The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: fatbaldguy on April 21, 2013, 06:28:50 PM
-
Sorry, this was just this week in Massachusetts.
-
could they be doing this under the Patriot Act??
-
My how times have changed.
Willkommen An Die Neuen Amerika...
And the sheeple cheered!!!!!
-
This video really has disturbed me. Normally I'll give the cops the benefit of the doubt, especially in extreme situations like what we saw this week. But to remove citizens like this from their own home? Why are law abiding citizens treated like terrorists/criminals? Hopefully there was more to this story but that seems unlikely at this point. It's sad to think that maybe our country just died on the very anniversary, April 19th, when our country was born just a few miles up Route 2.
I don't think I would be able to remain calm if this happened to my family.
-
Disturbing indeed!
I'm always armed when I'm home, that day I threw the snub in the glove box with two speed strips and an extra box of Hydroshocks just because of what was happening in Boston. I imagine I'd have gotten pretty roughed up if they came to my door but the dragnet didn't reach my little burg. I've been wondering if I'd have been arrested with a legally owned and licensed handgun on my person when they kicked in my door!
-
Disturbing indeed!
I'm always armed when I'm home, that day I threw the snub in the glove box with two speed strips and an extra box of Hydroshocks just because of what was happening in Boston. I imagine I'd have gotten pretty roughed up if they came to my door but the dragnet didn't reach my little burg. I've been wondering if I'd have been arrested with a legally owned and licensed handgun on my person when they kicked in my door!
I quit throwing my 45 in the glove box and just left it in the holster at work. I've carried more than I've left in the car but I started feeling guilty... NOT ANY MORE! >:(
-
Aside from the Jack Booted Thug aspect of this whole event, I got another impression.
Watching the armored cars loaded with government agents in SWAT gear, I saw that they were doing everything possible to insure their safety. Tactical weapons, perhaps full-auto, body armor, standard capacity magazines with spares in carriers and traveling in squads. Nothing is excessive in protecting themselves from threats loose in the city...including rousting citizens from their homes at gunpoint. I do wonder if anyone was asked to present their papers?
Now, these are agents of the same government that is acting to be sure the innocent citizens have nothing to protect themselves except baseball bats, golf clubs or bare hands.
If it is deemed necessary to go to these extremes to ensure the protection agents of the government, why is it deemed necessary to go to the extremes of violating the Constitution to ensure the citizens are unprotected?
-
Do you guys have a better way to find unexploded ordnance (the suspects were tossing them out while being chased, not like they had GPS markers to where they went) and find a single person contained in a 4-5 block radius with the whole world watching, and second guessing your every move?
Is it a violation of your rights if you invite the officers in? NO. Sure they're armed but they still had to ask for permission to enter a private residence. The home owner had to LET them in. If you have nothing to hide and they ask, it's still up to you to let them in or not. If you say no, and they force there way in, you get to own part of the city, since they have to the prove that they had probable cause a "resonable person" would believe the suspect was in the residence, or there and exegent circumstances (they have to hear screaming ect). A random or general sweep doesn't, and hasn't, stood up in court.
-
Oh...yeah...law enforcement always follow those laws.
Like the little old lady in New Orleans who was body slammed into a wall a few times by a 200 lb. police officer when she said she had a hand gun for protection. Her gun was taken too.
Look at how those folks where leaving the house....nothing in that was voluntary. They were reminded to keep their hands in the air and hustled down the street when they moved to slow for the officers.
They might end up owning the city, but that still doesn't change the fact that the officers are acting heavyhandedly .
-
Do you know that for FACT, or just guessing from the news footage?
-
Do you guys have a better way to find unexploded ordnance (the suspects were tossing them out while being chased, not like they had GPS markers to where they went) and find a single person contained in a 4-5 block radius with the whole world watching, and second guessing your every move?
Is it a violation of your rights if you invite the officers in? NO. Sure they're armed but they still had to ask for permission to enter a private residence. The home owner had to LET them in. If you have nothing to hide and they ask, it's still up to you to let them in or not. If you say no, and they force there way in, you get to own part of the city, since they have to the prove that they had probable cause a "resonable person" would believe the suspect was in the residence, or there and exegent circumstances (they have to hear screaming ect). A random or general sweep doesn't, and hasn't, stood up in court.
But that all is a load of crap because the cops , feds, and national guard, with their APC's, helicopters, and satellites didn't find squat.
But since you're OK with it you'll be housing 4 of them starting tomorrow at your expense.
-
But that all is a load of crap because the cops , feds, and national guard, with their APC's, helicopters, and satellites didn't find squat.
But since you're OK with it you'll be housing 4 of them starting tomorrow at your expense.
Already house 3 :) OK not anymore, I retired
-
Apparently you don't get the 3rd Amendment any better than you do the 4th.
-
Apparently you don't get the 3rd Amendment any better than you do the 4th.
Obviously neither do you if you say that.
-
How's this scenario;
As I've already stated, if they'd come to my door, I'd be armed with at least a handgun. I, knowing what's going on, admit them freely into my home as they frisk me, find my sidearm and then slam me to the ground since I'm a potential bad guy with a gun. Do you think they give a rats ass that I'm a license gun owner, legally carrying a handgun in my own home?
No, I'm just another bad guy with a gun and their so jacked up it would get me beaten at least if I even try to suggest otherwise. I live here...I've mentioned before that the BPD ain't much better than Chicago...they've been corrupt thugs for a half century or better!
This is wrong...period, and the people applaud!
-
Matt Bracken analysis at 2:00
The DHS post I made referencing "No-Hesitation" targets....Kinda makes you go Hmmm....
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/lock3_zpse93d0036.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/twyacht/media/lock3_zpse93d0036.jpg.html)
Hands Up,
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/5171fbc55621a-image_zpsbeb3ce4b.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/twyacht/media/5171fbc55621a-image_zpsbeb3ce4b.jpg.html)
Hands Up,...
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/screen-shot-2013-04-16-at-11-45-09-pm_zpsa4563465.png) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/twyacht/media/screen-shot-2013-04-16-at-11-45-09-pm_zpsa4563465.png.html)
Hands Up.....
This was Post- Katrina on steroids, and is not going to end well.
-
At least the cop in the Hands Up photo didn't have his finger on the trigger...I wonder if everyone with a gun pointed at her or ready to point at her were doing the same.
And I wonder what might have happened if she had slipped trying to hurry down the steps with her hands in the air...a sudden move to grab for the rail might not end so well.
-
Do you guys have a better way to find unexploded ordnance (the suspects were tossing them out while being chased, not like they had GPS markers to where they went) and find a single person contained in a 4-5 block radius with the whole world watching, and second guessing your every move?
Is it a violation of your rights if you invite the officers in? NO. Sure they're armed but they still had to ask for permission to enter a private residence. The home owner had to LET them in. If you have nothing to hide and they ask, it's still up to you to let them in or not. If you say no, and they force there way in, you get to own part of the city, since they have to the prove that they had probable cause a "resonable person" would believe the suspect was in the residence, or there and exegent circumstances (they have to hear screaming ect). A random or general sweep doesn't, and hasn't, stood up in court.
I don't see why the the "officer" had to have a firearm pointed in the face of the resident when the door was opened.
I don't see why the residents should have been treated as suspects and escorted from said residence by force and/or at gunpoint. They certainly did NOT fit the description of the suspect.
From the perspective of the person filming the video, the LEO's and FLEA's forced the residents out without warrants or reasonable cause.
Had the same happened in my relatively free state, at my home, where I am armed most of the time, I at the very least would be dead.
-
I don't see why the the "officer" had to have a firearm pointed in the face of the resident when the door was opened.
I don't see why the residents should have been treated as suspects and escorted from said residence by force and/or at gunpoint. They certainly did NOT fit the description of the suspect.
From the perspective of the person filming the video, the LEO's and FLEA's forced the residents out without warrants or reasonable cause.
Had the same happened in my relatively free state, at my home, where I am armed most of the time, I at the very least would be dead.
And there in lies my issue, none of you were actually THERE so you are basing your complaint on assumptions that may or may not be true.
I ask again, with all this theoretical knowledge of police procedure and Constitutional law, if you were BPD what would you have done differently? You can armchair quarterback all you want but if they had done anything different and the younger kid hadn't shot himself and been holed up in one of those houses the outcome would have been MUCH different.
-
And there in lies my issue, none of you were actually THERE so you are basing your complaint on assumptions that may or may not be true.
I ask again, with all this theoretical knowledge of police procedure and Constitutional law, if you were BPD what would you have done differently? You can armchair quarterback all you want but if they had done anything different and the younger kid hadn't shot himself and been holed up in one of those houses the outcome would have been MUCH different.
Jnevis,
Marshal law wasn't ordered and having not read the Patriot Act, all I personally have to fall back on is the Constitution. From what I've seen and read on the local news (I live 30-40 miles from the affected areas), folks weren't given notice or served warrants while police asked them for entrance into their homes. Was consent given? This video shows that people were removed from their homes at the hands or armed men! Did they show their badges? Did they prove who they were? Were the residents compelled to follow orders from armed men? I can't answer any of these questions personally but I'd bet my yearly salary that they weren't given a thought of their 4th Amendment right and quite frankly, most of the folks I know here in MA haven't even read the Bill of Rights even though their direct ancestors wrote the document with their own blood!
-
This is Gestapo tactics jn.....This is a SWAT teams, SRT's wet dream. Free reign. GET THE BAD GUY!!!!....ANY suspicion, any high impact probability is exploited to the detrement of the long haired white women, or overweight dudes following orders to "shelter in place".
Given your background, I can understand that a loyalty is to back the LEO's that "did what was needed" to pursue, and secure the perimeter.
It's a slippery slope that we're on....After the post-Katrina BS, many vowed and than won, the subsequent lawsuit that followed, to not let this happen again....
But it did.....in spades.....and the sheeple went along with it....and cheered. Over ONE 19 year old. or ONE Chris Dorner.
This would not have happened in Montana, the Carolina's, most of the Southern States, and Central & Northern Florida.
We are out of phase as a nation, and it is wrong.
-
That still doesn't answer my original question. There is no "good" option here. The cops need to find an armed suspect that has already set off a device, thrown grenades and shot at cops. They don't know what condition the guy is in. Does he have a hostage, more explosives? I don't think any of you could have done any better with the information you had. Did they go in a heavy when they may not have needed to? Sure. You all spout off how you'd have a gun and defend your home. Isn't that what they were doing, just a lot more of them?
One 19 y/o with an unknown quantity of explosives, or a well armed former police officer, yes, I do think that given the same scenario ANYWHERE else in the US the results would have been similar.
TW you bring up my background, I deal with 4th Amendment issues on a fairly regular basis even now. Some of the things I work on we have to get approval from the lawyers before we can show it to the engineers and operators.
You don't even KNOW what Gestapo tactics really are. We live in an open society and so there is a constant balacing act to weight personal freedoms to threats. Try spending some time in China, Russia, or even Israel. There are real threats out there and there is no amount of "feel good" BS that is going to stop a dedicated terrorist from causing harm. You all applauded the NRA's push for an armed somebody in schools but then complain when the police have to look for a threat they've positively identified. I keep saying it, but you can't have it both ways. The only way to stop a terrorist is to find them before they attack. Otherwise you're just picking up the pieces, just like calling the cops after the robbery. We are eventually going to either have to change how we operatoe as a nation or we are going to keep having bombs go off.
-
Well, jnevis, you make some points about this being the only way to get the job done with police.
In my opinion they are not good points.
If the only way for the police to do their job is for them to act like Jack Booted Thugs, then my solution is to get rid of the cops.
I've always said I'd rather live in anarchy than a dictatorship, and a dictatorship is where this is heading.
Did you see the video some time ago about the ex-service man who was killed by police?
The innocent citizen responded to his front door being kicked in by getting his AR and confronting the intruders. He was shot dead with an over abundance of firepower, over 100 rounds fired. He was found still alive with his AR in his hands with the safety on. He had never fired his weapon. He died in that hallway as the police would not allow the EMTs to enter for 20 minutes...not sure what would motivate that refusal of life saving aid.
Now, without seeing what happened before the door was kicked in, I cannot say how justified that action was.
BUT...the video clearly shows one of the officers not involved in the entry, but who was standing out front running up to the door behind the entry team, sticking his handgun in the door and firing off a few rounds.
I can think of several reasons for an individual to want to "get in on the kill" but none of them are near what I would want to see from a Police Officer.
I can't help but suspect that those 100s of rounds fired came from that same attitude.
Now I see how the house to house search went in Watertown and cannot help but suspect that same attitude at work here.
And, as you say, they had the whole world watching and that could be the only reason innocents weren't gunned down instead of just having their rights trampled.
-
That still doesn't answer my original question. There is no "good" option here. The cops need to find an armed suspect that has already set off a device, thrown grenades and shot at cops. They don't know what condition the guy is in. Does he have a hostage, more explosives? I don't think any of you could have done any better with the information you had. Did they go in a heavy when they may not have needed to? Sure. You all spout off how you'd have a gun and defend your home. Isn't that what they were doing, just a lot more of them?
One 19 y/o with an unknown quantity of explosives, or a well armed former police officer, yes, I do think that given the same scenario ANYWHERE else in the US the results would have been similar.
TW you bring up my background, I deal with 4th Amendment issues on a fairly regular basis even now. Some of the things I work on we have to get approval from the lawyers before we can show it to the engineers and operators.
You don't even KNOW what Gestapo tactics really are. We live in an open society and so there is a constant balacing act to weight personal freedoms to threats. Try spending some time in China, Russia, or even Israel. There are real threats out there and there is no amount of "feel good" BS that is going to stop a dedicated terrorist from causing harm. You all applauded the NRA's push for an armed somebody in schools but then complain when the police have to look for a threat they've positively identified. I keep saying it, but you can't have it both ways. The only way to stop a terrorist is to find them before they attack. Otherwise you're just picking up the pieces, just like calling the cops after the robbery. We are eventually going to either have to change how we operatoe as a nation or we are going to keep having bombs go off.
Tough shitsky.
Citizens Rights trump your "officer safety".
Or do you think the law only applies when it's convenient ?
-
Tough shitsky.
Citizens Rights trump your "officer safety".
Or do you think the law only applies when it's convenient ?
This is not just "officer safety" since in this case specifically there is an identified threat to personal property and PUBLIC safety.
I can ask you the same question.
Tom- you're so full of it you can't even fathom other points of view, let alone think of it yourself. You are basically DiFi's poster boy for "right wing radical."
-
I can ask you the same question.
Tom- you're so full of it you can't even fathom other points of view, let alone think of it yourself. You are basically DiFi's poster boy for "right wing radical."
Before you get your panties in a bunch, if I thought anyone on here was capable of more than running thier mouth, I would have pulled my membership a LONG time ago. Not loosing MY job over an internet forum sorry.
-
, if I thought anyone on here was capable of more than running thier mouth,
I've been fired upon, and I've fired back. My pucker string was so tight I couldn't crap for days. I've been through multiple types of shooter training classes. I decided I didn't like living looking over my shoulder, so I went elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'm not capable of more than running my mouth. I'm just cranky enough to not put up with any of 'that' sh!t anymore. Come in my house by force, uninvited, and lead will fly. Count on it. I don't care who you are or what agency you might represent.
Will I die? Probably. Nobody gets out of here alive anyway.
-
The police agencies around the country have steadily become more and more militarized. The days of the J. Edgar Hoover FBI, ATF, etc,......used to wear suits, now they wear MOLLE, with chest rigs and SPEC OPS military weapons, and all the flash bangs they can carry in their military vehicles.
Boston was not under lock-down, in essence it was under Martial Law. No business, no transportation, no travel, and not all those house to house searches had consent or a warrant. jn, you know it and we know it.
If this is the "new" pattern of LEO justification for "public safety", we got a problem. And I damn well know what Gestapo tactics are.
If my Great Grandfather were still alive in Hamburg, you could ask him how much der Fuerher paid him for his Duesenberg that was confiscated/stolen from him by some members of the Bundespolizei.
-
This is not just "officer safety" since in this case specifically there is an identified threat to personal property and PUBLIC safety.
I can ask you the same question.
Tom- you're so full of it you can't even fathom other points of view, let alone think of it yourself. You are basically DiFi's poster boy for "right wing radical."
Actually I'm a moderate.
It's just that your so brainwashed you are part of the problem.
-
You know Tom, if I'm part of the problem, I'm OK with that. The fact that you posted that on the Internet proves I'm doing my job correctly. It shows that, whther you believe it or not, you trust that the government is doing it's best to protect you. You may not trust POTUS, Congress, or Cabinet but the simple fact of using the Internet, going shopping, or driving on the streets means that you have a level of trust/understanding that the worker bee government is functioning properly. There are pages of attacks on this country every day. Most are cyber, some are indications of future activity, and others we haven't even identified yet. If you think that there aren't hundreds of Tsarnaev brothers out there looking for an opporunity to put a bomb up you a$$, you're a delusional fool. Part of the issue with the Boston attack is they aren't tied to anyone we're looking at so there is no indications until they set off the device. "Professional" terrorists leave a trail, the world is full of ametuers. They only have to be right once. The people trying to find/stop them have to be right every time. I've been either actively participating in or supporting anti/counter-terorism for almost 20yrs, and what I'm seeing now doesn't concern me, it scares the living CRAP out of me. Are we going to become like Israel, no. We do need to take a serious look at the vulnerablities we have in our infrastructure and procedures. You can say "Well I have a gun and will defend myself" all you want, you'll just have a gun in the blast radius.
FBG-That wasn't what I was referring to anyway. If that's you're answer you're not the problem.
-
Actually J I think all govt employees are out to f*ck the citizens for their own benefit and damn the consequences .
Do anything to protect the sacred pension right ?
Befeln, ist befeln.
-
That still doesn't answer my original question. There is no "good" option here. The cops need to find an armed suspect that has already set off a device, thrown grenades and shot at cops. They don't know what condition the guy is in. Does he have a hostage, more explosives? I don't think any of you could have done any better with the information you had. Did they go in a heavy when they may not have needed to? Sure. You all spout off how you'd have a gun and defend your home. Isn't that what they were doing, just a lot more of them?
One 19 y/o with an unknown quantity of explosives, or a well armed former police officer, yes, I do think that given the same scenario ANYWHERE else in the US the results would have been similar.
What bothers me about the videos and pictures I saw from Watertown where citizens being treated like suspected terrorists. I am always willing to give the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement and I won't condemn officers in this situation but we need to reevaluate things. The cops and the people should be on the same side but I feel that we the people are treated as potential threats. The TSA and debates on the 2nd amendment are just a few examples.
-
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/537891_582195155133262_441745945_n_zps4671cd79.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/twyacht/media/537891_582195155133262_441745945_n_zps4671cd79.jpg.html)
For those who can’t grasp what has happened here, let me explain; the dynamics of liberty have just been erased. This kind of behavior on the part of government will not be limited to disasters like Boston, or New Orleans during Katrina; a precedence is being set to use martial law-style tactics anywhere for any reason at anytime. The “national security argument” is being used as a free license to institute any measure regardless of law to achieve a particular combat objective. The environment we saw in the dark days of Boston is an environment we’ll soon see all over the country, and here is why…
Boston represents a clear escalation of the use of NDAA and martial law measures in the aftermath of a security event. After the arrest of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 2012, his Miranda Rights under the Constitution were denied due to “extraneous circumstances of national security”. Numerous lawmakers called for the suspect to be treated as an “enemy combatant” so that he could be interrogated under the laws of war without due process: (Source)
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/04/how-boston-bombing-is-already-being.html#more
As this was occurring, officials were consistently pushing media cameras away from the area in the name of “safety”, even though media cameramen are sent into domestic shootouts and foreign warzones on a regular basis. The only real purpose that I can see to removing them from the scene was to reduce the amount of video footage depicting these illegal searches.
******
Now the news reports are reporting "bomber boat boy was unarmed" thus requiring all that extra "ventilation" applied to the hull via the saturation fire tactics of LEO's....
-
It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if the Govt is telling you how much water you can use to flush a turd you no longer live in a free country.
-
It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if the Govt is telling you how much water you can use to flush a turd you no longer live in a free country.
Eerie, Tom..... I uttered almost that same sentence, as a random comment, to my wife just after installing the "new and improved, water-saving, adjustable flow" flapper-ball in one of our toilet tanks yesterday.
-
"Those willing to give up freedom for temporary safety deserve neither and will loose both".
Our founders thought that centralized power in the government was a bad thing. Boston merely demonstrated to what degree both sides have become willing to do or tolerate. LEOs will soon realize their position of favor is st the whim of a few power brokers a me at any given time they may find themselves subject to the very tactics they currently employ.
-
And I continue to weep for my country...
But, as the tears fall, my guns are clean and my powder dry...
Sheesh, fellas, what has this nation become?
Crusader Rabbit