The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Jkwas on January 23, 2013, 08:17:39 PM
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A friend that works at a gun shop told me that glock has stopped shipping frames to the US until it knows what will happen with any import regulations. Do you think this is B.S. or has anyone heard any similar stories?
Right now, if you can find a glock, it's going for $200 more than they were a month ago in our area. Craziness! :o
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Glock is 2 years behind and having a hard time keeping up with demand is what I am being told.
Richard
PS: The panic has not hit handguns in this area YET!
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One of my local stores has had a number of Glocks on hand for a wile. I picked up a second Model 19 about two weeks ago. I really didn't need it but it was the only way to get more magazines. ;D
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Cabela's by me is out of everything and anything Glock related. Not a pistol or magazine to be had. Their entire pistol case is around 2/3rds empty. All that's avaliable are high end 1911's and revolvers. No tactical firearms what so ever are on the racks. The firearms industry is seeing sales, that up until now were unprecedented in the industry. You're going to be hearing a lot of B.S. as to why guns are not avaliable until things settle down. If Feinstein's bill goes down to defeat, which it is all but certain to, and the folks start running out of money and credit that is fueling their impulse spending on this stuff, this will all start to die down. It took around 10 months for things to get back to normal after Hussein was coronated back in 2008. I'm guessing this will be much the same or less. Especially after 4 years of a horrible economy.
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Actually I'm surprised Glock isn't making frames in the US.
I understand it might not be a good business decision for whatever reasons, but it would be possible.
The slides and other parts would not be possible without losing the Tenifer treatment.
Might also work to get around some of the import limitations too.
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I've read from others that the Tenifer treatment can't get past the EPA.
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The only supply issue with Glocks are that 9mm models are flying off the shelves so fast we can't keep up. Also, it isn't just Glock. All models of 9mm are difficult to keep in stock. For most of this past week we have had no 9mm Glocks, M&Ps, Sprinfields, Ruger, Sigs, Kahrs, FN pistols and the like. The only 9mm in stock were a few from Taurus and a couple of Walther PPS units.
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I've read from others that the Tenifer treatment can't get past the EPA.
Exactly.
But with the frame being the "official" firearm, if it was manufactured here they would not be "imports"
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I have read four articles on the process. Some were based on Tenifer, and some were the process and Tenifer named later. They all agree that it is the process that is not allowed in the US because it does not meet EPA standards. However, treated products do not hold the hazardous components and may be imported.
So, it is BS that Tenifer is the reason they are not coming in.
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So, it is BS that Tenifer is the reason they are not coming in.
It has to be. Tennifer is applied to the slides, not the frames. I believe it's the slides they ship in from Austria. The frames are built, (molded), in Smyrna, Georgia.
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Good point!
Color me exposed as a non-Glockie :-[
I forgot the poly product when I read and searched.
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I have read four articles on the process. Some were based on Tenifer, and some were the process and Tenifer named later. They all agree that it is the process that is not allowed in the US because it does not meet EPA standards. However, treated products do not hold the hazardous components and may be imported.
So, it is BS that Tenifer is the reason they are not coming in.
No one said Tenifer was the reason they weren't coming in, which, according to Watchman they are.
But your own post explains that Tenifer is the reason they are not entirely US made.
Which was the question I was answering if you go back and look.
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No one said Tenifer was the reason they weren't coming in, which, according to Watchman they are.
But your own post explains that Tenifer is the reason they are not entirely US made.
Which was the question I was answering if you go back and look.
Additionally, I mentioned it because I was surprised Glock was importing frames that could be manufactured in the US..as opposed to other parts which are Tenifer treated.
Billt pointed out that the frames are made here in Ga., something I did not know.
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While we are talking Glocks, ( ;D ) I have seen several 3rd party frames come and go...
One of particular interest was a frame that could be had in aluminum or Titanium for a Glock 21. This frame had the external dimensions of a 1911. They are no longer advertised...so maybe having the magazine cock-eyed in the grip didn't work out.
Non Tenifer slides and parts can be found over at http://www.lonewolfdist.com/ along with frames if you want to roll your own.
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Billt pointed out that the frames are made here in Ga., something I did not know.
There are supposed all American made Glock pistols as well. They are not treated with Tennifer, but rather undergo some type of Melonite treatment, which is EPA approved. Note they have "USA" stamped on the slide. I don't know how prevalent these pistols are, but I have never seen one. And I've seen a lot of Glocks. The thread I linked is over 2 years old.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69337
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I have seen a number of Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glock 22s with both Austrian and US made frames. The current slide & barrel treatment is a nitride finish. Leaves the surface the same hardness and corrosion resistance as Tennifer.
Being back-ordered over a million guns, both US and Austrian plants have been working three shifts for some time now, turning out several thousand guns a day. Distributors are being advised that some orders may not be fulfilled until 2014. Agencies get delivery in 90 to 120 days, while individual officer priced guns make take up to 12 months. This can all vary by model, distributor and purchaser status.
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I have seen a number of Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glock 22s with both Austrian and US made frames. The current slide & barrel treatment is a nitride finish. Leaves the surface the same hardness and corrosion resistance as Tennifer.
Being back-ordered over a million guns, both US and Austrian plants have been working three shifts for some time now, turning out several thousand guns a day. Distributors are being advised that some orders may not be fulfilled until 2014. Agencies get delivery in 90 to 120 days, while individual officer priced guns make take up to 12 months. This can all vary by model, distributor and purchaser status.
Over a million back-ordered. I can imagine the CFO. Talk about wanting to dance and cry at the same time.
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Talk about wanting to dance and cry at the same time.
Yes, exactly. Why introduce anything new?
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For all you dedicated Glockoholics, here are 3 links to a discussion (Part 1, 2 & 3) of Tenifer vs. Melonite. Note that Tenifer is a metal treatment like case hardening and Glocks receive a metal finish over that. Scratches and wear you might see are to that finish, not the Tenifer treatment. Tenifer supposedly gives a Rockwell Hardness equivalent to a diamond
Here is the Wiki entry for Tenifer, if anyone cares to get that technical: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferritic_nitrocarburizing
The first link claims they are the same process...not just identical results....which goes against what I had heard previously that the Tenifer process was not allowed to be used in the US for environmental reasons.
“Dear remat457-
Tenifer® is a name used most often in other parts of the world; Melonite® is exclusive to North America . However, they are the same. Please let us know if we can help you further.
Michael *****
Manager, Sales & Service
HEF USA”
http://firearms.fortreg.com/archives/580
The second part stirs the confusion a bit more about if and when Tenifer stopped being the metal treatment for Glock.
http://firearms.fortreg.com/archives/1358
Part 3 comes after the author took his Glock Armorers course and from what he learned from Glock representatives there. Here is a copy of most of the text at the link.
1. Glock HAS stopped using the Tenifer metal treatment process about 2 years ago (but see #3) and use an ‘equivalent’ process that has the same Rockwell Hardness. My guess is that they don’t have to pay royalties for their new process. We saw some high mileage Gen3 and 4 pistols and the 4 actually had less normal finish wear (they probably were handpicked but still impressive).
2. beginning about 2 years ago they started making COMPLETE pistols in the U.S. (just a coincidence to #1? I don’t think so). Sorry, there was not time to get more details. I wish I had clarified what was being produced on the US line.
3. the 2011 Glock Annual still says that the sub-compacts are Tenifer treated, but try to find the word ‘Tenifer’ anywhere else!
So, my guess is that the Tenifer treatment is being phased out and so are the royalties to HEF. Incidentally, look for Tenifer references on the Walther PPQ? I can’t find them any more either…
Anyway 1 and 3 I have seen confirmed in writing (#2 was verbal). Thought I would update only for the sake of thoroughness. I will not post again unless I get additional info. Flame away
http://firearms.fortreg.com/archives/1670
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As far as the Tennifer / Melonite argument, I'll say this. They are not the same, or else Tennifer would be legal in this country the same way Melonite is. They require different chemicals and processing, hence the ban. They might be similar, but not the same. Also, look at how many forum threads are devoted to Springfield XD rusting issues. The Springfield XD Forum website even has an entire forum of it's own devoted to rusting issues with XD handguns. There are also countless threads devoted to similar rusting issues with Smith & Wesson M&P handguns, which are also Melonite treated. You almost never hear of Glocks rusting, and certainly no Glock forum has forums devoted to it, because it is all but a non existent occurrence.
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Hello,
I'm given to understand that the shortage of Glock pistols in the U.S. commercial market right now is mainly attributable to Glock giving priority to other contracts. The UK Ministry of Defense just adopted the Glock 17 as its primary pistol (some 25K+ of them), and I think the US DOJ contract is still in full swing as well. I've been told that distributors can't get their hands on Glock pistols because the company is trying to fill these contracts first, and has reduced the supply of pistols to the commercial market. Combined with the increased demand of the current market, the result is an extreme shortage of Glock products here in the US.
Regarding the Tenifer vs Melonite debate, I understand that these are both the same process ("salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing"), but due to licensing issues, the "Tenifer" label is used in Europe and the "Melonite" label is used here. Since salt bath nitriding is common here in the US, I'm suspicious of the claim that the "Tenifer" process is banned by the EPA.
It's also my understanding that the Tenifer process is a hardening process, a metal "treatment," and not a "finishing" process. I'm no chemist, but it's my understanding that the Tenifer / Melonite process is essentially adding nitrogen and carbon to the metal at very high temperatures (yet, below the "critical" point of the steel), to make the metal harder after it cools. When this process is done, the physical makeup of the metal is different.
After the Tenifer process is done, then a finish is actually applied to the parts. On the Glock, the Tenifered barrel is blued and (until recently) the Tenifered slide is parkerized (newer pistols are now being finished by some other process which leaves a smoother, dull gray, surface).
If you see surface wear on a Glock, then it is simply the finish (parkerizing or the new dull gray finish they are using) wearing through. If the wear is bad enough, you might get down to the raw, Tenifer-treated steel, but that doesn't represent a failure of the Tenifer, just a failure of the parkerizing which was applied on top of the Tenifer-treated steel.
At least that's how I understand it. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong.
I'm not familiar with the complaints about rusting that BillT mentioned in the XDs and S&Ws, but if there is a difference between these guns and the Glocks, I'm not sure it is related to Tenifer versus Melonite. There may be some other explanation here, such as:
1. A difference in the finish being applied to the slides on those guns after the Tenifer / Melonite process is complete--perhaps the S&W / XD finish is not as durable as the surface finish being applied to the Glock slides, so the underlying steel is being exposed more quickly?
2. A difference in the way the Tenifer / Melonite process is performed--skill and attention to detail?
3. A difference in the underlying steel. I understand that the Tenifer/Melonite process is not as effective on Stainless Steel (used by S&W on the M&P slide) as other steels. Perhaps this could account for an increased chance of rust on the S&W versus the Glock?
I'm assuming that the rust complaints you referenced are about the slide--is that correct BillT? Otherwise, if the complaints are about barrels or other internal parts rusting, then that's just a case of rust on blued steel, which is not unusual, and has nothing to do with Tenifer vs Melonite.
V/R
Mike
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http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/rusty-tales/
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Hello,
Thank you for the link BillT! That was interesting reading.
The complaints in that link all seem to center on the XDs with the stainless slides (the Bi-Tones). Guys are getting rust on their stainless guns and are not happy about it.
Stainless will rust, and it will rust very quickly depending on your body chemistry and your environment. Note that the guys who have the blackened XD slides aren't complaining about rust--whatever finish is being applied to the blackened XDs (black oxidizing?) is doing a better job of protecting the steel than on the unfinished, bare stainless slides.
I think my #3 above might apply here. From what I understand, the Melonite process is not as effective on stainless steel, and might actually break it down and make it even more susceptible to rusting than the same stainless steel that is not treated with the Melonite process. It appears the people with Bi-Tone XDs are confirming this.
It would be interesting to know if there are similar complaints about the S&W M&P slides, which are stainless steel with a finish on top, instead of the bare stainless of the XD Bi-Tones.
V/R
Mike
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Here is a Wiki link that speaks to the ferritic nitrocarburizing process and mentions Glock as using it with the Tenifer name and S&W and Springfield Armory as using it with the Melonite name.
There are a lot of references listed for verification, if interested
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferritic_nitrocarburizing#Uses
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Hello,
Thank you for the link BillT! That was interesting reading.
It would be interesting to know if there are similar complaints about the S&W M&P slides, which are stainless steel with a finish on top, instead of the bare stainless of the XD Bi-Tones.
V/R
Mike
If you Google, "Smith & Wesson M&P slide rusting issues", you'll get the phone book.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GUEA_enUS362US362&q=smith+%26+wesson+m%26p+slide+rust+issues
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Thanks. That confirms my suspicion that there is something else at play. Must be either the way the process is being executed by S&W and Springfield, or the fact that the process is being done on Stainless Steel that is responsible for the different propensity to rust, compared to the Glock. My strong suspicion is that the Stainless is responsible, as it's a common factor between the two brands with rust issues.
V/R
Mike