The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: wtr100 on March 18, 2013, 08:46:04 AM
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Their is a push in scouting to allow openly homosexuals into the organization as leaders and employees. There is a 'Voice of the Scout' survey out on the subject.
I don't for a minute beleive the decesion hasn't already been made but I'm posting a link to the survey anyway. You'll need your son's ID number.
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This survey includes additional question(s) seeking opinions about the potential change to membership standards policy being considered at the National Annual Meeting in May
You will need your membership ID number to register (if you don’t know it the council can help).
Paste the following URL into your browser:
http://scouting.us.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_0lecWOay3bPbczP
I can't imagine allowing openly gay men into the program will do anything good.
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Why? What possible harm could come from allowing homosexuals into scouting? There has already been cases of child molestation by straight males and gay or lesbian does not mean child predator. What would allowing somebody who may have excellent qualification in teaching and outdoor skills do to you personally?
I don't understand why we continually draw a distinction between ourselves. Black, white, gay straight, brown or anything in between, we are all people. Last I checked the US Constitution said "ALL". Not some, not the privileged few, not just the ones who's life style is agreeable, "all".
While I understand that The Boy Scouts of America are a private organization that have the right to discrimination I feel that it violates every ethical fiber of the Boy Scout Law and Oath to exclude those who live differently from us.
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as a eagle scout, I can honestly say, I have np with gays as leaders or as employees. judge the person.
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call me old fashinoed I guess ::)
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What harm can come? Seriously? How about us having the right to choose who we associate with. The right to teach our children what is morally acceptable. I guess we can get rid of the "morally straight" part of the scout oath to make the scouts more progressive and politically correct, because compromising ones values never has a negative effect, right? And then why not let child molesters in? After all, they are part of the "all", just because you may not agree with their choice of lifestyle......
I really don't care if someone is gay or not, go live your life. Just don't expect me to welcome you with open arms and ask an organization to change because you feel offended. Get over it, you want to be involved with kids then go find an organization that will appreciate you.
I am also an eagle scout and my son is in his first year of scouts. I will tell you that if the BSA bends to these people I will not hesitate to turn in my eagle badge and pull my son from scouting, as the organization I was once proud of belonging no longer exists.
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I am so glad my son is no longer of scouting age, but he can be drafted into a military that now allows gays and lesbians. As an adult, I doubt that that bothers him too much. But moral upbringing is and should be a concern for parents of younger children as in the case of morality, it is the parents who are ultimately responsible. Given today's lack of responsibility among parents, however, and their continued increasing reliance on the government to teach "morality" to their children in schools, the handwriting sure enough is on the wall. I would definitely encourage parents of scouting age children to take a stand on this issue, lest the government do this for you too. As for those that like to cite the Constitution's "all", remember that it didn't really mean "all" at the beginning...some were just 3/5 all when it came to be counted for representation and some weren't counted at all! Oh well, guess I am old fashioned too.
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What harm can come? Seriously? How about us having the right to choose who we associate with. The right to teach our children what is morally acceptable. I guess we can get rid of the "morally straight" part of the scout oath to make the scouts more progressive and politically correct, because compromising ones values never has a negative effect, right? And then why not let child molesters in? After all, they are part of the "all", just because you may not agree with their choice of lifestyle......
I really don't care if someone is gay or not, go live your life. Just don't expect me to welcome you with open arms and ask an organization to change because you feel offended. Get over it, you want to be involved with kids then go find an organization that will appreciate you.
This nails it. BSA is a PRIVATE organization funded largely by the Mormon church. As a private organization they should be allowed to decide who is a fit member to add to their staff. I'm sorry but homosexuals do NOT fit with the standards of that organization so tough. If you are homosexual, you don't get in.
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This nails it. BSA is a PRIVATE organization funded largely by the Mormon church. As a private organization they should be allowed to decide who is a fit member to add to their staff. I'm sorry but homosexuals do NOT fit with the standards of that organization so tough. If you are homosexual, you don't get in.
From what I see here, this is the Boy Scouts survey to see what members think of the issue.
The Boy Scouts are going to make this decision whether homosexuals get in or not.
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From what I see here, this is the Boy Scouts survey to see what members think of the issue.
The Boy Scouts are going to make this decision whether homosexuals get in or not.
And that's fine, what I don't want to see is like so many before them, the BSA bowing down to external pressure.
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From what I see here, this is the Boy Scouts survey to see what members think of the issue.
The Boy Scouts are going to make this decision whether homosexuals get in or not.
I don't for a minute think the decision to have gay leaders and employees hasn't already been made but I do want the true feelings of the normal people to be heard
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The Boy Scouts were founded based on a specific set of morals and a particular code of conduct.
Regardless of your opinion of Gays taking it up the azz is not included in either of those founding principles.
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I was a Scout. I know the standards in place when I was a Scout, and I understand the many pressures that have been placed on the Scouts to change. I still remember when Girl Scouts were not good enough for some, so organizations took BSA to court to force them to admit females.
It has been stated here by others that the Boy Scouts of America is a private organization with very clear and understood standards in all areas. That does not mean there have not been lapses by some, but the intent of the small gate and solid fence remains. If you are not a member, not employee or volunteer, butt out, and let the organization continue to strengthen our male youth.
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The Boy Scouts were founded based on a specific set of morals and a particular code of conduct.
Regardless of your opinion of Gays taking it up the azz is not included in either of those founding principles.
This has been the opinion of the Court. Creedal Organizations, those based around a shared set of belifs are held to looser standards than non-creedal groups. Translation: The BSA can get away with things the Rotary Club can't in terms of choosing who gets to be a member since they are brought together by a shared creed. That said, I think the idea that the word "straight" in the Scout motto means what those oppose gays means what they say it does is a joke. Still, it is for the organization to decide that for themselves. If I had a kid in scouts with a gay scoutmaster it wouldn't bother me if he were in a long standing relationship. If not? I'd be volunteering to chaperone every camping trip. But its really no different than some girl's dad being the scoutmaster for a group of girl scouts. You have a heightened awareness, but there's no call for paranoia either.
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At the end of the day its just bigotry. If you want to teach your children to be hateful than so be it, I couldn't care less. I earned my eagle award in four years when most of my leaders said I didn't have a chance. (Joined at 14) The one tarnish to that achievement has been my association with an organization that teaches its members one thing and that practices another. Morality is not taught from a book, it is not inherent, it is based off of a persons understanding of the world around them. Teaching children how to resolve conflict, respect each other and to accept one another for who they are are core principles in the BSA. Excluding somebody based on sexual orientation is contradictory to their teachings and goals, it sends the message that they are an exclusionary club for the social elite. I think America could use many more boy scouts, I think the boy scouts need to give everyone a fair chance.
Personal responsibility shouldn't stop with your belief on firearms.
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JdePietro,
This is an issue of personal beliefs, and the beliefs of a private organization that people join of their own free will. If they are grounded in a set of beliefs concerning lifestyle choices that is up to them. Sometimes we get called bigots for our beliefs, but nobody ever promised standing for something would be easy. If someone does not agree with the Boy Scouts of America, they are free to not join.
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At the end of the day its just bigotry. If you want to teach your children to be hateful than so be it, I couldn't care less. I earned my eagle award in four years when most of my leaders said I didn't have a chance. (Joined at 14) The one tarnish to that achievement has been my association with an organization that teaches its members one thing and that practices another. Morality is not taught from a book, it is not inherent, it is based off of a persons understanding of the world around them. Teaching children how to resolve conflict, respect each other and to accept one another for who they are are core principles in the BSA. Excluding somebody based on sexual orientation is contradictory to their teachings and goals, it sends the message that they are an exclusionary club for the social elite. I think America could use many more boy scouts, I think the boy scouts need to give everyone a fair chance.
Personal responsibility shouldn't stop with your belief on firearms.
As a moral position I agree completely. However, as a libertarian, I do think private grouups have a right to set their own rules. Its like the endless debate between Tom and TAB over whether a business owner can post a no guns sign. On the one hand, carrying is a right. OTOH, his house, his rules, and if you don't like it go elsewhere.
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FQ, as a moral issue it is bigotry, but bigotry is not a bad thing when you are separating the sheep from the goats.
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FQ, as a moral issue it is bigotry, but bigotry is not a bad thing when you are separating the sheep from the goats.
I guess it depends upon your definition of bigotry. Here is one definition.
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, language, socioeconomic status, or other status.
I see no situation where that is good.
I am not saying the Boy Scouts setting their standards and sticking to them is bad, just that you can't defend it by saying bigotry is good.
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I guess it depends upon your definition of bigotry. Here is one definition.
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, language, socioeconomic status, or other status.
I see no situation where that is good.
I am not saying the Boy Scouts setting their standards and sticking to them is bad, just that you can't defend it by saying bigotry is good.
There are 2 examples where at the very least, watchful suspicion is justified.
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There are 2 examples where at the very least, watchful suspicion is justified.
National Origin and Religion.
Point is, the definition says it is based on prejudices not action and goals of a group that are counter to the constitution and rights of others.
Having a dislike for Muslims and Islam because of their teachings and actions is not bigotry.
Having a dislike of Arabs because their skin is too dark and they wear funny clothes is.
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I guess it depends upon your definition of bigotry. Here is one definition.
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, language, socioeconomic status, or other status.
I see no situation where that is good.
I am not saying the Boy Scouts setting their standards and sticking to them is bad, just that you can't defend it by saying bigotry is good.
In essence that is all I was trying to convey, my original question was just asking the OP why he thought discrimination made the scouts better. I have been a member of Scouts For Equality since they were formed, but I have always defended the right of scouts to choose who they let in. I take issue with the policy that bans not so much the policy that allows them to ban.
In 1912 Only a year after they received their charter from congress the BSA faced their first challenge. Can you guess what that was???
Infinite diversity allows for infinite possibilities and they should allow anyone who wishes a chance to prove their moral character. I hope some day we see discrimination against the LBG&T community as distastefully as old Jim Crow laws.
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I hope some day we see discrimination against the LBG&T community as distastefully as old Jim Crow laws.
It will never happen. The reason: You cannot have complete tolerance of deviant sexuality when it goes against religion. Personally I really don't care what you do in your bedroom, but I also find it to be an unnatural act that goes against the design of our creator.
Basically, you can call for tolerance all you want. But you are asking people to be tolerant of behavior that 1. goes against every religion on the planet, and 2. does nothing to further the evolution of the species.
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It will never happen. The reason: You cannot have complete tolerance of deviant sexuality when it goes against religion. Personally I really don't care what you do in your bedroom, but I also find it to be an unnatural act that goes against the design of our creator.
Basically, you can call for tolerance all you want. But you are asking people to be tolerant of behavior that 1. goes against every religion on the planet, and 2. does nothing to further the evolution of the species.
You could say the same thing about cell phones and cable TV, but that doesn't seem to matter. I really don't think orientation is a choice. However, there is that issue of whether the government can, or should intervene. Should the scouts allow gay scout masters, yes. Should the government decide, no. This should be handled on a troop by troop basis. Let the parents decide who they're comfortable with.
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Boy Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.
Everything looks good until you get to the end (no pun intended). So what does "reverent" mean?
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respectful...
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According to usscout.org:
A Scout is Reverent.
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
Perhaps this definition applies to scouting more than the professorial definition from Webster's dictionary?
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According to usscout.org:
A Scout is Reverent.
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
Perhaps this definition applies to scouting more than the professorial definition from Webster's dictionary?
Agreed!
My godson just made Eagle Scout, it was a big deal and he worked his ass of to make that happen! You couldn't find a finer young man then he! I know I'm not impartial but he's really a great young man.....who also has an uncle he loves who's homosexual! Doubt he gives a hoot what anyone thinks either!
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According to usscout.org:
A Scout is Reverent.
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
Perhaps this definition applies to scouting more than the professorial definition from Webster's dictionary?
I'm an Episcopalian. We ordain gays as do a number of other denominations.
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The last I heard National BSA will be making a decision in May during the national meeting. In the mean time they have committees representing each faith to help make the decision .
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It will never happen. The reason: You cannot have complete tolerance of deviant sexuality when it goes against religion. Personally I really don't care what you do in your bedroom, but I also find it to be an unnatural act that goes against the design of our creator.
Basically, you can call for tolerance all you want. But you are asking people to be tolerant of behavior that 1. goes against every religion on the planet, and 2. does nothing to further the evolution of the species.
Goes against "your interpretation" of "Your creator".
That same creator that says love all, if they are not against you then they are for you, bacon and shrimp is an abomination and so on.
It does not go against every religion on the planet, UCC's and the like hold not ill towards them, nor do Budist or the... Wait for it... Pagans!!! Ahhh....
I guess all of the art, poety, theater and entertainment have never served humanity in any good sense.
Also, Second time I think in recent history Tom and I agree. One of us is getting soft... ;D
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I'm not great with words but here it goes. Would it be a good idea to send a boy camping with the girl scouts, or send a girl with the boy scouts? Its the same basic premise with gays and boy scouts. You say that a gay boy wont hit on a straight boy because the gay boy knows he has no chance, however I bet when you were that age you hit on girls you knew you had no chance with. Even if ou didn't try, I bet she caught you starring. It may just be in my mind but I believe its the same concept.
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The last I heard National BSA will be making a decision in May during the national meeting. In the mean time they have committees representing each faith to help make the decision .
The proposal on the table is to allow each chartering organization (troops are sponsored by a local church or equivalent) to decide what best serves their community. This is in fact formalizing what already occurs as most troops on CA have a don't ask don't tell practice. They took this to the national board at the beginning of the year and the board members asked for a better understanding of what the sponsors, leaders and scouts actually wanted. Thus the survey was created.
It is my understanding that while the bad press is an issue and funding has suffered some (not as much as some outsiders would wish) this is more driven by a desire to make the policy more consistent with the diversity of opinion within scouting and respect individual troops rights to make the best decision for themselves.
Child molesting is serious issue and I can tell you that there is not an organization that has a better program to stop it than BSA. Good training for the leaders, very good training for the scouts. A 2 deep leadership policy that REQUIRES at ALL TIMES that no adult is alone with a scout EVER (except your own son). And I mean EVER! If you think this is easy, then yo need to get out more. No other youth group I know of is this thorough, certainly not sports! They even have separate shower facilities for men and boys at the bigger camps! Not something I imagined when I was a scout!
BSA was tracking abuse issues before most of society was even willing to talk about it. Google the media circus around the old (1970-80s) suspected abusers files that BSA released last year. The media could not really find a way to paint the BSA in a bad light for being so much more proactive about tracking and stopping it than the rest of society so mostly just reported it and moved on.
How about we turn down the flamethrowers and appreciate that they are a very good group trying to address a very complex issue in the best way they can within the limits of their control within a totally screwed up society. Kind of like choosing to take personal responsibility for your family's safety and carry a CCW.
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JoeG,
I spent four wonderful years in the BSA. I joined when I was 14 and still managed to earn my Eagle award and serve as Senior Patrol Leader as well as a host of other positions. My time was great! The BSA is a great organization and I don't think I or anyone ever spoke an ill word towards them. As far as Child Abuse goes, I don't think it has anything to do with the issue at hand other than the BSA handled that issue brilliantly and I am pretty sure they are going to move in favor of a good decision on this.
Because the BSA is such a great organization I think it makes it that more appealing for a child who may have confidence issues to join and learn skills and develop friendships that can help him through those rough years as a teenager.
The comment about gay boys making passes at other boys is actually really revealing. If you had/have a daughter than you should know that she is well aware that no matter where she goes, somebody will make a passing comment, stare or even approach her with the intent to flirt and or secure a date. Women deal with this issue on a constant and daily basis, they have learned to ignore the advances and deal with the gawking. Its funny that you worry about how boys will react, is that to say that men shouldn't have to parry off such attacks, that men so weak of mind won't be able to put up with feeling like a teenage girl for a change?
Oh society, we see not the board in or own eye but so easily does the smallest of spec show up in our neighbors. ::)
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Lead a Coed Explorer post for several years.
Kids from the same High School ranging in age from 14 to 18.
We did a weekend camp out once a month while school was in session and a two week canoe trip to Canada each summer.
What I saw was a positive change in each sex's view of the opposite.
These girls were tough, didn't shirk and pulled their share as much they were able. The guys learned a respect, and not a grudging one, for them and I expect, looked at them more so as equals than before.
The girls, while initially concerned, in pre-trip planning, about how the guys would behave out in the woods for two weeks, found instead that they were treated as part of the "team" and got help when needed, as did any member of that team.
From what I saw, there was just positive results from all of this.
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JoeG,
I spent four wonderful years in the BSA. I joined when I was 14 and still managed to earn my Eagle award and serve as Senior Patrol Leader as well as a host of other positions. My time was great! The BSA is a great organization and I don't think I or anyone ever spoke an ill word towards them. As far as Child Abuse goes, I don't think it has anything to do with the issue at hand other than the BSA handled that issue brilliantly and I am pretty sure they are going to move in favor of a good decision on this.
Because the BSA is such a great organization I think it makes it that more appealing for a child who may have confidence issues to join and learn skills and develop friendships that can help him through those rough years as a teenager.
The comment about gay boys making passes at other boys is actually really revealing. If you had/have a daughter than you should know that she is well aware that no matter where she goes, somebody will make a passing comment, stare or even approach her with the intent to flirt and or secure a date. Women deal with this issue on a constant and daily basis, they have learned to ignore the advances and deal with the gawking. Its funny that you worry about how boys will react, is that to say that men shouldn't have to parry off such attacks, that men so weak of mind won't be able to put up with feeling like a teenage girl for a change?
Oh society, we see not the board in or own eye but so easily does the smallest of spec show up in our neighbors. ::)
I'm just going off of where I'm from. Around here if a gay guy hit on a straight guy here, there would probably be an ass whoopin. You'r in Pennsylvania and I'm in west Texas. What works up there, may not work here and what works here may not work up there. I'm not saying we're closed minded but beliefs are alot different depending on where you are. The best thing I have heard is to let each chapter decide how to handle it.
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Lead a Coed Explorer post for several years.
Kids from the same High School ranging in age from 14 to 18.
We did a weekend camp out once a month while school was in session and a two week canoe trip to Canada each summer.
What I saw was a positive change in each sex's view of the opposite.
These girls were tough, didn't shirk and pulled their share as much they were able. The guys learned a respect, and not a grudging one, for them and I expect, looked at them more so as equals than before.
The girls, while initially concerned, in pre-trip planning, about how the guys would behave out in the woods for two weeks, found instead that they were treated as part of the "team" and got help when needed, as did any member of that team.
From what I saw, there was just positive results from all of this.
Yeah. I I was an explorer and it was coed, no problems. Likewise I went to Outward Bound when I was 15, again co-ed and no trouble at all.
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Yeah. I I was an explorer and it was coed, no problems. Likewise I went to Outward Bound when I was 15, again co-ed and no trouble at all.
It must be different there then it is here, because when I was that age and the adults turned their backs alot of stuff happened.
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It must be different there then it is here, because when I was that age and the adults turned their backs alot of stuff happened.
I was in the police explorers. We were all well mannered geeks. As to Outward Bound? They made sure we were too damn tired at the end of the day to try anything. It was like boot camp without the yelling. ;D
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I was in the police explorers. We were all well mannered geeks. As to Outward Bound? They made sure we were too damn tired at the end of the day to try anything. It was like boot camp without the yelling. ;D
Maybe that was the problem, we weren't too tired.