The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: funkcanna on February 01, 2013, 03:01:41 AM
-
Hi all, im a new shooter and looking for a bit of assistance.
I have only been shooting 4 times after having never seen a handgun in my life (From England now living in the UAE).
My first 3 sessions seemed to go very well (well, better than I expected anyway!) but my 4th yesterday was disheartening as it was not as good as my previous. I hoped to get better each time, not worse!
I was just wondering if anyone can look at my targets and offer advice? The range staff only offer very limited instruction and they seem to just want you done so they can sell the lane to someone else!
First Attempt 24th Jan
(http://i46.tinypic.com/t67btg.jpg)
Second Attempt 27th Jan
(http://i46.tinypic.com/fwucmb.jpg)
(http://i50.tinypic.com/jahz12.jpg)
Third Attempt 30th Jan
(http://i46.tinypic.com/x3z6nd.jpg)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/20r2sns.jpg)
I dont know how well the above shots are but I was happy with them. Then on the 4th attempt it all went wrong
Fourth Attempt 31st Jan
(http://i49.tinypic.com/14uvmyq.jpg)
There is (to my eyes) a big difference. All were shot at 10meters (although 5 of the shots were at 15meters on my third attempt but I think I only hit 2 of them!).
I tried to ask the staff what I was doing wrong but they werent much help. I am just wondering if there is anything evident that some one with experience can see from the shot pattern to determine what I may have been doing wrong, specifically on day 4 but really looking for ANY information which can help my overall accuracy.
All shot with a Glock 17. ITs also worth noting the pics only show my hits on the target, there were a few shots on each where I completely missed through failing to release the trigger fully and having the gun go off while I was realigning the sights!
Hope I posted in the right forum!
-
Welcome to the shooting sports.
Since you're in UAE, you might want to check out Accurate Reloading in addition to this fine forum. Accurate Reloading, is a truly international forum is based in the Middle East. You might be able to find some local shooters to help you out.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com (http://forums.accuratereloading.com)
You're doing very well for a new shooter. Don't be discouraged. Some days we have our "A" game and some days not. I think it's normal for a new shooter to start to regress slightly after awhile, as their body starts to develop "reflexes" and starts to flinch or anticipate the shot.
Here's my quick lesson on becoming a good shoot. Keep your eyes focused on the front sight and keep them open. How do you know if you didn't blink (or flinch)? If you keep your eyes open during the shot, you'll see the muzzle blast and on a semi-auto, you'll see the empty shell eject.
Also experiment with grips and holds. Read up on the advice from the top shooters and try it out , but remember not everybody is built the same way, so experiment to see what works for you.
Below "The Standard" chart. However, I don't invest a lot into this chart. I think it was developed more for one handed bullseye shooters than anything else. But give consideration to what it might be telling you and see if you think it is applicable.
And welcome to DRTV.
Alf
(http://www.pointmanspage.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7670&g2_serialNumber=3)
-
Welcome to The Forum. Here, you will find a wealth of information generated from tremendous experience. If this group can't come up with a solution/answer, then it's likely a philosophical question that doesn't really have a correct answer.
Alf offered some great advice and I can not hope to offer better. But, I have a couple of questions to help me clear things up in my own mind. You said you are in UAE and shooting at a range there. Each time you shot a Glock 17. Is it a "range" gun, or are you shooting with your own weapon? I guess I am specifically wondering if you are shooting the very same Glock each time. If not, then that alone could explain the difference.
Each gun will shoot a little differently, even the same model from the same maker. Additionally, a dirty weapon will shoot differently than the same weapon when Bristol clean.
Second, are you using the same ammo each time? I regularly shoot a Glock 27 and I have discovered that different ammo can make a world of difference. For example, Blazer brand ammo is no longer welcomed in my home. I do not think it is possible for me to attain any level of accuracy with that brand. Also, it's a "dirty" ammo that tends to foul the weapon rather quickly. Further, the various other Russian brands seem to be inconsistent in shooting patterns. You can certainly go relatively low price on ammo, but it should be from a recognized and reputable make, i.e. Winchester, Remington, Federal, etc.
Finally, what was your personal state on each of these trips to the range? I shoot best mid-morning and mid-afternoon. Mid-morning is good because the several cups of morning coffee have worn off to the degree that I am better able to maintain a steady hand. Mid-afternoon is good because I am past feeling sluggish after the noon meal and things are pretty optimal. An extra glass of wine or two the night before can also throw off my aim a little, especially in the AM. In other words, consistency is a good thing when trying to chew the center out of the 10 ring.
I hope some of what you find here will assist you. Echoing Alf, from what you have shown us, you are doing very well for a new shooter. As with anything worth doing well, practice is a key factor. You want to be certain, however, that you are practicing good habits, not reinforcing bad ones. If you can find an NRA certified pistol instructor, that could help you improve in very short order. From this end of things, it's not possible to analyze your stance, grip, trigger pull, etc. But, if you have established those basic elements correctly, only practice remains.
Again, welcome. And let us know how you progress.
Crusader Rabbit
-
I agree with Alf, concentrate on your front sight. Don't look at your target. Take your time and try to work on the basics, and read as much as you can.
And welcome to the forum.
-
If you have addressed the other issues mentioned concerning the pistol, and ammo, it's time to focus on the next factor, your own focus . Accurate shooting actually requires near total concentration as you shoot you need to tune out the people around you, the fact that it's hot, or cold, as you squeeze off each shot your total attention needs to consist of the sights, your breathing, the target, and your trigger control .
Every shot is an entirely new event as you bring the pistol up, or recover from the recoil of the last shot.
The only thing that should be in your mind is making THIS shot ;.
The last shot is history and nothing you can do about it, there may not be a next shot, so THIS is the one that counts.
Another thing is, do not try to be fast.
Try to be smooth, with no wasted motion, or fumbling, as you gain experience smooth, and repetitive will develop into speed as you train your muscles to perform the same actions in the same manner over and over .
It may seem somewhat zen like to start, but as you progress it will become more natural.
Another thing to address is why have you taken up shooting ?
If you just want to have fun shooting targets or perhaps competing then you have some things to work on as you continue to improve.
If, on the other hand you simply want to be able to defend yourself in a potentially hostile environment the groups you posted are quite enough for that if you continue practicing to maintain your skill level.
-
Funk,
You mention not fully releasing the trigger and having it discharge before you had realigned the sights.
That is a technique used for faster shooting.
Rather than learn to release it fully, learn to release to that reset point and time your trigger pull from there.
Another thing.... When you are practicing and you start to feel impatient..wanting to get the magazine emptied or the allotted rounds down range so you can go do something else, it's time to end the session. You will gain nothing but frustration and the spent cases from wasted ammo if you continue.
Call it a day when you are no longer looking forward to making each shot count. TomB refereed to it..when you can no longer keep that focus on your shot, it's time to pack it in.
-
Welcome, and what all above have said is valuable info and I concur.
Also, looking at the holes in the target, it makes me ask what the specific bullet type is for the rounds you are shooting.
I noticed as the photos progress, the edges of the holes get darker (bullet wipe).
I have seen this many times during bullseye competition and it can be caused by two things in particular (there may be others).
1) Soft Lead bullets..... and shooting lead bullets in a Glock with a factory barrel will load the rifling and can cause a degradation of accuracy.
2) Barrel fouling from dirty ammo (powder/primers)......which will also cause a decrease in accuracy over time, potentially compounding the issues mentioned by others.
-
Welcome Funk... so happy to have you here. In addition to all of the excellent comments above, let me throw a few things out there that you can think about.
Do you understand the difference between 'sight alignment' and 'sight picture' ? While focusing on the front sight (the rear sight and the target will both appear fuzzy) try to maintain proper sight alignment. Proper sight alignment for your Glock 17 with 3-dot sights would be having all three dots collinear with the front dot equidistant between the two rear dots. While maintaining focus on the front sight, superimpose the aligned sights over the target.
Your pistol is probably setup to shoot 'point of aim equals point of impact' at a specific distance - maybe 50 feet or 25 yards (this distance depends on manufacturer preference). This means that the bullet will impact the target on the spot covered by the front dot. The exact point of impact, of course, will depend on distance and the type of ammo you're using. When first learning to shoot, you can ignore these differences and just concentrate on keeping "the dot on the spot" - and this is the proper 'sight picture'.
So... you're keeping the front sight (1) in sharp focus, (2) lined up properly with the fuzzy rear sights, and (3) superimposed over the spot you want to hit on the fuzzy target. Now the trick is to maintain this sight alignment and sight picture as you slowly press the trigger straight back using your trigger finger's first pad. Don't slap, jerk, push, or pull the trigger - just a nice slow increasing pressure until the shot breaks. A little wiggling of the front sight is normal but with practice you learn to control the wiggle.
Now there's shot follow through. After the shot breaks, resist the urge to lower the gun to look at the target. Managing your gun's recoil involves re-establishing proper sight alignment and sight picture as quickly and smoothly as possible. As a new shooter, you also want to learn what the trigger feels like when it 'resets'. When the shot breaks, the trigger will be all the way to the rear. As you are re-establishing sight alignment and sight picture, slowly release the trigger while maintaining slight pressure on the trigger. You will feel, and possibly hear, a little "bump" - that's a bad way to describe it but what you're experiencing is the reset of the trigger. If you are going to fire another shot then do not release the trigger any further than its reset point.
So... you've fired a shot, re-established sight alignment and sight picture, and reset the trigger. You're now ready to do it all again.
You may have heard or read about 'dry fire' practice. This is practicing shooting fundamentals with an UNLOADED gun. The emphasis here is on UNLOADED. ;D With your unloaded pistol's muzzle pointed in a safe direction, you can practice sight alignment, sight picture, trigger press, and trigger reset anywhere you want for as long as you want. Dry fire is a good way to perfect these fundamentals. You can even make this practice a little more challenging by balancing a small coin on the front sight as you press the trigger - if the coin stays in place then you've executed an acceptably smooth trigger press.
Other components of breaking a good, clean shot are grip and stance. I'll let somebody else explain those.
Hope this helps. :)
-
If it hasn't been posted already, see the "Wall Drill" segment in the DRTV Video section. What happens is a conditioning of the mind to have better eye/hand coordination, and a "smooth" repeat smooth and repetitive trigger pull. Never be reluctant to slow down to assess.
Remember where the front sight was when a shot was consistant. Range ammo can sometimes provide a different result in grouping.
Vary your ammo, find the one that works for you.
Welcome to DRTV, please keep us informed as to your progress, we are all striving to be better shooters, regardless of skill level.
It is a never ending quest for consistancy and rhythm.
-
The "Wall Drill"
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=357.0
-
Thank you guys for the information, I didnt expect anything so in depth and I really appreciate it!
it makes me ask what the specific bullet type is for the rounds you are shooting.
Im not sure but I will be sure to check tomorrow when I go.
Each time you shot a Glock 17. Is it a "range" gun, or are you shooting with your own weapon?
Its a range gun. Unfortunately as an Expat in the UAE I cant legal own my own firearm :( However I always check the weapon number and its been the same at least the last 2 times.
Second, are you using the same ammo each time?
I am not sure, but I would assume the range has a standard ammo type, but I will check.
Finally, what was your personal state on each of these trips to the range?
I normally go at 1pm every time (when it opens) so its not busy. Im a photographer so im fortunate (or unfortunate!) to work unsociable hours so I get weekdays to go to the range. The only difference in mindset for the last visit was that it was very spur of the moment. I was supposed to have a job which got cancelled last minute and I decided to go. Every other time was pre-planned by a few days.
Again, thank you all for your responses.
-
We may beat each other up on political topics but we all work together on gun stuff and cheering on new comers to the sports.
-
I went back again today and decided to try the glock 19 and it felt nice. It was a good session.
Now the trick is to maintain this sight alignment and sight picture as you slowly press the trigger straight back using your trigger finger's first pad. Don't slap, jerk, push, or pull the trigger - just a nice slow increasing pressure until the shot breaks.
This I found was a massive help. I was previously unknowingly curling my finger around the trigger at the first knuckle. Today I made sure it was only the pad. This seemed to give me more control over the pressure I applied which in turn made the trigger squeeze much smoother and also felt like I needed to "squeeze" with less pressure to get the shot off which in turn felt like I wasnt flinching my hand away as I shot - it kinda felt like I was only using my finger muscles instead of my whole hand muscles, if you know what I mean?
I also had a few shots with a Sig P226 X5 and found I was WAY more accurate with this, with 3 of the 5 shots going straight in the bullseye and the other 2 very close. The trigger felt so much lighter than the Glocks. However, the gun is a bit cumbersome and didnt feel as comfortable as the Glock, so ill stick with the Glock, but it showed me that my main issue appeared to be the trigger pull with me squeezing too hard with my whole hand and sort of pulling the trigger back with my finger and also pushing the grip forward slightly with my hand rather than ONLY bringing the trigger back, which I hope I have fixed today!
Thanks again, feels good to make progress
-
Oh and ammunition is Caracal 9mm. Caracal is a UAE company I think, so thats probably why its used!
-
Glad you're making progress. I knew there was a Caracal pistol but never heard of Caracal ammo before. They probably don't sell it here.
-
Welcome to the forum mate, btw not everyone here abouts is american, there are a few blowins like myself from across the pond so to speak.
I have found with most new shooters their first few times they do really well and then they appear to get worse, why you might ask and in my humble experience it is because of perceived expectations.
When you first try it, you have no expectations your mindset is completely empty of what you are capable of and you are under no illusions. However after you first have a go you set yourself a benchmark and you expect yourself to excel that every time, well you dont, you cant. Only with time, training and repetition (correct training) will things become natural to you, your stance, trigger control, breathing. If everyone got better at their initial learning curve their would be expert marksman and Olympic quality shooters neck high at the local dump.
Take your time, enjoy the sport of shooting, have fun, be safe and set your mind not to expect unreal performance increases, from now to you die, each performance increase will be a gradual improvement, shooting guns aint like in the movies eh ;)
cheers
sledge
(from downunder downunder)
-
Thanks Sledge. Yeah I agree, I had no expectations at first, however at the same time I didnt know what I was doing right (or wrong!). I few sessions later I feel alot more knowledgable about my technique so can hopefully keep practicing and keeping in check my problems. Overall though, the whole experience is extremely enjoyable and lots of practice to get better sounds good to me :)
-
If you can, get together with others who are already skilled shooters to get some hands on help from them.
You can learn a certain amount here, or from videos, but nothing will compare to having some one right there to say you're doing this right, you're doing that wrong, or try doing it this way.