The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: JC5123 on March 19, 2013, 03:57:59 PM
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I'm throwing this out to you guys for expert analysis and opinion. My girlfriend and I have an ongoing dispute about whether or not to have a round chambered when you are carrying. My thought is that unless you have one in the chamber, you might as well carry a billy club. Attacks happen so fast that even with one in the tube, you may be lucky to get a shot off fast enough to not be injured. This video makes that point very well.
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Always a round in the chamber...........always.
JMHO, FWIW.
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Said it once before.
If you don't carry one in the chamber you are saying:
Make your move. I'll count to two before I shoot.
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My thoughts exactly. So anyone have any suggestions on how I get my GF to see it this way?
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The act of chambering a round could be construed as an overt act of aggression on the part of the (up to then) victim with the bad guy claiming that he was in fear for his life . I always carry a round in the chamber,cocked and locked for the 1911 and HiPower.Plus what if you get jumped and are unable to chamber a round because your off hand is pinned or injured?
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Find a timer and time these two events.
Have her pick up the gun off a table and chamber a round and fire at a target 6 ft away.
Same thing with a round in the chamber.
The difference is how much time she is willing to spot her assailant.
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Always a round in the chamber...........always.
JMHO, FWIW.
^^^THIS^^^
and all the rest of the posts too!!
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Does that advice apply to a DA revolver as well?
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The only gun that I wouldn't carry a round under the hammer would be a Single action revolver like a Colt/Clone or Ruger 3 screw that hasn't had the update done to it.
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What Majer said.
When you need a gun to go bang, you need it to go bang NOW , not a couple seconds from now.
How to convince the GF ?
Grab one of her arms and ask how she plans on chambering a round one handed .
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Action almost ALWAYS beats reaction. If you need to shoot you are already behind the time curve. If the bad guy is at bad breath distance you may need that free hand to fend him off. If you whip out the roscoe and chamber a round and end up not shooting, you may have placed your self in legal trouble. Just a quick recap but it fits. Bottom line is NEVER carry the piece unchambered.
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If you are not going to carry it loaded why carry it at all?
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what they said. Now my hd does not have one in the chamber, but thats more to do with little ones getting a hold of it.
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And unless you practice chambering a round, a lot, in an emergency you'll probably be squeezing the trigger on an empty chamber and wondering why the gun isn't going off.
Have her read Blink by Malcolm Gladwell for an understanding of how the body and mind react in a threat situation. Defense needs to be simple and swift. The more steps involved the less likely they'll get completed in time.
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Whats wrong with having her carry a revolver? Solves the problem. Pull the trigger and it goes bang even if the hammer rests on an empty chamber.
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Whats wrong with having her carry a revolver? Solves the problem. Pull the trigger and it goes bang even if the hammer rests on an empty chamber.
I've thought of that. I'll suggest that as a last resort. I just know that she is trained and comfortable with her Glock. So getting her to switch to a revolver may not go over well. She usually carries in her purse, and is worried about an accidental discharge. Personally I'm thinking that if she went from sub compact to full compact and carried on her body she would re-think her position.
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I've thought of that. I'll suggest that as a last resort. I just know that she is trained and comfortable with her Glock. So getting her to switch to a revolver may not go over well. She usually carries in her purse, and is worried about an accidental discharge. Personally I'm thinking that if she went from sub compact to full compact and carried on her body she would re-think her position.
I don't think I would use one of these, but.......... there is this.... for those concerned about the factory Glock trigger block not preventing an AD.
Of course, extra training is required in the presentation of the weapon.
http://www.clipdraw.com/store/index.php?rn=396&action=show_detail
(http://www.clipdraw.com/images/saf-t-blok/stbright.jpg)
(http://www.clipdraw.com/images/saf-t-blok/stbejects.gif)
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I leave the rifles/shotguns in my house unchambered, safety off (cruiser ready in cop speak). But my EDC? Its locked and loaded. If I ever need it? I need it now, not in two seconds. If I have time to chamber a round, I have time to run. But I won't have time to do either as the BG always has the inititive. If your GF is concerned about safety sell her on the Glock or a DA revolver. They won't go bang without you pulling the trigger.
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JC, If she is worried about AD's carrying in the purse, make sure she uses a GOOD pocket holster and places it in a DEDICATED pocket of her purse where nothing else is carried. Several mfgrs. make very stylish bags with quick access pockets(Galco).
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JC, If she is worried about AD's carrying in the purse, make sure she uses a GOOD pocket holster and places it in a DEDICATED pocket of her purse where nothing else is carried. Several mfgrs. make very stylish bags with quick access pockets(Galco).
^^^^^^^^^^^^-This-^^^^^^^^^^^^
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I've thought of that. I'll suggest that as a last resort. I just know that she is trained and comfortable with her Glock. So getting her to switch to a revolver may not go over well. She usually carries in her purse, and is worried about an accidental discharge. Personally I'm thinking that if she went from sub compact to full compact and carried on her body she would re-think her position.
That is what S&W made the 500 magnum for. Put it in her purse and let her hit the bad guy with the purse :o
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Or you could just get a gun with 1 or more safetys. a 1911 needs 3 things to go bang, a glock only one.
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Or you could just get a gun with 1 or more safetys. a 1911 needs 3 things to go bang, a glock only one.
That is an issue I have with the Glock, M&P and XD. The trigger safety is a little too easy to disengage. Good firearm safety is always important, but the bang switch on these guns are ...
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That is an issue I have with the Glock, M&P and XD. The trigger safety is a little too easy to disengage. Good firearm safety is always important, but the bang switch on these guns are ...
And that is where her fear comes from. I "modified" her purse in such a way that she has a pocked with a mounted Thumb Drive Holster in there, so something hooking the bang switch isn't really a concern. I don't have anything more than a decocker on either of my main pistols, but I carry IWB and am just simply more comfortable. I think in the end I need to convince her to carry on her body. I think that would alleviate the fear of hooking the trigger.
I've also got us signed up for another pistol class in a few weeks, so maybe more training will help too. Gonna be a good shooting year! I'm signed up for 2 sniper competitions, 2 pistol classes, 2 carbine classes, and a shotgun class, and it's only March!
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As long as she has a good sturdy kydex or heavy leather holster that covers the trigger, and she is well practiced in good holstering skills, she will be fine with any firearm in good repair.
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The xd has a grip safety. The m&p and xd both have options for a thumb safety. I understand the idea that simple is better, but I also understand that people do dumb things. it would be intresting to see numbers on the number of nd with guns with out compared to those with safetys. don't get me wrong, ADs do happen, but they are rare and often are cuased by equipment failure.
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Not to annoy the Glock fans but the lack of safeties beyond the trigger has always bothered me as a professional safety dude. I know the statistics do not show a higher AD rate but I like the idea of redundant safeties probably due to the way we structure safety programs in industry with 3 redundant safe practices to avoid injuries. It allows me to get a warning alarm when the knucklehead violates 1 or 2 steps without serious damage or to point out that firing the asshole is warranted since he went out of his way to do 3 things wrong! If your brain doesn't like the answer, you won't do it daily. Logical argument is not very powerful in the face of instinctive reluctance.
I like the 1911 thumb safety as it is totally instinctive to me on draw and presentation. It was one reason to try the Ruger SR9 which I think is a great choice. Haven't shot the XD but the grip safety seems to meet the same need.
I would structure the discussion with her this way: "What would it take for you to feel comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber?" Long Pause for her well considered answer... "Lets try that." One of my constant goals as a safety dude is to get the user to create the solutions so they own it. This has the added benefit of needing to buy a new gun!
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Always a round in the chamber and I carry a Glock daily. The only thing that is going to cause the firearm to go bang is once the trigger has been depressed.
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Besides a round in the chamber, she needs to move from his line of movement and NOT necessarily back. Make him shift his forward movement to the side and try to minimize the possible contact with the blade. Two shots may not be enough to stop the attacker. This is practice we all need. A willing Wife is a good thing.
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I hope I don't sound stupid but if I'm carrying I carry on my belt, bag/off body, or shoulder holster I've never pocket carried. I assume with pocket carry it takes longer to draw so as Mr. Bane says you have to go to the gun sooner. But is there a higher risk or potential for AD with pocket carry?
I would think its one of the carry methods like off body that its a must to have a round chambered. No Israeli carry when it comes to deep concealment carry do to added time to draw. But do you ever feel nervous about a pocket carry in your front jean pocket or shorts. Just wondering.
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I carry Glocks (usually, a 26), and I always carry a round in the chamber. I feel very comfortable, confidant, and safe. I usually carry iwb in a Crossbreed, but also occasionally carry in a pocket or owb. I typically use the safety on guns that have them; however, I prefer not having them. In an emergency, I don't want to have to worry about putting a round in the chamber or taking a safety off. It also helps when you have capable but less experienced person around; if they need it, all they have to worry about is target id, aiming and trigger control. With that said, to each their own; whatever, makes them most comfortable.
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I hope I don't sound stupid but if I'm carrying I carry on my belt, bag/off body, or shoulder holster I've never pocket carried. I assume with pocket carry it takes longer to draw so as Mr. Bane says you have to go to the gun sooner. But is there a higher risk or potential for AD with pocket carry?
I would think its one of the carry methods like off body that its a must to have a round chambered. No Israeli carry when it comes to deep concealment carry do to added time to draw. But do you ever feel nervous about a pocket carry in your front jean pocket or shorts. Just wondering.
I pocket carry along with IWB, and in most circumstances I believe the pocket gun will be the one I would respond with.
When walking outside, I have one hand in my pocket holding the gun, a Ruger LCP, ready to remove it from the holster....so, yeah, I go to the gun earlier because I'm already there.
I even started carrying a second LCP so I could carry something in my strong hand if needed and still have a hand on an LCP....besides, it also is a NY reload for the LCP.
A warning note: A round that is repeatedly stripped from the magazine and fed into the chamber will most likely have a set back of the bullet in the case due to repeated impacts with the feed ramp.
There are a few ways to avoid this..
1: rotate rounds in the magazine so no round gets excessive feeding
2: shoot often enough that the rounds are spent before set back becomes a problem
3: manually insert the the +1 round back into the chamber with the slide locked open and release the slide.
1 is a PITA, 2 is great if it is always possible and 3 has some drawbacks - the ejector might not engage and/or the ejector/case might be damaged in the process if there is a tight fit for the ejector at the chamber.
A visual chamber check after loading the round will verify if the ejector is engaged or not
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I prefer to have my primary on my hip either iwb or owb because my instinct is to reach there first. In winter, I occasionally carry the 26 in a coat pocket and my 19 on my hip. The 26 stands a good chance of being first drawn since my hand is often in my pocket already. But, the 19 would be drawn if my hand was out of my pocket. Pants pocket generally only occurs if I'm out I'm the yard it just making a quick/close trip to the store. Pants pocket draw while STANDING is fairly quick, but not instinctual for me. Either way, a round is chambered.
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3: manually insert the the +1 round back into the chamber with the slide locked open and release the slide.
1 is a PITA, 2 is great if it is always possible and 3 has some drawbacks - the ejector might not engage and/or the ejector/case might be damaged in the process if there is a tight fit for the ejector at the chamber.
A visual chamber check after loading the round will verify if the ejector is engaged or not
Damaging the extractor is more than a drawback, it means a DOA gun and/or a guaranteed jam.
You can cycle the slide by hand slowly and not have the round bang into the feed ramp. Just make sure you seat the round fully in the chamber and the slide is in battery when you are done.
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or just do what I do and shoot them up every couple of weeks. Granted its been a few months since I have been able to do that. way too hard to get sd ammo these days. Its just easier to rotate at this point.