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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: dbltap on February 20, 2013, 09:03:30 PM

Title: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: dbltap on February 20, 2013, 09:03:30 PM: A group of us shooters got together one day and did more talking than shooting because ammo is scares but opinions are plentiful. One thing we talked about is the possibility that the Federal Government is intentionally creating the ammo shortage by having the Dept. of Homeland Security buy up as much as they can of the popular 223/5.56, 9mm,40 S&W, 45ACP and 22 rimfire ammo. Now we realize that ammo is in need by the feds as we are still in a gorilla war in the Middle East but, why does DHS need billions of rounds of ammo?
The last time we had a shortage in ammo it wasn't this bad. Federal owns most of the large scale producers in this country, why this was allowed I don't know, and they have Lake City but is all Lake City production for the feds now? Correct me if I'm wrong, please. Who's left for the rest of the country? Are they so booked with government contracts that they can't or wont produce for the rank and file because they can make more money with the feds?
I would like to see a message from each of the large ammo produces that they are not ignoring citizens for juicy government contracts. Now yes, people are hording ammo like never before, but is that the only reason for the shortage? In short, how much production is going to civilian markets and how much is government, non-military, contracts.

Federal ATK
Remington UMC
CCI Blazer Speer
Hornady
Blackhills
Cor-Bon
Magtech
Winchester

Some of these companies may be part of the same parent company. There is a large number of small producers but is there a registry listing them all?

Thanks
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: JC5123 on February 21, 2013, 08:31:05 AM: As someone who deals with .gov contracts I can tell you this. You make much better profit margins when selling to John Q. Customer. However the contracts with the .gov agencies are so huge that the dollars add up very quickly. Also it's pretty standard procedure to fill your biggest orders first.

I agree that the whole thing stinks. It's scary living in a time where our government has already done things so egregious that even some of the wildest conspiracy theories seem plausible. However, I think the ammo shortage is a case of the perfect storm. Government contracts always start at the first of the year, and then with the apocalypse happening right before the end of last year. The hoarding, and panic buying. The industry just flat couldn't bear it all at once.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: Magoo541 on February 21, 2013, 09:02:12 AM: Quote from: JC5123 on February 21, 2013, 08:31:05 AM
. However, I think the ammo shortage is a case of the perfect storm. Government contracts always start at the first of the year, and then with the apocalypse happening right before the end of last year. The hoarding, and panic buying.

This is the main culprit IMHO, not those that were prepared but by those that were NOT prepared. I was in the process of stocking up last fall when things started getting scarce and I have fought the urge to put in orders for 10,000 primers like a few of my friends have because I think that will only prolong the "storm". I am getting by with a little help from my friends, gun club and the occasional component that shows up at the store.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: JC5123 on February 21, 2013, 09:20:31 AM: I look back now, when I was doing my hoarding in October before the election, just in case we lost. Glad I did now. Unfortunately I'm starting to run low on primers and powder. Been lucky enough to find a little here and there. But being very conservative in shooting and reloading now.

Been focusing on improving my shotgun training, since shot shells are still pretty plentiful.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: JoeG on February 21, 2013, 09:48:14 AM: I figure it was either buy a billion rounds of ammo or one of those trillion dollar coins from the fed and they decided the ammo might be more useful!
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: JC5123 on February 21, 2013, 10:04:28 AM: Quote from: JoeG on February 21, 2013, 09:48:14 AM
I figure it was either buy a billion rounds of ammo or one of those trillion dollar coins from the fed and they decided the ammo might be more useful!

Not to mention actually worth something.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: brushmore on February 21, 2013, 06:30:59 PM: Something that I noticed is that all of the shooters that haven't really been paying attention and maybe thought those that stocked up were paranoid now are finding short supplies and high prices. So now instead of buying a couple of boxes like they normally, they buy a brick or case. So the demand grows exponentially as more people become "hoarders".
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: tombogan03884 on February 21, 2013, 06:42:49 PM: Quote from: JC5123 on February 21, 2013, 10:04:28 AM
Not to mention actually worth something.

The platinum coins would have had value since an ounce of platinum is worth as much or more than equal weight in gold.
but the face value of copper, gold, and silver coins is regulated by law .
Platinum is not . That was the thinking behind the idea, a platinum coin would be valued at what ever the Fed wanted .
Just like the paper our money is printed on.
If China accepted a one ounce platinum coin with a face value of $1 trillion in payment for $1 trillion in debt then that is it's value regardless of the intrinsic value of metal in the coin.

3x6 inch slips of paper are not worth $10 or $20, but if they are printed with "federal reserve and appropriate signatures then people treat them as if they were.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: JoeG on February 23, 2013, 09:06:13 AM: Tom you are over thinking my witticism or possibly half witticism. :)
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: tombogan03884 on February 23, 2013, 09:14:51 AM: Quote from: JoeG on February 23, 2013, 09:06:13 AM
Tom you are over thinking my witticism or possibly half witticism. :)

No, I actually got your comment, it just seemed like to good a chance to point out that "value" is nothing more than perception.
What is the difference between a $1 and a $100 ?
Absolutely nothing except the pictures printed on them.
So, why is one worth $99 more than the other ?
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: bruchi on March 17, 2013, 01:35:48 PM: Fifth grade teacher some decades ago told me something quite smart I will never forget, if you are in doubt about something apply math to it, math does not lie and never fails, 2+2 will add to 4 every time.

Don't recall the actual numbers, 40 million rounds? NOT BILLIONS but the thing about DHS ordering oodles of ammunition has been around for some time and taking in account first of all that this huge orders are done in such amounts both to secure an ongoing supply down the line and perhaps even a "better price", a GIANT truck convoy does not back up with millions of rounds at once, takes years for this "order" to materialize so you factor this in and all of their employees, that need to practice and qualify with firearms and the amount is more than reasonable.

DHS ia a giant umbrella with lots of federal agencies under it.

Of curse when the irresponsible media does not show the entire picture and just sells us a "blurb" with them huge numbers next to a government agency in bold letters it feeds our need for drama and there we go like the proverbial Pavlovian frog legs!

Some say that when in doubt the first thing that comes to mind is most often the correct one, when there are empty LGS all over the country because of an ongoing "buying frenzy" by old and MANY NEW gun owners first thing that comes to mind is that this "buying frenzy" includes ammo as well, more so in the most popular calibers...
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: Jrlobo on March 17, 2013, 03:55:28 PM: bruchi,

Let me add this up" 1.6 Billion rounds of ammo; 7,700 assault rifles; 2,700 light armored tanks; drones; 420 Million survival meals all at once and all for DHS subordinates. And WE are blowing this out of proportion? Admittedly, we are the hoarders; we started before the rush by those wanting to buy ARs and ammo after the election and the Newtown Massacre. So when the government hoards this adds to shortages we now experience, not a smart economic move by government that prefers orderly markets...unless it is intentional! This is going to be the tip of the iceberg. The real danger is what in hell is the government going to do with all of that?
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: tombogan03884 on March 17, 2013, 06:16:39 PM: I will point out that FEMA comes under DHS so how long would those MRE's last in Hurricane season if Miami got hit, or NYC again ?
Earthquake in LA, San Francisco/Oakland , or Seattle ?
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: Ichiban on March 17, 2013, 06:44:32 PM: Also, it looks like it is the Navy/USMC that is buying the 2717 MRAPs. DHS has 16.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/41713_Fact_Checking-_Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/41713_Fact_Checking-_Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks)
Quote
Update 1: Business Insider confirms this report and DHS is only in possession of 16 MRAP and the USMC getting the 2,717:
http://www.businessinsider.com/homeland-security-serving-warrants-mrap-2013-3 (http://www.businessinsider.com/homeland-security-serving-warrants-mrap-2013-3)

The Gov is scary enough the way it is.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: BBJohnnyT on March 18, 2013, 10:11:22 AM: Quote from: tombogan03884 on February 23, 2013, 09:14:51 AM
No, I actually got your comment, it just seemed like to good a chance to point out that "value" is nothing more than perception.

Right, that why the same things cost more and more American dollars each year. We call that inflation, but it all boils down to perception. With more fake money the government put out each year backed by nothing but their "word", people's perception is that money is "worth" less and less. Contrast that with precious metals. It's not an investment, because it doesn't gain value. It simply maintains value as folks perceive it. For example, a 150 years ago, a 1 ounce gold coin would get a tailor to make you a nice suit. Today, that same 1 ounce gold coin would get a tailor to make you a nice suit.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: Jrlobo on March 18, 2013, 12:12:55 PM: BBJohnnyT,

Depends on what you characterize as a nice suit. I personally don't own a suit valued at $1690, nor one that cost that much. I understand what you are trying to say, but the value of gold on the world market is not just pegged to the value of the U.S. dollar. Mixed in is the supply and demand quotient and, for the last 10 years, a fear quotient. Mostly hidden from view also is the government quotient, wherein governments manipulate (suppress) the gold and other precious metals markets to suit their own ends. You are definitely right about value being nothing more than perception, because otherwise gold would be relatively worthless.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: Solus on June 04, 2013, 09:41:41 AM: Found a link on the JFPO site (http://jpfo.org/alerts2013/alert20130603.htm ) to an article about the US ammunition market that puts the Gov. purchases in perspective It looks like it government ammo purchases can't be targeted at depleting the ammo supply....not that all that ammo might not mean other bad things.

From the article:

Other rumors concern acquisitions of ammunition by the Department of Homeland Security and a number of smaller agencies. Much of this concern stems from a misunderstanding of the size of the U.S. ammunition market. While the amount of ammunition some agencies have sought to buy seems impressive at a glance, it's far less so when spread out over a multi-year contract and over the tens of thousands of armed federal agents who engage in regular firearm training and qualification. And even if federal agencies bought all of the ammunition for which they've recently solicited proposals, it would still amount to only about three percent of total domestic ammunition production.

Link to article http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2013/5/rumor-control-ammo-shortages-revisited!.aspx
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: PABLO DEL NORTE on January 08, 2014, 07:25:11 PM: ??? SO WHERE IS ALL THE .22 AT?? THE FEDS DON'T BUY .22 OR DO THEY , SO WE CAN'T?? :-\
JUST CURIOUS WHAT YA'LL THINK 'CUZ .22's ARE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND!! :(
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: anurud on January 09, 2014, 04:45:09 AM: :-X :-X :-X :-X
Can you answer this Q? (http://solved.5ps.org)
answers (http://www.helpmedb.com/)
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: Rastus on January 09, 2014, 06:35:02 AM: Quote from: PABLO DEL NORTE on January 08, 2014, 07:25:11 PM
??? SO WHERE IS ALL THE .22 AT?? THE FEDS DON'T BUY .22 OR DO THEY , SO WE CAN'T?? :-\
JUST CURIOUS WHAT YA'LL THINK 'CUZ .22's ARE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND!! :(

Two things?

First, I think it is because "Uncle Fudd"...you know, the guys who are much like Zumbo and Metcalf, are finally waking up to the fact that ALL GUNS are on the anti's table. With the revelation that the anti's not only want AR's...they want it all....they now are stocking up on ammo.

Next, people are shooting more today...much more.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: MikeBjerum on January 09, 2014, 11:17:34 AM: Quote from: PABLO DEL NORTE on January 08, 2014, 07:25:11 PM
??? SO WHERE IS ALL THE .22 AT?? THE FEDS DON'T BUY .22 OR DO THEY , SO WE CAN'T?? :-\
JUST CURIOUS WHAT YA'LL THINK 'CUZ .22's ARE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND!! :(

Last night watching Brand X and Allie Cat Barrett, and Brand Z, and Brand W, along with Shooting Gallery and The Best Defense, there was a short segment on one of the AR's out there. It was stated by the company rep that they are selling many .22lr items to government and law enforcement for the same reasons that we are shooting more of it. COST OF TRAINING!
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: billt on January 10, 2014, 04:03:39 AM: The government has NOTHING to do with any of this.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: atmiller on January 15, 2014, 07:15:58 AM: Quote from: PABLO DEL NORTE on January 08, 2014, 07:25:11 PM
??? SO WHERE IS ALL THE .22 AT?? THE FEDS DON'T BUY .22 OR DO THEY , SO WE CAN'T?? :-\
JUST CURIOUS WHAT YA'LL THINK 'CUZ .22's ARE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND!! :(

All of the .22 is being bought by a bunch of old guys that stand at the ammo counter when Walmart gets a shipment in. If there is .22, they call all of there buddies, who come in and buy it all within an hour. Then these guys try to sell it in the local paper or gun show for three to four times what they paid .

Unfortunately they have formed a monopoly, but it won't end until they run out of customers willing to pay $80 for a $20 box of ammo.
Title: Re: Ammo Shortage.....Intentional?
Post by: billt on January 15, 2014, 07:36:30 AM: This entire "shortage" if feeding off itself. I've never in the past seen people waiting in line at Wal-Mart to buy ammo. Now it's a regular occurrence. .22 ammo is the worst. When it comes in these people act like it's food, and they haven't eaten in 9 days. Much the same with powder, primers, bullets, and brass.

This is just going to have to cycle itself out, and that won't happen until these "Johnny Come Lately's" build enough of a stockpile to satisfy themselves from all of the government boogeymen. Before people only bought what they thought they'd NEED. Now they're buying ALL THEY CAN GET. Hussein & Co. has everyone in a panic, along with these school shootings that are coming along every 5 minutes.