The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on January 08, 2013, 12:10:43 PM
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I have noticed a few training groups have begun a trend in reducing class costs as well as round counts in each class in order to help out during these tight financial times.
I applaud this effort by these guys.
Now is a good time, if funds allow, for those seeking professional training to seek out some opportunities......there may be others following this trend near you.
Magpul and Rob Pincus (of ICE Training) are at least two that I know of that have announced reduced fees, round counts, and Magpul has even started a .22lr course.
From Magpul today:
News from Magpul Dynamics
http://www.magpuldynamics.com/
With the state of the industry right now, the Dynamics crew is making some accomodations....
Magpul Dynamics Pricing and Ammunition Requirement Update
In an effort to make training more accessible in these times of increased prices and reduced availability, Magpul Dynamics has updated their pricing structure, round counts, and acceptable calibers for the 2013 training year.
Effective immediately, all three-day classes are reduced to $600 per student, and two-day classes are reduced to $450 per student. In addition, the curriculum has been revised for all pistol/carbine courses based on the changes occurring over the past year to allow for maximum training value at a slightly reduced round count.
Also, we are temporarily allowing the use of pistol-caliber carbines and 22LR AR-15 pattern training rifles in the carbine classes. Please understand that there are many drawbacks to training with 22LR as opposed to normal rifle platforms, but significant training value will still exist. We expect a full return to allowing rifle-caliber rounds only in the future as the ammunition supply catches up with current demand and ammunition prices return to a reasonable level.
However, we understand the financial burden placed on students with the current state of the economy and the rapid rise in retail pricing in the ammunition industry.
We firmly believe in the value of quality firearms training and are committed to providing quality products and services at a fair price.
Duane, Steve, Jon, and Caylen
https://www.facebook.com/magpul
From Pincus:
http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article002599250.cfm?x=blV46L5,bchK9C2L,w
Effective Immediately, I.C.E. Training Company is reducing the round count of all 2013 courses.
In response to student concerns about the cost and availability of ammunition, especially for the busy Spring Training Season, Rob Pincus has decided to reduce round counts for all live fire range courses by up to 25%. “We’ve down this before,” says Rob,” in response to requests during the 2009 ammunition shortages. There is no reduction in the quality of the course.. in fact, since repetition over extended time is what really ingrains physical skills, it might even be a better course with a little more lecture and extended Q&A.”
While students always value putting “rounds down range” during any live fire course, and a certain amount of shooting is vital to skill learning and assuring that students understand what and how to train, it is not necessary to shoot over 1000 rounds in two days to make training valuable.
Minimum round counts for two day Combat Focus® Shooting courses will now be 800 rounds. Other courses, includind the popular Combat Focus® Carbine classes, will have their round counts reduced as well.
In addition to the reduced round counts, tuition prices are being lowered by $50 for 2013 as well, to help offset the rapidly rising cost of ammunition.
For more information, visit the I.C.E. Training Company Course List and click on the course you are interested in!
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Everyone is in business to make the best living they can, so I don't blame anyone for selling their product for what the market will bear.
They make the decision whether a higher selling price or more volume at a lower price is in their best interest...
But...I have this observation.
Either the reduced rounds requirement results in a lesser degree of training or the original round count requirement was inflated.
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Everyone is in business to make the best living they can, so I don't blame anyone for selling their product for what the market will bear.
They make the decision whether a higher selling price or more volume at a lower price is in their best interest...
But...I have this observation.
Either the reduced rounds requirement results in a lesser degree of training or the original round count requirement was inflated.
There is a third possibility, The previous round count was geared to Military SpecOps and police SWAT needs while the lower round count is more geared for the civilians that make up the majority of the classes and are the ones most likely to be on a tight budget .
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From the Pincus memo:
“We’ve down this before,” says Rob, "in response to requests during the 2009 ammunition shortages. There is no reduction in the quality of the course.... in fact, since repetition over extended time is what really ingrains physical skills, it might even be a better course with a little more lecture and extended Q&A.”
While students always value putting “rounds down range” during any live fire course, and a certain amount of shooting is vital to skill learning and assuring that students understand what and how to train, it is not necessary to shoot over 1000 rounds in two days to make training valuable.
I tend to lean towards what Tom said also.
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I know that even our local LEO classes have cut down on the round count due to tight budgets.
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Good on them.
When it comes to 'rounds down range' at a class, the numbers some classes say to bring are insane.
From I.C.E.: since repetition over extended time is what really ingrains physical skills
If I haven't got some solid skills to work on by the time I've fired off 5 - 50rnd boxes of shells in one gun, then your training isn't for me.
That's over 31 mag changes for the 1911 shooter and just over 19 for G23 shooters.
A cub bear with a football should have it figured out by then.
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I read somewhere that it takes 7 repetitions of a lesson to ingrain it into a students brain long enough for him/her to actually try practicing it.
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I read somewhere that it takes 7 repetitions of a lesson to ingrain it into a students brain long enough for him/her to actually try practicing it.
Maybe, but that doesn't take into account a persons DRIVE to learn and become proficient at a new skill. I learned a ton of stuff at Gunsite. We were moving so fast that I only was able to do many of the drills 1 or 2 times. Since I got home I have been practicing Dry and Live everyday. It is because I have the drive to perfect these skills.
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Maybe, but that doesn't take into account a persons DRIVE to learn and become proficient at a new skill. I learned a ton of stuff at Gunsite. We were moving so fast that I only was able to do many of the drills 1 or 2 times. Since I got home I have been practicing Dry and Live everyday. It is because I have the drive to perfect these skills.
True, but unless you took notes or got some kind of written information I'll bet that you have forgotten some of it.
Of course it also depends on how well a person has developed their memory as well .
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Took PAGES of notes, and all of the drills are available on YOUTUBE. So luckily I DO have acess to the information covered.
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Took PAGES of notes, and all of the drills are available on YOUTUBE. So luckily I DO have acess to the information covered.
What class and which drills?
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What class and which drills?
Carbine Class with Kyle Lamb.
Go to Youtube, Look up the following:
KYle Lamb or VTAC
2-2-2 (good for evaluation)
Zig Zag (kicked my butt)
Highsmith (My personal favorite)
1-5 (Don't use too much)
1/2 & 1/2 (must perform PERFECT to score well)
Stretch Kneeling (Rule #1 Cardio)
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Took PAGES of notes, and all of the drills are available on YOUTUBE. So luckily I DO have acess to the information covered.
You were supposed to send the to the slicker that didn't write everything down. ;)
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I'll email you copies of my notes, however most of my notes were notes to myself on how bad I screwed up and how to fix it. ::)
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Kudos to Rob and Magpul. The quality of instruction at these places is of the highest order and it matters more about quality training rather than quantity. Muchof my practice and training costs nothing as I use and advocate dry practice as much as possible.
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One thing I tell students to do( at NO cost) is dry practice. A big part of the act of engaging a threat is draw and trigger control.. Don't cost a dime to dry practice those things at home and it WILL improve your time on the range when you do fire some rounds.
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One thing I tell students to do( at NO cost) is dry practice. A big part of the act of engaging a threat is draw and trigger control.. Don't cost a dime to dry practice those things at home and it WILL improve your time on the range when you do fire some rounds.
I picked up two books a month ago. Brian Enos' book and Steve Anderson's "Refinement and Repetition: Dry fire Drills for Dramatic Improvement". After missing my USPSA match in February I went into March's match with some excitement since I had been doing a lot of dry-fire practice. I shot too fast, or not accurate enough, but I had the most fun since my first USPSA match. HUGE difference. Now I just need to find the time to do it more often.
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Keep at it Magoo. It will get there!