a guess and not intended to tar anyone with any brush pro or con)

Anyway, if you get among a group of people who disapprove of this type training keep your mouth shut. They tend to be passionate about their views.



Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: Pathfinder on April 29, 2008, 07:59:41 PM
I heard some tactical training course included this type exercise for their students and aroused some controversy in the training world.

Maybe it was called "the Snake Exercise?" as taught by Hackathorn? (Really, it is just a guess and not intended to tar anyone with any brush pro or con)

Anyway, if you get among a group of people who disapprove of this type training keep your mouth shut. They tend to be passionate about their views.

Ooooooookkkaaaaayyyyy - I have no clue what JohnJacobH's comments mean. I know, I am way out of it on occasion.

This seems to be a form of aggressive suppressive fire. Leaves the shooters exposed as they move from cover to cover. But I can envision instances where this would be appropriate, especially if up against an untrained or timid foe. Reminiscent of the fight scene in the movie Heat, too, and yes, I know, that is Hollyweird.

So what am I missing?

Besides, cool video, cool ad for the Masada. Maybe that's the sole point?
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: JohnJacobH on April 29, 2008, 08:07:25 PM
Ooooooookkkaaaaayyyyy - I have no clue what JohnJacobH's comments mean. I know, I am way out of it on occasion.

This seems to be a form of aggressive suppressive fire. Leaves the shooters exposed as they move from cover to cover. But I can envision instances where this would be appropriate, especially if up against an untrained or timid foe. Reminiscent of the fight scene in the movie Heat, too, and yes, I know, that is Hollyweird.

So what am I missing?

Besides, cool video, cool ad for the Masada. Maybe that's the sole point?

Well, if it is the exercise I think it is, you have students in motion  down range of each other with hot weapons firing. I understand the tactical value, interwoven magazine reloads and etc.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: JohnJacobH on April 29, 2008, 08:27:46 PM
Ooooooookkkaaaaayyyyy - I have no clue what JohnJacobH's comments mean. I know, I am way out of it on occasion.



Okay, here is the actual Snake Drill as described by a student. Not really the same thing at all.

http://greent.com/40Page/reviews/schools/hack.htm
 (http://greent.com/40Page/reviews/schools/hack.htm)

But it does include students more or less downrange of  hot weapons and live fire.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: Pathfinder on April 29, 2008, 08:39:22 PM
Well, if it is the exercise I think it is, you have students in motion  down range of each other with hot weapons firing. I understand the tactical value, interwoven magazine reloads and etc.

I thought of that too, but I noticed they were moving obliquely not directly in front.

Kids, don't try this at home - we are professional gunfighters.

I can still see how this would be of value - practice makes perfect, and the two guys were in constant communication with each other.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: steel4u on April 29, 2008, 09:04:33 PM
This drill looks to be small unit tactics with barricades and lateral movement.  Although they are down range from eachother, it appears they are moving diagonally away from barricade to barricade, puting the shooters about 20 or more feet apart (lateraly).
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: Dougdubya on April 29, 2008, 10:08:24 PM
They also operated without sweeping each other with the muzzle.  The guy advancing fired on the move, emptying out his magazine between areas of cover, while the other guy seemed to hold off.

Frankly, that kind of hot training is what's needed because that's the kind of moves that our boys need to perfect before they hit the sandbox.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 30, 2008, 02:29:34 AM
They also operated without sweeping each other with the muzzle.  The guy advancing fired on the move, emptying out his magazine between areas of cover, while the other guy seemed to hold off.

Frankly, that kind of hot training is what's needed because that's the kind of moves that our boys need to perfect before they hit the sandbox.

I agree, Fire and movement is only safe if the entire team is HIGHLY trained and practiced. At the out set of the Ruby Ridge stand off, 2 US marshals were utilizing fire and movement after their surveillance was discovered and they were fired on by Randy Weavers son for killing his dog, one Marshal wound up dead and based on forensic evidence, 9 mm "Police only" round recovered from his body, bullet hole through his Back pack into his body, It was obvious that he crossed in front of his partner while he was firing, An unfortunate example of the importance of continuous training.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: USSA-1 on April 30, 2008, 07:58:11 AM
It's a good example of a two man team working and communicating.  Don't worry too much about the application as it's more of a PSD/contractor/protection type scenario.  I would just admire the skills, both shooting and manipulating the weapons and the communication. 

It's a good demo video for showcasing some of their 2-man and/or team training.

I especially like the subtle rain in the opening sequence.  Good stuff.

Erik
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: hodman on April 30, 2008, 11:32:53 AM
I ran a drill similar to this with Earnest Langdon but with handguns. It is not for a new shooter but has its place. Team training is important and a confidence builder.
It can be a big issue to some shooters and I respect that but it is valid training.



Jon
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: ericire12 on April 30, 2008, 03:31:21 PM
Wow!
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: MagpulDynamics on April 30, 2008, 04:34:55 PM
First off... thanks to whom ever posted the video...

Second.. you guys are getting to wrapped around the application like Eric Lund was saying... this drill is NOT a tactics drill!  it is a fundamental drill... building on weapons manipulation, team movements, positions, communications, tactical telepathic's, and team work to keep guns in play.
this is one of the many drills we would run in an advance Carbine course...Tactics is another course all by itself.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: Pathfinder on April 30, 2008, 07:09:41 PM
First off... thanks to whom ever posted the video...

Second.. you guys are getting to wrapped around the application like Eric Lund was saying... this drill is NOT a tactics drill!  it is a fundamental drill... building on weapons manipulation, team movements, positions, communications, tactical telepathic's, and team work to keep guns in play.
this is one of the many drills we would run in an advance Carbine course...Tactics is another course all by itself.


OK, so who is we, Kemosabe?
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: Ksail101 on April 30, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
That was an awesome video. They did a great job with the shoot and skoot. I don't know why anyone would be mad about it. If you ever have done CQB live fire training you move in a team with guys infront of you and behind. And when you have to do it in real life it is a whole lot worse cause everyone is on edge. Getting shot in the back by your team member while he is trying to follow a guy running away and shooting is a real possiblity that is why you train over and over with guys in front and back so your field of fire will be just automatic and you know when to stop. But in real life you just have to be ready cause sometimes all that training goes right out the window and you have to move in instict and a will to survive. I even watched the vid a couple of times and niether guy swept the others head or body. You need to move in a fire fight and you can only go one way, thats how you do it. You dont want to sit on a street with a dead end with a wall behind you. For some reason bullets like walls and trees.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: MagpulDynamics on April 30, 2008, 09:10:07 PM
OK, so who is we, Kemosabe?

?  Im not tracking with you Hoss... whats your question?
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 01, 2008, 02:20:15 AM
?  Im not tracking with you Hoss... whats your question?

I don't think he noticed your signiture block where it says you are President of Magpul Dynamics LLC. Which leads ME to believe that by "we" you meant the whole Magpul organization.  ;D
Welcome aboard.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: Pathfinder on May 01, 2008, 05:44:30 AM
?  Im not tracking with you Hoss... whats your question?

You had said "this is one of the many drills we would run in an advance Carbine course...Tactics is another course all by itself."

I was wondering if you run a shooting school, or playing off your site name if you are actually part of Magpul Dynamics.

Update: NO, as I said before, you cannot let me post when I am tired or just awake - which are the only 2 times I get to post cuz of work. Thanks to Tom I finally looked at the signature block and figured out what was going on. Anyhow, as Emily Letella would say - Never mind!

Welcome to the site, Travis. Any truth to the rumor you're giving away free Masadas to those of us who joined this site early on?   ;D
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: leatherman92 on May 01, 2008, 07:09:30 AM
wow  :)
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: JohnJacobH on May 01, 2008, 07:40:32 AM
At the out set of the Ruby Ridge stand off, 2 US marshals were utilizing fire and movement after their surveillance was discovered and they were fired on by Randy Weavers son for killing his dog, one Marshal wound up dead and based on forensic evidence, 9 mm "Police only" round recovered from his body, bullet hole through his Back pack into his body, It was obvious that he crossed in front of his partner while he was firing, An unfortunate example of the importance of continuous training.

If I recall, those boys were using suppressed weapons and wearing black  Ninja gear including nomex ski masks in heavy undergrowth. It is a miracle the whole team did not shoot each other and blame the Weavers.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 01, 2008, 11:17:56 AM
If I recall, those boys were using suppressed weapons and wearing black  Ninja gear including nomex ski masks in heavy undergrowth. It is a miracle the whole team did not shoot each other and blame the Weavers.

during the original confrontation there were only 2 Marshals involved and the survivor DID try to blame Weaver and his son, but he was the only survivor firing a 9 MM.
Title: Re: How The Pros Do It- Very Cool
Post by: MagpulDynamics on May 01, 2008, 09:16:12 PM
You had said "this is one of the many drills we would run in an advance Carbine course...Tactics is another course all by itself."

I was wondering if you run a shooting school, or playing off your site name if you are actually part of Magpul Dynamics.

Update: NO, as I said before, you cannot let me post when I am tired or just awake - which are the only 2 times I get to post cuz of work. Thanks to Tom I finally looked at the signature block and figured out what was going on. Anyhow, as Emily Letella would say - Never mind!

Welcome to the site, Travis. Any truth to the rumor you're giving away free Masadas to those of us who joined this site early on?   ;D

No Problem,  I figured it was something along those lines....

As for the free ACR's?  haha thats not my department brother, have to talk to Dr Drake or the boss man about that one!