The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Frosty on April 14, 2014, 10:50:30 AM
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Has anyone one else bee following the Bundy Ranch saga? This rancher in Nevada had people come from all over to protest/stop the Gov./BLM. It appears after numerous days of confrontation which was building as more people flocked to the area then BLM realized that 99.9% of the protesters on the ranch were armed & ready & BLM stepped back after the sheriff negotiated a temporary solution before SHTF.
Here's an earlier link to what's going on http://arizonastatemilitia.com/constitution/arizona-state-militia-now-on-site-in-nevada/ (http://arizonastatemilitia.com/constitution/arizona-state-militia-now-on-site-in-nevada/)
Fortunately BLM backed off and didn't do a Wako, Ruby Ridge, etc. although temporarily mind you, and no one has to attend their own funeral.
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I was working in Las Vegas when this started, and as it grew. It was interesting to read and listen to the local media and compare it to the national media like USA Today, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and the talking heads on both sides of the political aisle.
A lot of information concerning these contracts and how they work, as well as, the actual facts behind how these ranchers are diligent in their dealings locally that never made the national news.
I don't think it got much ink or time, but does anybody want to venture a guess at how lucky the BLM is to have any living agents left after Tasering Bundy's son? Talk about the "Shot Heard Around The World."
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Yea, ink time was sparse and it took some time for the MSS to bring it up. It wasn't until the protest started growing with militia groups (2 I believe) as well as others & confrontations increased. There are allegations that Sen. Reid & his son were involved with the initial land dispute, which involved some deal with a Chinese solar co., they used the tortoise as the reason Bundy had to leave as well as other reasons per BLM. Will the issue be pursued? Most likely no, but the gov. will make an example of Bundy and other participants.
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Hi;
Don't forget that the Milita had sniper positions set up and that BLM/feds realized that THEY would be the people surrounded and cut off ! All of the drones and copters would have not helped them at all.
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I've been wondering a lot about this. I even thought about starting a discussion on it.
First, I think it is very important to see citizens stand up to the government and win (at least for now).
However, I find it difficult to find Mr. Bundy completely innocent from the, admittedly, limited research I've done. M58, could you provide some links to those local stories? If he hasn't worked under the rules and payed his legitimate dues, then he shouldn't be allowed to continue to have his cattle there.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the government's heavy handed militant response. I also don't know how legitimate those fines/fees are. How much work has been done to change these laws through the legal process, just curious?
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Well lets look at those fees.... Currently, grazing fees are set at approx $1.35 @ head.
Bundy was said to have about 900 "trespass cattle".
Even if we more than double the herd size to 2500,
put them on the land for 21 years,
that still doesn't add up to anywhere NEAR 1 million....more like $70,875.
He stated he thought he might owe $300k but would only pay it to NV or Crook County.
Anyone know how this 300k figure was reached?
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I've been wondering a lot about this. I even thought about starting a discussion on it.
First, I think it is very important to see citizens stand up to the government and win (at least for now).
However, I find it difficult to find Mr. Bundy completely innocent from the, admittedly, limited research I've done. M58, could you provide some links to those local stories? If he hasn't worked under the rules and payed his legitimate dues, then he shouldn't be allowed to continue to have his cattle there.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the government's heavy handed militant response. I also don't know how legitimate those fines/fees are. How much work has been done to change these laws through the legal process, just curious?
I've run into a number of what I refer to as "sunshine patriots" on another board who make this same point. Consider this.
Our rights apply to the worst of us as well as the most pristine. Was Bundy pristine? I don't know and I really don't care. The libtards play up the lack of payment and "free" grazing he gets, and usually wax poetic over him - and us who support him - dying some horrific and painful death.
For those of us old enough, we remember well Larry Flynt and the hand-wringing that rights advocates did over his publication of Hustler magazine. Gee, if only he weren't so personally repugnant, if only his magazine wasn't such smut, we could get behind him. Well, guess what folks, get behind him or there will be no one left to worry about you when the .gov comes for your most treasured rights.
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This is about all I've seen on the subject.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/13/is-harry-reid-involved-seven-answers-to-seven-questions-youre-probably-asking-right-now-about-the-nevada-rancher-situation/
Generally speaking nothing you are hearing is true.
The Feds have been controlling western lands since the days of the railroad right of ways, Reid's land deal is about 100 miles away from this area, the Chinese deal fell through more than a year ago and has no bearing on the situation, the State and county have absolutely nothing to do with federal land use, so his claim of trying to pay the fees to them is BS and he does owe the money.
It seems this is just some A hole trying to use public opinion to weasel out of paying fees that every other rancher has been paying right along.
Also, since he owes fees back to the 1990's his claims of "oppression" sound really suspicious.
Just because he's opposing the feds doesn't make him a good guy.
No one who has yet commented is actually in that business, I'll reserve judgement until I see what Pathfinder and some of the others , who actually know know the subject have to say.
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I've run into a number of what I refer to as "sunshine patriots" on another board who make this same point. Consider this.
I understand what you're saying and don't disagree with rights being for everyone. I also don't agree with the government's current response. I'm just trying to form an honest assessment of the situation. Is he a completely innocent man being railroaded by the feds, is he a legitimate patriot standing up for the rights of all, or is he a freeloader with a good sells pitch to get already mad folks riled up? The truth is probably somewhere in between. I don't consider myself a "sunshine patriot;" I'm just an independent thinker trying to gather truths to make an informed decision. It's easy to make a snap judgment for or against based off of pro/anti-government views.
For the record, I take nothing personal and mean nothing personal. :)
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I read a report about the history of the Bundy Family and the Land Rights issue.....have no idea how factual it is....
The gist of it is that back in the 1800s while the area was just a territory, the Bundy family and others in the area were having disputes over water rights and got the authorities at that time involved to settle the dispute.
An agreement was reached with provisions allowing grazing cow/calf pairs by the different parties based on the number the water they had rights to would sustain. The participants agreed to pay a fee for the arbitration and a continuing fee for it's maintenance each year as circumstances changed.
Some time later the fee for arbitration was changed to be called a license to graze the agreed upon number of cattle on the land. Since the cost and the number of cattle remained the same, none of the participants cared what the charge was called.
Next the land was put under government control, but nothing else changed...and again, no one minded because their usage and cost stayed the same.
Then in more recent history, the government decided to restrict the grazing usage of the government land to protect the turtles...and the number of cattle allowed was reduced significantly...from something like 2800 head to 900 head....and not sure of those exact numbers.
Well this bought some contention and Bundy, at least objected and finally stopped paying. That was maybe 5 years ago....
The Bundys claim they have documented proof of their family's continued ownership, occupation and use of the land since way back when it was a territory. They also claim that laws in effect back then gave them title to the lands.
Now...assuming all that is true...we might form an opinion about the standing of Bundy's case.
On one hand, I see incremental government takeover of the land so Bundy might have "right" on his side.
However, by allowing the government to weasel into the situation, he is in violation of the law...
Just like gun owners in Connecticut are in violation of the law by not registering their firearms and magazines.
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Well lets look at those fees.... Currently, grazing fees are set at approx $1.35 @ head.
Bundy was said to have about 900 "trespass cattle".
Even if we more than double the herd size to 2500,
put them on the land for 21 years,
that still doesn't add up to anywhere NEAR 1 million....more like $70,875.
He stated he thought he might owe $300k but would only pay it to NV or Crook County.
Anyone know how this 300k figure was reached?
$1.35 per head per month x 12 = $16.20 per year x 900 head =$14,580 per year for the heard x 20 years = $291,600 owing.
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mkm,
Sorry for delay, but about as quick as I get a nap in I'm on the road again ... I hate this time of year!
Google the local papers and news stations. The most telling I picked up in a local paper down there was when the Gov. of Nevada backed Bundy, and when a County official confirmed that he had been paying the fees locally.
His issue isn't with the fees. His issue is that the Federal Government stole the land from the state and local government (not government as a whole as ranted by Reid and the liberals).
There was also one story that I did not get to read all of, but when I was interrupted it was listing costs that should have been government that he had paid (fencing, gates, maintenance, etc). Not sure of the details, and like I said, I don't have time now to search. I do know that this is far from what the main stream has sold the nation on.
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The Breitbart web site has a long article on the story. Might be a good source for a balanced view.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch
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$1.35 per head per month x 12 = $16.20 per year x 900 head =$14,580 per year for the heard x 20 years = $291,600 owing.
Thank you!
The site I looked at didn't list the fee as per month...or it did and the whiskey blurred it. :D
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This is another spin on the story. This one I have the most faith in being from a ranching background and dealing with the feds.
http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/blm-worried-cliven-bundy-might-prescriptive-rights-might-use-defense-court/ (http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/blm-worried-cliven-bundy-might-prescriptive-rights-might-use-defense-court/)
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This is another spin on the story. This one I have the most faith in being from a ranching background and dealing with the feds.
http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/blm-worried-cliven-bundy-might-prescriptive-rights-might-use-defense-court/ (http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/blm-worried-cliven-bundy-might-prescriptive-rights-might-use-defense-court/)
Good Info.
Looks like no matter where the legal issues fall out, another government agency committed another gross overreaction.
At least this time, they seemed to have learned something from the Waco massacre....or maybe it didn't look like they were going to be able to pull off another Waco when the armed folks weren't holed up in a fire trap.
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Just think how many of their roads, and culverts that money could have maintained.
My Dad say's out in Idaho people are so sick of waiting for BLM to get off their azzes they just fix what they need themselves.
Then when BLM puts locks on the gates they cut them off and continue about their business.
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Found an article that seems to indicate the Reid/Chinese deal is not dead yet.
The situation in 2012 might have been delayed, but it showed back then that the BLM was willing, and did, sacrifice the protected tortoise when the Reid back project needed them out of the way.
The article also indicates that the current events at the Bundy farm are a continuation of that 2012 project.
http://cowboybyte.com/29761/harry-reid-chinese-sugar-daddy-vs-cliven-bundy/
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For some time now I have been harping on the idea that, "If you tolerate it, you deserve it".
Well, the locals in this case did not tolerate it any more and look what happened .
Even Feds are smart enough to know they do not want to get shot.
Same tactics work against gun control or illegal immigration .
Political power ALL comes from the barrel of a gun.
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For some time now I have been harping on the idea that, "If you tolerate it, you deserve it".
Well, the locals in this case did not tolerate it any more and look what happened .
Even Feds are smart enough to know they do not want to get shot.
Same tactics work against gun control or illegal immigration .
Political power ALL comes from the barrel of a gun.
Exactly. I still remember the "punch line" from a post here.... "You should have stopped my at the dinner roll".
But it is nice to see that a delayed objection, when it is full tilt and serious, can still change the situation.
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This one.
"Dinner with Obama"
Once upon a time, I was invited to the White House for a private dinner with the President. I am a respected businessman, with a factory that produces memory chips for computers and portable electronics. There was some talk that my industry was being scrutinized by the administration, but I paid it no mind. I live in a free country. There's nothing that the government can do to me if I've broken no laws. My wealth was earned honestly, and an invitation to dinner with an American President is an honor.
I checked my coat, was greeted by the Chief of Staff, and joined the President in a yellow dining room. We sat across from each other at a table draped in white linen. The Great Seal was embossed on the china. Uniformed staff served our dinner. The meal was served, and I was startled when my waiter suddenly reached out, plucked a dinner roll off my plate, and began nibbling it as he walked back to the kitchen. "Sorry about that," said the President. "Andrew is very hungry."
"I don't appreciate..." I began, but as I looked into the calm brown eyes across from me, I felt immediately guilty and petty.. It was just a dinner roll. "Of course," I concluded, and reached for my glass. Before I could, however, another waiter reached forward, took the glass away and swallowed the wine in a single gulp.
"And his brother Eric is very thirsty." said the President.
I didn't say anything. The President is testing my compassion, I thought. I will play along. I don't want to seem unkind. My plate was whisked away before I had tasted a bite.
"Eric's children are also quite hungry."
With a lurch, I crashed to the floor. My chair had been pulled out from under me. I stood,brushing myself off angrily, and watched as it was carried from the room.
"And their grandmother can't stand for long."
I excused myself, smiling outwardly, but inside feeling like a fool. Obviously I had been invited to the White House to be sport for some game. I reached for my coat, to find that it had been taken. I turned back to the President. "Their grandfather doesn't like the cold."
I wanted to shout - that was my coat! But again, I looked at the placid smiling face of my host and decided I was being a poor sport. I spread my hands helplessly and chuckled. Then I felt my hip pocket and realized my wallet was gone. I excused myself and walked to a phone on an elegant side table. I learned shortly that my credit cards had been maxed out, my bank accounts emptied, my retirement and equity portfolios had vanished, and my wife had been thrown out of our home. Apparently, the waiters and their families were moving in. The President hadn't moved or spoken as I learned all this, but finally I lowered the phone into its cradle and turned to face him.
"Andrew's whole family has made bad financial decisions. They haven't planned for retirement, and they need a house. They recently defaulted on a subprime mortgage. I told them they could have your home. They need it more than you do."
My hands were shaking. I felt faint. I stumbled back to the table and knelt on the floor. The President cheerfully cut his meat, ate his steak and drank his wine. I lowered my eyes and stared at the small grey circles on the tablecloth that were water drops. "By the way," He added, "I have just signed an Executive Order nationalizing your factories. I'm firing you as head of your business. I'll be operating the firm now for the benefit of all mankind. There's a whole bunch of Erics and Andrews out there and they can't come to you for jobs groveling like beggars."
I looked up. The President dropped his spoon into the empty ramekin which had been his creme brulee. He drained the last drops of his wine.
As the table was cleared, he lit a cigarette and leaned back in his chair. He stared at me. I clung to the edge of the table as if were a ledge and I were a man hanging over an abyss.. I thought of the years behind me, of the life I had lived. The life I had earned with a lifetime of work, risk and struggle. Why was I punished? How had I allowed it to be taken? What game had I played and lost? I looked across the table and noticed with some surprise that there was no game board between us. What had I done wrong?
As if answering the unspoken thought, the President suddenly cocked his head, locked his empty eyes to mine, and bared a million teeth, chuckling wryly as he folded his hands.
"You should have stopped me at the dinner roll," he said.
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The "legal" aspects of the case are irrelevant. This is not about cows, turtles or fees, they are merely an excuse by the government, with the willing aid of the MSM and proglodytes to impose their will on Bundy.
The center of this is the way that will has been imposed. Armed coercion by the government to force the courts' ruling. That armed coercion is against the law http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/18/gop-lawmaker-urges-blm-to-stop-illegal-paramilitary-raids-against-rancher/ .
It is past time to draw a line and take a stand. God bless those men and women who have stood with Bundy. They have shown us that we can succeed IF we are willing to risk it all.
Here are some more goods links;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFiosLqjoQQ&feature=youtu.be
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/assemblywoman-fiore-the-truth-about-the-bundys-vs-blm_042014
http://benswann.com/exclusive-does-cliven-bundy-have-something-called-prescriptive-rights-why-the-blm-may-be-afraid-of-going-to-court/
http://benswann.com/lofti-who-actually-owns-americas-land-a-deeper-look-at-the-bundy-ranch-crisis/
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BLM to grab Texas land next.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/23/texas-is-next-ag-warns-blm-wants-90000-acres-after/
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Then there is this, Burning Man meets Bundy, i.e., Bundyfest!
News reports say the Bundyfesters will invade the Bundy ranch on the last day.
Google Burning Man.
http://politix.topix.com/story/11681-burning-man-is-moving-in-directly-next-door-to-bundy-ranch-meet-bundyfest?comments=1
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For the last three plus decades I have watched citizens use the state and federal government to take what they want from citizens. Eminent domain was once only a tool of the government used to assure that critical services could be provided: Roads, utilities, buffers and restricted areas for safety.
In recent decades I have watched Eminent domain used to take land and property for economic development, and even to shape the make up of neighborhoods - Style and type of housing, demographic make up, and landscape design (I'm not talking flood or landslide abatement here - I'm talking parks and boulevards). Most recently our region has seen this move being used by people taking land for recreation from private property owners.
So called trails are being developed all over the place. It stated when the railroads abandoned many lines and let the land go back to the government. Many bike trails were developed on these lands. Since that time we have watched many farmers and residents forced to give easements on their private property for the development of paved sidewalks along lake shores and river banks, and even just to get across to wildlife areas.
The people with enough numbers to garner support can vote your personal property away from you!
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For the last three plus decades I have watched citizens use the state and federal government to take what they want from citizens. Eminent domain was once only a tool of the government used to assure that critical services could be provided: Roads, utilities, buffers and restricted areas for safety.
In recent decades I have watched Eminent domain used to take land and property for economic development, and even to shape the make up of neighborhoods - Style and type of housing, demographic make up, and landscape design (I'm not talking flood or landslide abatement here - I'm talking parks and boulevards). Most recently our region has seen this move being used by people taking land for recreation from private property owners.
So called trails are being developed all over the place. It stated when the railroads abandoned many lines and let the land go back to the government. Many bike trails were developed on these lands. Since that time we have watched many farmers and residents forced to give easements on their private property for the development of paved sidewalks along lake shores and river banks, and even just to get across to wildlife areas.
The people with enough numbers to garner support can vote your personal property away from you!
It is a shame.
We are turning into a Democracy.
Citizen to: “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”
Benjamin Franklin: “A Republic, if you can keep it.”
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." Thomas Jefferson.
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If the soap box fails, there's still the ballot box.
When that fails all that's left is the cartridge box.
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If the soap box fails, there's still the ballot box.
When that fails all that's left is the cartridge box.
Becoming more and more convinced that the few of the opposition "hear" any facts from the soapbox and that the ballot box is suspect.
From Clair Wolfe:
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." – 101 Things to Do 'Til the Revolution (1996)
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Open borders an licenses for illegals make the ballot box a bad joke.
Even with voter ID laws would some one be able to read YOUR license and determine whether or not you belong here ?
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It is a shame.
We are turning into a Democracy.
Not according to this study.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/04/16/The-US-is-not-a-democracy-but-an-oligarchy-study-concludes/2761397680051/ (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/04/16/The-US-is-not-a-democracy-but-an-oligarchy-study-concludes/2761397680051/)
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Not according to this study.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/04/16/The-US-is-not-a-democracy-but-an-oligarchy-study-concludes/2761397680051/ (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/04/16/The-US-is-not-a-democracy-but-an-oligarchy-study-concludes/2761397680051/)
I'll go with that..or worse.
"I don't think we're a Republic anymore, Toto.
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Nope. Not by a long shot.
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Apparently Mr. Bunch once said something that when take out of context sounded racist. The media must be scared to death of this guy. I know The Blaze (and Glenn Beck) are as they have done nothing but vasilate from pilling on when ever anything negative hits the wire and back track only enough to keep their readers from leaving for good IMHO.
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Glenn Beck is NOT a patriot. He is just a money hungry clown out for himself.
As far as eminent domain, we already lost that one. SCOTUS said it can be used for purely economic reasons to include taking your property and giving it to someone else if in would increase tax revenues.
There go your property rights.
We all know the 4th A is dead. The 1st is too (free speech zones).
The only one we really have left is the 2A and it's time to USE it!
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Glenn Beck is NOT a patriot. He is just a money hungry clown out for himself.
As far as eminent domain, we already lost that one. SCOTUS said it can be used for purely economic reasons to include taking your property and giving it to someone else if in would increase tax revenues.
There go your property rights.
We all know the 4th A is dead. The 1st is too (free speech zones).
The only one we really have left is the 2A and it's time to USE it!
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/kelo-revisited_776021.html
Didn't work out very well either! New London is still a shithole...did nothing for the city!
Agreed! See Boston Marathon bombing...
Maybe, just maybe...
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Judge Jeanine Pirro (if you can listen to her voice for long enough) connects some dots from Bundy to "Dirty Harry" to Harry's Son to the Chinese Solar Power project.