The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: JLawson on March 05, 2013, 07:59:02 AM
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FTA:
The centerpiece of President Obama’s gun violence agenda is in peril amid a deadlock among Senate negotiators over how to implement and enforce a proposal requiring background checks for private gun sales.
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/286163-gun-talks-hit-a-snag-in-senate (http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/286163-gun-talks-hit-a-snag-in-senate)
We've got to keep the pressure on... no matter where you live, please contact the 'UBC Gang of Four'. If you think your emails and voicemails are being ignored, then send a fax. As the article says, time for these negotiations is running out and our constant pressure can make a difference.
Tom Coburn (R-OK)
Fax 202-224-6008
Pho 202-224-5754
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contactsenatorcoburn?p=ContactForm (http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contactsenatorcoburn?p=ContactForm)
Mark Kirk (R-IL)
Fax 202-228-4611
Pho 202-224-2854
http://www.kirk.senate.gov/?p=comment_on_legislation (http://www.kirk.senate.gov/?p=comment_on_legislation)
Joe Manchin (D-WV)
Fax 202-228-0002
Pho 202-224-3954
http://www.manchin.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contact-form (http://www.manchin.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contact-form)
Charles Schumer (D-NY)
Fax 202-228-3027
Pho 202-224-6542
http://www.schumer.senate.gov/Contact/contact_chuck.cfm (http://www.schumer.senate.gov/Contact/contact_chuck.cfm)
Let's wear out their fax machines... it may be easy to ignore an email but they can't ignore hundreds or thousands of faxes pouring out of their machines!
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Do away with all NICS and with 4473 forms.
Now where did you want to compromise? I'll take one or the other ...for now.
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Done!
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Here's some good news...
Kirk and Manchin are not backing the legislation Schumer will offer in the Judiciary Committee Thursday.
“We are committed to continuing to work in a bipartisan effort with Sens. Schumer, Coburn and others in order to find a commonsense solution for enhanced background checks, however, Sen. Schumer’s current proposal is one we cannot support as it stands today,” Kirk and Manchin said in a statement Wednesday evening. “Our goal is to pass a bill that will close loopholes in the current background check process in a way that does not burden law-abiding citizens.”
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/286693-schumer-moves-ahead-with-background-check-bill-as-bipartisan-talks-stall (http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/286693-schumer-moves-ahead-with-background-check-bill-as-bipartisan-talks-stall)
To all who contacted the 'UBC Gang of Four' - feel proud that your voice played a role in this outcome.
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There is no need to retain a database of transfers in order to require background checks on all transfers. Here in California we had a law requiring long gun transfers to go through a dealer for decades with no state registration or database. We should not allow them to get away with establishing registration while calling it something else in order to pass it.
California does show very clearly where this will lead. Starting January 1st, we will have long gun registration here (handguns have been registered at time of transfer since 1923) - plus at least some of any number of new laws designed to make owning a gun as close to impossible as possible.
Right now, our hopes are basically limited to a veto of the worst bills by Gov. Brown (whom I would call "mildly pro-gun" - his record is decidedly mixed) AND finding at least 3 Dems who then will defect an refuse to override Brown's veto. After that, it's off to the courts.......
America, learn the lesson well: These people are NEVER satisfied. They will take every opportunity to pass more restrictive laws until you have no gun rights left.
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Here is a workable alternative to NICS
"NICS" vs. "BIDS"
FBI Agents vs. Family gun stores
Big Brother vs. Business Owners
Does the public want background safety checks ("BIDS")
or fascist gun-owner lists ("NICS," the current system)?
"BIDS" is cheaper.
Works better.
No Government Registration Lists.
http://pagenine.typepad.com/page_nine/2013/02/background-checks-vs-gun-owner-lists.html
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How about neither like the Constitution intended ?
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Here is a workable alternative to NICS
"NICS" vs. "BIDS"
NOPE. NADA. NEGATORY. Just plain, NO!
Dump it all. 4473, NICS, FFLs. Take us back to at least 1967.
Next year we'll talk about 1934.
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NOPE. NADA. NEGATORY. Just plain, NO!
Dump it all. 4473, NICS, FFLs. Take us back to at least 1967.
Next year we'll talk about 1934.
Agreed. But if we don't get it all, we will get them to compromise and back out registration to the BIDS system
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Agreed. But if we don't get it all, we will get them to compromise and back out registration to the BIDS system
Wake up .
Have you no spine ?
We are talking about our Constitutional rights.
Not some cheap trinket in an Arab bazaar.
No more compromise.
"Shall not be infringed" means what it says.
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Wake up .
Have you no spine ?
We are talking about our Constitutional rights.
Not some cheap trinket in an Arab bazaar.
No more compromise.
"Shall not be infringed" means what it says.
Sigh...we keep going round and round about this.
I will take any small step in our direction we can get while continuing the fight for it all.
You seem to be saying fight for everything all at once and don't take anything less.
Are you stupid?
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Sigh...we keep going round and round about this.
I will take any small step in our direction we can get while continuing the fight for it all.
You seem to be saying fight for everything all at once and don't take anything less.
Are you stupid?
That's exactly what I'm saying , and no I'm not stupid.
You are if you can't understand the implications of us being the ones with the guns and skill in using them.
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Never, give up, never give in. Oppose all anti-gun proposals, concede NOTHING!!!
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Sigh...we keep going round and round about this.
I will take any small step in our direction we can get while continuing the fight for it all.
You seem to be saying fight for everything all at once and don't take anything less.
Are you stupid?
This! (except for the stupid part). We are in a war of inches. Its a marathon, not a sprint. There is a probably apocraphyl tale of a couple of colonels, one American, one Vietnamese who shared a smoke during a break at the Paris Peace Talks ending the war.
The American colonel says "You realize we won every battle in this war".
His counterpart replied "So what? You still lost the war".
Words of wisdom. We need to keep focused on the final score, not about making the next first down at all costs.
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That's exactly what I'm saying , and no I'm not stupid.
You are if you can't understand the implications of us being the ones with the guns and skill in using them.
Are you honestly saying that anything less than starting an armed conflict to regain our rights is a spineless compromise?
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Are you honestly saying that anything less than starting an armed conflict to regain our rights is a spineless compromise?
It's an option, but when you consider that your opponents are cowards who expect some paid by the hour cop to do what they don't have the courage to do you realize that just the willingness to go to the limit will not only regain your gun rights, but also every other Right that has been slowly eroded over time.
If enough of the people are ready to fight for whats theirs, and show they are willing to FIGHT, not debate, but get out in a position and shoot, then the people you are so afraid of will run away to a more favorable country, like France.
We are free people armed.
We have no need to "negotiate" or "compromise" with any one .
All it takes are courage and resolve.
Where's yours ?
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It's an option, but when you consider that your opponents are cowards who expect some paid by the hour cop to do what they don't have the courage to do you realize that just the willingness to go to the limit will not only regain your gun rights, but also every other Right that has been slowly eroded over time.
If enough of the people are ready to fight for whats theirs, and show they are willing to FIGHT, not debate, but get out in a position and shoot, then the people you are so afraid of will run away to a more favorable country, like France.
We are free people armed.
We have no need to "negotiate" or "compromise" with any one .
All it takes are courage and resolve.
Where's yours ?
I agree that it is an option.
I think maybe we differ in that I don't think a negotiated victory is detrimental to that option.
For instance, I think the negotiated victory that might occur in Utah would be a good thing, even though it is not complete in that it is only one of 50 steps in a complete victory.
True, it might take us a bit farther away from the necessity of a shooting solution, but I don't think that is a bad thing either, as long as our negotiated compromises are reclaiming some part of what we have lost and not giving the other side anything but less infringement.
How that particular action plays out, in getting it passed and the reaction of the feds may do a lot to show how necessary a shooting solution is going to be.
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A "negotiated victory" as you call it, is nothing but a time waster.
All it accomplishes is to postpone decision until the next fight, and the next, and the next.
It is a strategy of cowardice.
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A "negotiated victory" as you call it, is nothing but a time waster.
All it accomplishes is to postpone decision until the next fight, and the next, and the next.
It is a strategy of cowardice.
All the letters to politicians, then, are part of that cowardice since they are directed at achieving "negotiated victory"?
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A "negotiated victory" as you call it, is nothing but a time waster.
All it accomplishes is to postpone decision until the next fight, and the next, and the next.
It is a strategy of cowardice.
Look.
Here are two basic facts.
First, as long as people have a comfortable life with two cars and cable and don't feel oppressed, they won't start a revolution. And they won't thank you for starting one either.
Second, if we can't win an election the idea of winning a revolution is absurd. You sound like the lefties under Bush (the sky is falling, its the end times). But guess what? They organized and won. Thats what we need to do.
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You dumb asses seem to think this is some sort of gentlemanly debate, such as .45 vs 9MM.
Wake up you stupid ba$tards.
You have been in a fight for your damned country for 40 years and you've been to stupid and complacent to see it.
You haven't said anything as the "war on drugs" eroded your rights, you haven't said anything as the socialists in the education industry brainwashed the young, You grumble a little bit when the media become nothing but a propaganda arm of the CPUSA, but only because it cut into the sports reports.
The 2nd Amendment is the last line of defense for free men, I don't care what course cowards take, in fact I spit on them.
As for me, give me Liberty or Death.
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:D
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We can talk about how Universal Background Checks are safe if you have nothing to hide. However, both sides admit that there is no way for Universal Background Checks to be affective without a firearm registry.
Today we have a Bill going through Minnesota that is backed by many gun groups, including Twin Cities Gun Owners & Carry Forum, and the National Rifle Association had a hand in it. This Bill strengthens punishment for those involved with crimes with guns, including straw purchases, and it strengthens the reporting of information for background checks.
I have almost been suckered into this, but then I sleep on it and come back to my stance: Vote No on all new gun control measures! The system is not working, so there why should we keep piecemeal amending it? I have told my legislators that they only Yes vote is a vote to repeal controls. FBI records show that none of the controls have clearly worked. 1968 to present the controls went into affect, and in 2004 one came off, and there is no measurable response one way or another. The 1934 Act shows a drastic drop, but this Bill was focused on organized crime and included many other actions to curb violence - Much like we are calling for now "Enforce the laws on the books rather than adding new ineffective laws."
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I am never for any compromise that gives more controls, but am willing to accept "compromise" that only reduces controls (sorry, Tom).
If we cannot get NICS repealed and we are going to continue to have a check at purchase, then having a system that does not allow any record of who makes the purchase and leaves no possibility for a gun registry should be what we try for.
I suggested this alternative earlier in this thread and it didn't meet with much favor...but I'll mention it again..
It is the BIDS system (Blind Identification Database System). Here is a short description of how it would work.
BIDS does an equal job of preventing prohibited possessors from buying guns. It costs far less -- totally eliminates the expensive call centers. Reduces downtime and delays legitimate dealers and customers must now endure. And it cannot make lists of buyers. Dealers simply reference the encrypted password-protected prohibited possessor list on their local computers with simple volatile search tools, offline. It's like using a computerized yellow pages. The list itself is updated constantly, as it is now.
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Tom is right, not only no more compromise but also a complete rollback of anti-gun laws on the books. I disagree with Tom on the need for armed rebellion now. We should, however, go on the legislative offensive to permanently rollback anti-gun legislation at all levels (federal, state, local) and place any such considerations withing the Constitutional process. That process is torturous AND consistent with our founding principles. Save the armed rebellion for last at the time the American people are behind us. In my opinion, we just ignore all the other laws.
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Tom is right, not only no more compromise but also a complete rollback of anti-gun laws on the books. I disagree with Tom on the need for armed rebellion now. We should, however, go on the legislative offensive to permanently rollback anti-gun legislation at all levels (federal, state, local) and place any such considerations withing the Constitutional process. That process is torturous AND consistent with our founding principles. Save the armed rebellion for last at the time the American people are behind us. In my opinion, we just ignore all the other laws.
You'll never have "the American people" behind you. That would require education and effort on their part. Remember 3%. IF you get that much support, you're lucky. However I do agree with no more compromise. I posed this question elsewhere, but how exactly do you compromise with those who want to take EVERYTHING. You can't. Besides that, every time we have compromised, they just come back and say it's not enough, and want more.
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Tom is right, not only no more compromise but also a complete rollback of anti-gun laws on the books. I disagree with Tom on the need for armed rebellion now. We should, however, go on the legislative offensive to permanently rollback anti-gun legislation at all levels (federal, state, local) and place any such considerations withing the Constitutional process. That process is torturous AND consistent with our founding principles. Save the armed rebellion for last at the time the American people are behind us. In my opinion, we just ignore all the other laws.
Jrlobo, I guess I need to ask you to clarify what you mean by compromise.
Do you mean that you will not support and would be against any lessening of restrictions or restoration of freedom short of the entire rollback during our push for it all?