The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: santahog on September 28, 2013, 10:54:35 PM
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This is the question, isn't it.
Not to be flip about it, but the answer to this is as central as the question of "The Chicken or The Egg?"..
(If it's from within a man, it makes sense to be armed, doesn't it..)
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The egg had to come first.
Also, I can give an argument that no one has any choice in what they do. Similar to the concept that a person can "do what they will, but can they will what they will".
But it doesn't matter.
As had been said. We don't blame rabid dogs.
We might try to find the cause and deal with it, but that doesn't give this dog a pass.
How someone gets to be "rabid" matters little in how we deal with the person.
It makes sense to be armed no matter where evil comes from...if it exists, and it does, be prepared to deal with it.
If you want to then deal with the source afterwards, that is a different task.
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Just as a note, it has to be the chicken.. Even an evolutionist haven't shown eggs to evolve..
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Just as a note, it has to be the chicken.. Even an evolutionist haven't shown eggs to evolve..
It had to be the egg that was defective, changes in the chicken would not have carried through to it's off spring.
and in this case evolution or creation are irrelevant since the subject is genetic mutation of an existing species.
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I have assumed an evolutionists view to answer this.
A creationist view can't answer the question....whichever the Creator decided to make first is what the answer is.
So...assuming no chickens exist. Some species close to a chicken, but not meeting the biological specifications for a chicken mate and either by a first time combination of genes from the parents, or mutation of the genes of one or both parents caused an egg to be produced that would hatch a chicken.
Something close to a chicken doesn't just magically turn into a chicken, but it can have genes that get mutated or combine in a first time way that will produce an egg that will hatch giving a creature that meets all the biological specifications of a chicken.
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But if one were to assume a creationists view, (which I do, of course) God (Creator) made the birds of the air, etc, telling them to "be fruitful and multiply". Having given the edict, one would logically assume that He equipped them to do as He commanded. He didn't lay eggs, or so the narrative goes..
Or do you subconsciously want to say that God laid an egg?.. ;D
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But if one were to assume a creationists view, (which I do, of course) God (Creator) made the birds of the air, etc, telling them to "be fruitful and multiply". Having given the edict, one would logically assume that He equipped them to do as He commanded. He didn't lay eggs, or so the narrative goes..
Or do you subconsciously want to say that God laid an egg?.. ;D
Laying an egg is less offensive to me than sending bears to kill children.
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Laying an egg is less offensive to me than sending bears to kill children.
And what kind of a God would He be if He offended "you"?! The nerve!!
He took my reason for having been born and to continuing to breathe, didn't offer me a "Plan B" and just damned left me here..
I'm sorry if He offended "you"..
Love is a choice, "love" having been created by Him in the first place.. He asks us to love Him. He doesn't make us. He made the rules, (Laws of nature, and natures God). Every choice from loving God, to loving another human, to hitting your thumb with a hammer has consequences.
Those kids you're talking about were brats, no different than the evil little brats running around today, just like the majority of us were at some point before we got our head pulled out of our asses for us... You mean to tell me that at no time in your life have you seen a bunch of brats (read modern day thugs/gangstas) and thought to yourself that bad shit ought to visit them for being such vicious, small little villains? No? Not even once? What stopped you? You're not God, right? Well, God is.. He can make an example out of any of us if it will guide the rest of us into a right relationship with Him.. Yes, fear is an appropriate facet of respect, and respect of love.
I guess, if you don't like the rules, go make your own heavens and earth.. If you're god and all.. There can only be one (actual, true) "god"..
Be careful though. You see how he treats those who try to be god in His name.. Jonestown is as good an object lesson as any "should" ever need, (though many still try to pull it off).
I don't know what to tell you. He's offended the shit out of me.. That doesn't make him evil. It just makes me "not God"..
Those poor little babies.. They weren't doing anything!! Just like any pack of darling little children today.. They drag people out of cars and beat people to death in McDonalds, filming it for Youtube. THEY'RE JUST LITTLE KIDS!!
Rant... It just tickles me to hear somebody talk about how God offends them..
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And what kind of a God would He be if He offended "you"?! The nerve!!
He took my reason for having been born and to continuing to breathe, didn't offer me a "Plan B" and just damned left me here..
I'm sorry if He offended "you"..
Love is a choice, "love" having been created by Him in the first place.. He asks us to love Him. He doesn't make us. He made the rules, (Laws of nature, and natures God). Every choice from loving God, to loving another human, to hitting your thumb with a hammer has consequences.
Those kids you're talking about were brats, no different than the evil little brats running around today, just like the majority of us were at some point before we got our head pulled out of our asses for us... You mean to tell me that at no time in your life have you seen a bunch of brats (read modern day thugs/gangstas) and thought to yourself that bad shit ought to visit them for being such vicious, small little villains? No? Not even once? What stopped you? You're not God, right? Well, God is.. He can make an example out of any of us if it will guide the rest of us into a right relationship with Him.. Yes, fear is an appropriate facet of respect, and respect of love.
I guess, if you don't like the rules, go make your own heavens and earth.. If you're god and all.. There can only be one (actual, true) "god"..
Be careful though. You see how he treats those who try to be god in His name.. Jonestown is as good an object lesson as any "should" ever need, (though many still try to pull it off).
I don't know what to tell you. He's offended the shit out of me.. That doesn't make him evil. It just makes me "not God"..
Those poor little babies.. They weren't doing anything!! Just like any pack of darling little children today.. They drag people out of cars and beat people to death in McDonalds, filming it for Youtube. THEY'RE JUST LITTLE KIDS!!
Rant... It just tickles me to hear somebody talk about how God offends them..
You misunderstood. I was fine with God laying an egg...his choice in how the world is created. It was you who made the accusatory comment.
But just like Muslims calling Allah a just and kind god and Islam a religion of peace, calling God just and kind without including the other aspects is lying..to yourself at least.
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You misunderstood. I was fine with God laying an egg...his choice in how the world is created. It was you who made the accusatory comment.
But just like Muslims calling Allah a just and kind god and Islam a religion of peace, calling God just and kind without including the other aspects is lying..to yourself at least.
What did I accuse you of aside from not being God?
What aspect of God have I denied?
I said that He's God, and he can do as he pleases, without an explanation to either one of us. We don't have to like it. It offends you that he doesn't check with you for a consult before he does what he does? You don't like how He runs the place? You don't think He's fair? That's on you then, isn't it?
He's laid it out plain for both of us. He doesn't lose anything by our disregard for Him. (You do know that, right?) he gave us free will. It's on us to choose Him or not. If we're brats, He's still in charge. If we're a godly woman that belongs to Him, He's still gonna do what pleases Him. He works in our lives to our benefit, but He doesn't owe us an explanation for anything.
What accusation did I offer to you, beyond the obvious? That He says "Trust Me" is a whole lot better than His saying "Okay, so,.. what? I'm not making you do anything." You only get to make your choices. You can teach your kids or not. That you do is for the benefit of your kids. That you want to guide a kid into right decisions is on you, but it's the kids choice to make, isn't it?
So, ... what? What's your beef? Why be offended at God, when you can't do anything about it anyway?
What am I missing?
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Actually, Santa, I find it difficult to believe in the Bible. Which means I have concerns with most every organized Christian religion. I just cannot take the Bible literally, and once you accept that it is not literal in everything, things reconcile much easier for me.
As to evolution, if the Catholic Church can find that the theory of evolution works within it's theology, it can't be far off the mark,
Once this is done, all the problems with trying to reconcile Creationism with the facts go away.
One of my concerns about the Bible being the inspired word of God is that I need someone to tell me which version of the Bible I should believe has been inspired...and where did all the others come from?
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One of my concerns about the Bible being the inspired word of God is that I need someone to tell me which version of the Bible I should believe has been inspired...and where did all the others come from?
You mean like the story of the great flood? The Sumarians had a version a millenia before the Greeks, whose version was a millenia before the bible. But Bible is the {{true}} version because some popes and bishops said they are while throwing out books that they didn't like.
Politics hasn't changed much.
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It took over 1600 years to write and then re-write the bible. Most of it was written by people who weren't around in the time of Christ. What makes them experts? I personally have problems believing any of it.
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Most of the reglions I respect have some type of " if this, than that" aspect when it comes to the holly texts. Stuff like translated correctly, open of inturpatation, they are storys to make a point. Etc etc.
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Guys, alot of you are talking about translations, timelines and authorship when you don't know what you're talking about. You're repeating what somebody who spoke to your ego and it sounded good or intelligent.
Every "translation" of the scripture is "one removed" from the same manuscripts. There are still "new translations" coming out today, but they all go back to the original source manuscripts. the "editing" is different, but it's not to correct a previous version. It's to clarify the meaning to a contemporary audience. I don't suppose there are more than two people here who could read with full understanding, the "original" KJV from 1509. It's a tough read! I have problems with it myself! It's just easier to read the "KJV that we all see in the bookstores or Wal-mart. There are translations that I don't like, because, (in the NIV, for example) the text is changed to make certain words or phrases "gender neutral". The NIV was "edited" by a couple of lesbians who didn't like attributing a masculine "persona" to God. It's done with an agenda, to be sure, and I don't use it, but I can read it and understand what's there because I spend the time to read the different versions and understand what's actually being said.
Personally, I like the KJV, NKJV, NAS and I don't like the CEV, NIV, or even Thompson's, though his concordance is far and away the best English resource available to the ordinary (English speaking) man.
I'm not some theologian who knows it all, but answer me this.. You all, who care to spend time thinking about it, view the "Socratic Method" of scientific study to be a valid one. I don't believe there are ANY of his writings to be seen or touched, and nobody can point to a time when there were. There is less evidence that Socrates ever existed than just the Ascension of Jesus, yet you scoff at the latter and hold fast to the former. Why? You can't prove it, or he even existed. You take it on faith, knowing less about Socrates than you do about Jesus, only repeating what somebody who's supposed to be an authority told you was true.
You scoff at "The Flood", while the evidence for it is screaming past you every time you drive through a cut away of a mountain. Calling it something other than what it says for itself doesn't make it something other than what it is, anymore than the kid walking into a door because some idiot at school taught him that if he believed it, he could walk through doors.. It's right there. All you have to do is look at it and allow it to explain itself, just like Gods Word. Understanding of Creation isn't difficult, only the "alternate theories". These guys trying to say it's something other than what you can see right in front of you is dancing on the head of a pin. It's just too much work for something too simple not to make it suspect.
I feel for ya.. I really do! ** Please don't take that to mean that I don't know where you're coming from, because i do!** I haven't always "believed". I have always, at least as long as I can remember, that I knew, and could feel the presence of God. That had/has nothing to do with having read and/or studied His Word as a lay person. Every child "feels" God. It's about the time that he goes into rebellion that you know that he "grew up" and decided that he knows better. We all know how much fun that is to endure... It's no easier to endure when that rebellion continues ad infinitum.. The adults can seldom make any better case for what they're rebelling against than the 15 year old kid. The difference between the two is that the adult can't recognize the similarity of the attempts. The kid is at least, generally open minded enough to hear what's being said.. (Once we get old, nobody can tell us anything ever again, because we know better, damnit..)
I'm not talking for God, He doesn't need me to defend Him. He can speak for Himself quite well, thank you very much. IF you or I don't want to listen, (and this is the scarey part to me), He'll eventually shut up and let us have our way. Pride before destruction.. Pride tells us we know more than God. Destruction is finally finding out how wrong we were.
A note on the other "religions". None of them, their prophets, and whatnot claim to be God. Jesus claimed to be God. Just a note on that one as well. Having been the only one to leave an empty grave, (documented by non-believer historians of the day) kinda gives credence to to the idea that "It ain't bragging of you can prove it"..
Study it for yourself, please. I don't ask you to believe me, not on this.. This is forever! I promise I wouldn't trust you with anything quite that heavy. You CAN ask God to prove Himself. It's been demonstrated time and again, every day.. Ask in faith, not in snark and snarl. be honest about it. If He can make you see Himself in that which you call "your life", then find out more, from Him, (not what somebody else said about Him, please). I prove it with money every month, and I do it because He told me/us to try Him on this. Again, I don't expect you to believe me. I do ask you to go directly to Him and find out for yourself.. just be honest with yourself and Him about what you really think or feel. I promise, you're not gonna shock or surprise Him, or make Him blush. It all starts, regardless of what you believe, with being honest with yourself.
If you don't believe Him, tell Him. If you change your mind about Him, tell Him. (Then it gets hard, because He'll ask you to tell everybody else too..) Deal with that later..
Back to my troll hole now.. Happy Friday!! ;D
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You take it on faith, knowing less about Socrates than you do about Jesus, only repeating what somebody who's supposed to be an authority told you was true. You scoff at "The Flood", while the evidence for it is screaming past you every time you drive through a cut away of a mountain.
Santa, I understand what you are trying to say. I really do.
But don't think for a minute that you have ANY idea what I know or don't know about Christianity, Jesus, God, the Holy Trinity or religion.
You mention "scoffing at the flood". I didn't scoff at the idea, I mentioned that this tale spans a couple thousand years BEFORE the bible was thought of. Yet, in my christian schooling, (7 years of it), I was taught the bible's version is the right and true one. That screaming evidence you mention? Ever heard of continental plate movement? It can push mountains up from the sea floor.
It's not the Bible I have the biggest problem with. It was compiled by people of faith abiding to the politics of the time.
It's the PEOPLE THAT THUMP IT and want to jam it down everyones throat that get under my skin.
Food for thought: an empty grave is an empty grave. Back in the not so old days, when medical schools from Mexico to Europe needed cadavers, grave robbers left empty graves. From what I understand, none of those empty graves contained a messiah.
I leave you the last word if you want it because I am so done with this thread.
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... Food for thought: an empty grave is an empty grave. Back in the not so old days, when medical schools from Mexico to Europe needed cadavers, grave robbers left empty graves. From what I understand, none of those empty graves contained a messiah.
I leave you the last word if you want it because I am so done with this thread.
I'm not sure hearing about a claim that those graves had been claimed to..
Other than that, nah, I'm good.. Said what I've said. He's said what He's said. Take or leave by your own conviction. :)
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With the exception of Islam ALL religions basically say to treat others the way you want to be treated .
Once you get past the BS details they are all essentially the same, and they all serve as guides on how to go through life with out having to kill to many of your neighbors.
Any one who says X is the only "correct" religion is an ass.
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With the exception of Islam ALL religions basically say to treat others the way you want to be treated .
Once you get past the BS details they are all essentially the same, and they all serve as guides on how to go through life with out having to kill to many of your neighbors.
Any one who says X is the only "correct" religion is an ass.
That's a pretty good general rule, but there are exceptions.
Masochists and homosexuals come to mind.
In either case, I'd not welcome them treating me as they want to be treated.
I imagine there are other proclivities and social customs that I am unaware of that would fall into the same category
yeah...it'a sort of picky...but I've considered this aspect of the Golden Rule.
Point is that even the Golden Rule makes the assumption everyone is similar enough to you to make it a valid rule.
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/10/04/do-catholic-priests-in-the-military-risk-being-arrested-if-they-minister-and-hold-mass-during-the-govt-shutdown/
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Guys, alot of you are talking about translations, timelines and authorship when you don't know what you're talking about. You're repeating what somebody who spoke to your ego and it sounded good or intelligent.
Some things to think about. The average literacy rate in the 1st Century Roman Empire was less than 2%. The average life-span of someone NOT in the aristocracy, was 40 years. The earliest known writings of the 'New Testament' that exist, are from the early 2nd Century. In Greek, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Latin. Granted Greek was the language of the educated at that time. See the <2% remark.
So, who wrote the 'Gospels'? Certainly not the attributed authors.
Just so you know, I spent two years in intensive study of the birth of Christianity, and the Apostle Paul. I was an Honor student at Seminary. I know more than most, but not nearly enough to say for certain the the Bible is/is not 'the word of God'. Inspired or not!
I lean more towards not for man is filled with vainglory and peccadillo's.
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Some things to think about. The average literacy rate in the 1st Century Roman Empire was less than 2%. The average life-span of someone NOT in the aristocracy, was 40 years. The earliest known writings of the 'New Testament' that exist, are from the early 2nd Century. In Greek, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Latin. Granted Greek was the language of the educated at that time. See the <2% remark.
So, who wrote the 'Gospels'? Certainly not the attributed authors.
Just so you know, I spent two years in intensive study of the birth of Christianity, and the Apostle Paul. I was an Honor student at Seminary. I know more than most, but not nearly enough to say for certain the the Bible is/is not 'the word of God'. Inspired or not!
I lean more towards not for man is filled with vainglory and peccadillo's.
The last line there begs a comment and a question..
The first half sounds like something we're all entitled to, opinions being what they are and all.
The second half makes me wonder what yo do with your guilt, being no less filled than the next man..
I don't want an answer or whatever. It just kinda begs the observation..
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The last line there begs a comment and a question.. makes me wonder what yo do with your guilt, being no less filled than the next man..
I don't want an answer or whatever. It just kinda begs the observation..
My transgressions against the God of whomsoever are no less, and likely a great deal more than most. They are however mine, and I own them, and must deal with them in a manner that befits MY understanding of God. That is more than enough to do in that regard. It leaves little time for questioning the ethics and morals that anyone else may profess, be it Shinto, Buddhism, Taoism, Pharisaic Jewry, Christianity, and many others I cannot think to name right now.
Tolerance, civility, and outright kindness should mark the measure of a person. I will tolerate your view, so long as you do not infringe upon mine. I will speak civilly to all, and hold doors open for those in a bigger rush than I am, or, just because I feel like it.
And, the first bit of what I wrote is part of the historical record. It is not written in a sentence or paragraph, nor even a chapter. It was written on the pages of history since Herodotus.
I'll leave this now, I am more comfortable being the red-necked son of an illiterate side-hill farmer.
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Nice post. There is no such animal as a self interpreting text. And the thing is, orthodox Christianity, until the Baptists and Evangelicals came along, admitted as much. The Episcopal church states it plainly, but other mainline denominations admit it quietly. It is a combination of scripture, reason and tradition that forms our theology. And reason comes in large part from general revelation, or natural law, given to all men regardless of faith. To claim the that scripture is inerrant and literally true is what the Muslims and Mormons do. It is not, and never has been the teaching of Christianity until the 17th and 18th century.
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Nice post. There is no such animal as a self interpreting text. And the thing is, orthodox Christianity, until the Baptists and Evangelicals came along, admitted as much. The Episcopal church states it plainly, but other mainline denominations admit it quietly. It is a combination of scripture, reason and tradition that forms our theology. And reason comes in large part from general revelation, or natural law, given to all men regardless of faith. To claim the that scripture is inerrant and literally true is what the Muslims and Mormons do. It is not, and never has been the teaching of Christianity until the 17th and 18th century.
When Christ said "I am" ("The Way, The Truth, The Light", "Before Abraham was", etc) do you understand what it was that he was universally understood by his audience to be saying?
How do you get "To claim the that scripture is inerrant and literally true is what the Muslims and Mormons do. It is not, and never has been the teaching of Christianity until the 17th and 18th century." to fit into that hat? He claimed to be Very and The One True God.. Saying "I Am, God" is a pretty clear claim to inerrancy, don't you think? How is it then that the Baptists and Evangelicals came along and made claims that had never been laid before their times? They're pointing out that they agree with Him, that He IS God, just like He claims..
How is that complicated or convoluted?
Again, I'm good here.. These statements do beg the questions though..
It seems to me that you're accusing Christians (believers in Christ and the Word) of circular reasoning, making up circular reasoning, attributing it to Christians and the Bible, and then pointing to your argument/fabrication as truth to demonstrate the validity of your accusation...
(That's what the Demo(n)crats do every time the truth of their actions begins to come close to being uncovered, I've observed, pretty regularly..)
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Not at all. I believe the Bible is made up of the accounts of inspired and authorized witnesses. The stories (and songs, and poems, and parables) reveal the truth. But they aren't written by God, much less translated by him. They are historical accounts. And just like every other historical account were written by real people living in a particular time and addressing a particular audience doing their best to get the truth across.
That doesn't make the Bible any less true, anymore than a first hand account of the D-Day invasion isn't true. It does effect how you read it.
The Muslims and Mormons, OTOH believe that Smith and Muhhamed were basically ventriloquist dummies writing down the exact words God gave them and that every comma is sacred. That's not the traditional Christian view.
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I have, over the last few years, decided to stay out of religious debate unless it is face to face.
However, to this, I humbly submit to those who believe there is understanding in this.....
To those who do not, move along:
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
2 Timothy 3
Godlessness in the Last Days
3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom[a] you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
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Peg, thank you.. :)
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Just a note...
Folks other than Christians are persecuted too..
Some that come to mind quickly are:
Those tried in the Salem Witch Trials.
Those subjected to the Spanish Inquisition
Those who believed the world was not flat.
And I am sure there are others I've not remembered.
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To make the point I've been trying to get across.
What does any of the above have to do with management principles, or good Govt ?
There is not a single thing that has been mentioned that would lower the debt or close the borders.
I don't care what or if you believe, it has no place in politics.
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OK then.... I pick the chicken. ;D
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OK then.... I pick the chicken. ;D
Obviously, the astute observation.... ;D
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I realize this may have been posted elsewhere, but I think it sort of fits in this thread. This a debate from a few years ago between the late Christopher Hitchens and William Lane Craig. It's over 2 hours long so you really get to hear what they have to say. I know it will not change anyone's world view here but at least it may give you a few points to ponder.