The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: graywolf on February 14, 2013, 03:23:17 PM
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Why is the Department of Homeland Security buying so many bullets?
Published February 14, 2013
Associated Press
Online rumors about a big government munitions purchase are true, sort of.
The Homeland Security Department wants to buy more than 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition in the next four or five years. It says it needs them -- roughly the equivalent of five bullets for every person in the United States -- for law enforcement agents in training and on duty.
Published federal notices about the ammo buy have agitated conspiracy theorists since the fall. That's when conservative radio host Alex Jones spoke of an "arms race against the American people" and said the government was "gearing up for total collapse, they're gearing up for huge wars."
The government's explanation is much less sinister.
Federal solicitations to buy the bullets are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga . The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.
Dixon said one of the contracts would allow Homeland Security to buy up to 750 million rounds of ammunition over the next five years for its training facilities. The rounds are used for basic and advanced law enforcement training for federal law enforcement agencies under the department's umbrella. The facilities also offer firearms training to tens of thousands of federal law enforcement officers. More than 90 federal agencies and 70,000 agents and officers used the department's training center last year.
The rest of the 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition would be purchased by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the federal government's second largest criminal investigative agency.
ICE's ammunition requests in the last year included:
--450 million rounds of .40-caliber duty ammunition
--40 million rounds of rifle ammunition a year for as many as five years, for a total bullet-buy of 200 million rounds
--176,000 rifle rounds on a separate contract
--25,000 blank rounds
The Homeland Security ammo buy is not the first time the government's bullets purchases have sparked concerns on the Internet. The same thing happened last year when the Social Security Administration posted a notice that it was buying 174,000 hollow point bullets.
Jonathan L. Lasher, the agency's assistant inspector general for external relations, said those bullets were for the Social Security inspector general's office, which has about 295 agents who investigate Social Security fraud and other crimes.
Jones the talk-show host did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/14/why-is-department-homeland-security-buying-so-many-bullets/?test=latestnews#ixzz2KuWblyyz
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Yeah, I'll buy that explanation. Makes total sense to me.
Now, do you still have that beachfront property in New Mexico and the Alpine Chalet in the Florida Alps that I wanted to buy?
Sheesh...
Crusader Rabbit
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The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.
Dixon said one of the contracts would allow Homeland Security to buy up to 750 million rounds of ammunition over the next five years for its training facilities.
15 mil rounds expended every year. 750 miil rounds total. They're set for the next 50 years, I guess.
They're not stocking up for nefarious purposes, they're stocking up to save us taxpayers some money. It's like the government version of buying ammo at Sam's Club.
How thoughtful of them.
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I trust Alex Jones more than a gov't spokesperson's "explanation"......
I think ammo companies should come together and "suspend" all non military orders until civilian orders catch up....No rds. to the DHS, FBI, SS, ATF,...etc,....
Watch how fast this "gun control issue" goes away.
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The last time the government bought so much stuff to save money, I was eating WW II C-rations in chow halls during the 1960's. Oh oh, I hope this situation is not analogous!
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I know there will be a least one 40 in my safe soon. I think it is in the process of replacing the 9mm as the buy anywhere ammunition and I see future surplus being created by DHS now. 650 million rounds? Some pro shooters shoot around 85k a year it so with that in mind it would take 1000 people shooting 65k (1250 a week) a year to consume all of that ammunition- or 10000 people shooting 6,500 rounds per year (500 a month) or a million people shooting 650 rounds. I know that some training courses (like Chris Costa's) will run through 1800 rounds in a 3 day course but these are some staggering numbers.
Somewhere in there is a scary number of Federal "Law Enforcement" Officers. They may be enforcing tax law, civil laws (or the repeal of civil liberities), marshal law, Obama Executive Orders (the LEOs would be part of the Executive Branch after all).
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Alex Jones has repeated shown himself to be an ass with inaccurate and sensationalized reports and using one provable "fact" to build an entire conspiracy.
He's no better than the MSM.
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You all make me laugh. Even when you do the math yourself and the numbers come up pretty close you STILL insist that its some conspiracy. How much ammo do YOU shoot every year? I shoot more at an IDPA match in a weekend than I did as base police, and I was range staff that shot off all the excess rounds at the end of the quarter. Every department is only allowed so many rounds for training every quarter. You are required to expend it, even if you don't need to. Every round not expended in training but allocated must be accounted for and either used for "remedial" training or disposed of. Even the remedial rounds MUST be expended prior to the end of the year. No extras, no spares, no stockpiles, it must be gone. How much ammo is in your locker from last year? The Social Security numbers work out to around 600 rds per agent for the year, which you'd typically shoot a qual course either every three or six months. The handgun qual for the Navy is 48 rds start to finish and you are required to do it at least twice for score,plus any practice prior.
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Alex Jones is an ass and a sensationalist. But compared to a gov't spokeweasel? Really?
However, at no time in history has specific branches of the gov't ordered so much JHP and PDW ammo. It ain't range ammoi!
What changed?
Perhaps an Annointed One/Community Organizer that touted a Civilian Defense Force that rivals the military....
OBTW, Janet From Another Planet, "our borders are secure" Napalitano, is such a trustworthy spokesperson.
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Read the article on the FBI training. They just raised the number of rounds per agent per qual by ten. That alone could equal a million rounds a year for a department.
They don't order different ammo for duty and training, it is in fact the same ammo.
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One of the things I remember when I was shot with the S.S. a few years ago, they shot the same ammo that they carried. They get to practice with what they carry. Where you and I have to use less expensive ammo so we can shoot more, they get to use the good stuff for target practice. I find it a waste of money that they are doing target practice with Federal Hyrda-Shok for the qualfication. That is my only explaination why they would need so many. I just wish I could train with what I carried, if I did that, I would have about the same deficit the gov't is running.
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Read the article on the FBI training. They just raised the number of rounds per agent per qual by ten. That alone could equal a million rounds a year for a department.
They don't order different ammo for duty and training, it is in fact the same ammo.
And this is just simply SOP?
I understand spending taxpayer dollars gets you the "good ammo" but cite another build up and procurement req. of this magnitude?
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That's just it, it ISN'T a build up, its they way they have ordered ammo from day one. Every so many years a contract is let for a given number of rounds per year for x years. A year or two before the contract runs out, they send out a Request For Proposal to get bids on the next version of the contract. The major difference is it used to be up to the individual agency to do it, now DHS is doing the contract for multiple agencies. If the end result is the same, but the COST is lowered does it matter if its one contract for say 20million rounds or ten contracts for 2 million rounds? Especially at the end of the day when it only means an agent shoots 100 rds a month, if that.
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Jnevis we've been here before and it got old quick last time. BUT DHS has 210,000'ish employees that includes FEMA, ICE, TSA and the Coast Guard none of which are traditional "combat arms"-say along the lines of the USMC or Army Infantry where their job is to shoot bad guys.
While there may be some truth to the amount of ammunition consumed in training do really you have NO problem with TSA, FEMA or Officers in the Science and Technology Directorate training, qualifying and carrying guns?
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Jnevis we've been here before and it got old quick last time. BUT DHS has 210,000'ish employees that includes FEMA, ICE, TSA and the Coast Guard none of which are traditional "combat arms"-say along the lines of the USMC or Army Infantry where their job is to shoot bad guys.
While there may be some truth to the amount of ammunition consumed in training do really you have NO problem with TSA, FEMA or Officers in the Science and Technology Directorate training, qualifying and carrying guns?
Those departments, except TSA in its current form, have had law enforcement powers of some form and variety, although small in number, for decades. Last time I checked ANY police officer, no matter where or for whom they work were REQUIRED to qualify with a weapon as a requirement of employment. They don't have to be "combat arms," but since you brought it up the Coast Guard very much is a military organization. They're chartered to support the US Navy abroad in a time of war and have been since they're inception. USCG personnel are currently deployed to the Horn of Africa and Middle East conducting maritime interdiction aboard US Navy vessels, since the Navy cannot arrest or detain a vessel but the CG can for inspection. You tell the ICE/CBP/USCG agents in South Florida or along the border they aren't supposed to shoot at bad guys beacaue they aren't "combat troops." Following your logic, all police officers shouldn't carry a gun, or qualify with them, they aren't combat troops either.
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Following your logic, all police officers shouldn't carry a gun, or qualify with them, they aren't combat troops either.
Considering how many innocents they have shot in recent months that might not be a bad idea.
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I wasn't going there but.... >:( slight thread drift ahead...
I read somewhere that police departments in areas where the leadership is anti-gun have much lower hit percentages than areas that are pro-gun. It makes sense since most police agencies are made up of relatively local recruits. If there isn't a lot of familiarity with firearms to begin with, mastery requires a lot more work. Add to that an administration that wants as little to do with firearms will by non-action or out right disapproval minimize training time/resources.
Those same agencies do not allow force on force training, either with Simunitions or "laser tag" so then you end up with Blue on Blue or civilians getting shot at since there is no "(brain) muscle memory" to fall back on. That is the reason the Navy built Top Gun, so fighter pilots could see "combat" before they actually went to a war zone and couldn't react to a threat properly. If you've never experienced how to do target identification under stress, your brain can't process it when it needs to. Some forward thinking instructors have started implementing IDPA/USPSA type stages into training to get the students to "think through the problem" but on a very limited basis, and only after years of trying to convinve the leadership to let them.
The Fed agencies are no different. The training is focused on the lowest common denominator. They can only train to minimums. If a class is full of students from say NYC or CA, the overall skill level is lower than if they were from say AZ or TX. How long did it take for the FBI to teach CQB instead of, effectively, bullseye shooting at 25 yds, while most of the shootings were less than 7 yds? The standards are fairly low overall, and can be drastically different from place to place.
They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. On one hand they get hammered for ordering/using ammo for training but on the other they get an earfull since officers aren't HITTING targets. The only way for them to get hits is to practice, but then it "raises questions" when they ask for the materials to do so.
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They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. On one hand they get hammered for ordering/using ammo for training but on the other they get an earfull since officers aren't HITTING targets. The only way for them to get hits is to practice, but then it "raises questions" when they ask for the materials to do so.
I think the only reason that it is raising questions now is because of the outright hostility with which the "enemies of the state" are being treated. Anyone who disagrees with this regime is labeled a wacko, racist, terrorist. And with the absolute hysteria to try to disarm the citizenry, I have to admit I'm a little curious also. Why would you order 50 years worth of ammo when #1 you are beyond broke, #2 you have no idea if we will still be using cartridge ammunition in 50 years. That is FAR beyond the foreseeable future. UNLESS you have other plans. I doubt that there is a conspiracy, but at the same time, I have thought for years now that this regime is trying to incite some sort of insurrection so that they could put the real screws to the populace.
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I think the only reason that it is raising questions now is because of the outright hostility with which the "enemies of the state" are being treated. Anyone who disagrees with this regime is labeled a wacko, racist, terrorist. And with the absolute hysteria to try to disarm the citizenry, I have to admit I'm a little curious also. Why would you order 50 years worth of ammo when #1 you are beyond broke, #2 you have no idea if we will still be using cartridge ammunition in 50 years. That is FAR beyond the foreseeable future. UNLESS you have other plans. I doubt that there is a conspiracy, but at the same time, I have thought for years now that this regime is trying to incite some sort of insurrection so that they could put the real screws to the populace.
Where do you get 50 years worth of ammunition?
The contract is for five years @ 150 million rounds per year for training ranges.
They use 15 million rounds at FLETC alone in one year. With the stated 70,000 agents trained that is less than 250 rds per agent.
The FBI course is now 60 rounds per CoF. If we round the number of personnel in the FBI to 30K (actual is 36, but not all are armed) that's 1.8 million rounds to shoot it ONCE, but they typically shoot it twice, twice a year, so around 7.2 million rounds for basic quals.
ICE gets 90million rounds under the same contract, and if they only have 18K armed agents (actual is just shy of 21K) that's 5000 rounds per agent per year.
I know that whole fact vs emotion thing gets you every time...
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Where do you get 50 years worth of ammunition?
FTA: 1.6 BILLION rounds.
I know that whole fact vs emotion thing gets you every time...
I doubt that there is a conspiracy, but at the same time, I have thought for years now that this regime is trying to incite some sort of insurrection so that they could put the real screws to the populace.
I'm begging you to prove me wrong here.
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OK, 1.6 BILLION rounds divided by 220,000 (DHS total force is over 240,000 according to thier website) equals 7272 rounds divided by 5 is 1450 rounds per agent per year, 120 rounds a month. That's pistol (including simunition), rifle, and shotgun total. I shoot that in a weekend.
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My take on this wants I did the math on all the number is just how massive the federal government has become. 1.6 billion is a huge number but when you start dong the math the numbers per agents/departments seem reasonable. The scary part is the size of the government, not the size of the ammo order.
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It isn't the event but the timing. Sequestration and reduction in budget, anti gun laws flying all over. Obama's mouth spouting what the office can't create via executive order.
I got an idea! Lets:
1) buy up as much high popular rounds of ammunition as possible! They get priority over consumer purchases so less on the streets.
2) our buying will increase demand thus spiking prices, reducing total sales and maintaining manufacturing taxation levels if not increasing it.
3) resellers and manufactures will self limit purchases to consumers to maintain stock. Limiting how much a person may purchase at any given time.
Makes rather perfect sense to me. Regulation through economics.
3)
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Part of the reason this is getting so much visibility is DHS was eight different agencies prior to 9/11 that each ordered thier own equipment, ammo, and other supplies. They really haven't grown more than 10% from pre-9/11 numbers but when they stop doing things as eight agencies and do them as one, the numbers get big enough people notice.
A little more gov't contracting 101:
We'll use ammo as an example, if each DHS agency lets a contract for ammo for 750,000 rounds of 40SW and the bids come in at $1.3495/rd or $1.3995/rd (Cabelas online price for Federal Guard Dog or Dakota PowrBall 40SW) but since it's such a large order both manufacturers knock 10% off the price. They can't just send a check to Federal for the $912K and call it good. That money has to be appropriated by Congress in one bill, then authorized in another. Once the money is allocated by Congress, it must be sent to DHS as part of thier budget then passed to the agencies. There is a "pass through fee" of say .05% that DHS uses to pay the salary of the financial management specialist that handled the money, thier manager, those people's occupation fees (building maintenance costs/lights/water) and any IT fees to connect to the internet. Before all eight agencies did this individually so the orders were relatively small but the fees were the same for each contract. Now DHS make a bigger single order, so now the manufacturer instead of 10%, discounts it 15%. Also there is only one pass through instead of eight so the overall budget cost is much lower.
Think of it as Costco. You buy a box of 1000 paper plates for $3 instead of 5 boxes of 200 for $1.50 each with the sales tax being .30 or .75 respectively IF your wife lets you have the checkbook.
One other thing is that cost is constant for the life of the contract, so if next year Federal decides to raise the commercial price to $1.39/rd due to inflaton or increased cost DHS is still only paying $1.147/rd
These contracts take a minimum of a year to two years to get from the request to the final winning bid being awarded the contract. This stuff won't be made for another year after that.
Another piece of the puzzle you may not realize but most of the DHS components changed calibers about a year or so after DHS came to be. They had to let contracts for new weapons, but still had to maintain stocks of the old ammo (9mm) until all the new guns were in the inventory which again was a four to five year contract. Then you have to retrain all your agents with the new gun before you can put it in the field. Now they are getting to the point where the old ammo is gone and the new ammo from the first contract is getting depleted, so if you look at it that way, it IS Bush's fault ;D
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I think JNevis is crazy .
What he is saying is impossible since it would involve the US Govt actually saving a few bucks.
I'd sooner believe in Sasquatch.
And before he blows a gasket and has a stroke or something I will admit to just a leetle bit of sarcasm. ::)
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I think JNevis is crazy .
What he is saying is impossible since it would involve the US Govt actually saving a few bucks.
I'd sooner believe in Sasquatch.
And before he blows a gasket and has a stroke or something I will admit to just a leetle bit of sarcasm. ::)
I will admit to being a little crazy (but not to my DR) ;D.
My old gov't customer reminded me constantly that right or wrong we are legally obligated to spend all of the money allocated to us. If we can make smarter decisions on how the money is spent the better.
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When I was in the Marines I spent a few months in Co. supply.
Imagine my surprise when I caught hell for ending the quarter with a surplus . ;D
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are you saying DHS has 220,000 employees and they all shoot?
are there 1811 (job code) special agent positions within DHS?
are the 1811's the only ones who carry guns?
years back when I was 36, I was applying to DSS, which is like the US Secret Service counterpart, but for the State Department's VIP's and embassies . I suspect that the number of 1811's with DSS or with State is actually very small compared to the entire count of their employees.
IIRC, other agencies like the Agriculture Dept, the Labor Dept, and even the Postal Service have their own 1811's, too.
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where's all their brass go:
(http://blog.usaseopros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/homer-simpson-drooling.jpg)
I had a cop friend who I used to shoot matches with tell me that training was non-existent for them. They qual'ed like once or twice a year.
To go to training would mean that somewhere else during that pay period, that cop or cops would end up with a shift with a lot of overtime tacked onto it.
Mayors and chiefs are reluctant to shell out the bucks for overtime. My friend went on to tell me that the mayors and chiefs produced more PR when the police cruisers were actually out driving around in town. Basically, they were paying for the cops to be visible. Being at the range = NOT visible .
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Even if only half of DHS caries a gun, that still only works out to be 220 rds a month.
Even using that number, breaking it down further based one the percentages, you're looking at 150 pistol, 60 rifle, and 10 shotgun rounds. That is training and duty rounds, so 36-45 rounds on the belt, a mag for the M4, and a full shotgun are in the car. The rest is used for training. It may not be used on a monthly basis so its reserve, then taken to the range for qual. Like I said before it must be used by the end of the year, no surplus.
Is it REALLY that hard to figure out?