The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: hyatt76 on July 08, 2008, 08:58:35 AM

Title: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: hyatt76 on July 08, 2008, 08:58:35 AM: Perhaps because I am a new member and haven't read everything...BUT...I read alot of postings concerning what type of weapon is best...or what kind of ammo is best...however, the REAL question should be "Do I know lhow to use whatever I own?" Practice, of course..but what kind of practice? Two of the best books I have read teaching survival techniques are...William E. Fairbairn "Shooting to Live" and Rex Applegates "Kill or be Killed". Rex was a protege of Fairbairn so the styles are similar. Both give the "down and dirty" of survival.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: CZShooter on July 08, 2008, 09:18:11 AM: Welcome, Hyatt76! You've stumbled upon the greatest forum on the planet.

You are correct...training is the number one most important aspect to self defense. But, it is also the most hard to come by...without dropping a pretty penny, and in most cases travelling to some remote location. I am lucky that my local club hosts some pretty good training...but it is nowhere near the level of a week at Gunsite. I wish there were more cost-effective options available. I had even given though to becomming a reserve LEO just to get to train with our local boys-in-blue. But, I digress.

As far as practice...I highly recommend shooting competition. I am an IDPA man. The courses of fire are all set up as self-defense scenarios and you draw from concealment, shoot from available cover, shoot on the move, etc... There are those that discount competitions as viable practice, but I disagree. Its a great environment to evaluate you gun handling skills, as well as your equipment. There's nothing like the confidence that you can draw from concealment and deliver 2 accurate rounds CM in less than a second. :)

Just my $0.02 before tax.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: ellis4538 on July 08, 2008, 11:58:34 AM: Welcome Hyatt76. I agree with CZShooter. I am an IDPA and USPSA competitor have been for years. Check out their web sites for rules and stuff. Use the club locator thread to find a club(s) near you and visit (both match day and practice day). Most enlightening.

Richard
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: pioneer on July 08, 2008, 04:33:44 PM: Massad Ayoob is one of the top use of force trainers in the business. Anything you can get with his name on it is a good thing. "Google" his name and you will get bunches of hits on his work.

Whatever you do, do not believe anything you see on entertainment TV or in the movies, about gun use. Most Hollyweirdos have no idea what-so-ever in anything relating to firearms. There are a very few exceptions, but most gun issues in entertainment is written by a screenwriter who is only interested in maintaining an interesting plot at the expense of authenticity.

Take anything you read on the Internet gun forums with a grain of salt as well. There is NO BEST GUN, or NO BEST AMMO, HOLSTER, etc. What you are reading about, are the guns and ammo they have bought and like, or in some cases are stuck with and trying to justify. What works well for one person, does not necessarily work for everyone. Do your research and make your own decision.

Find a well respected tactical trainer in your area and get some professional training. It is one thing to go out into the boonies and shoot at targets and beer cans, but it is quite another to get professional training. Also there are many gun store commandos who spread old wife's tales and myths, you should be aware of. Granted, professional training can be spendy, but ultimately it may well be worth it. If it's within your budget, instead of taking a week off from work to go camping, or to see Aunt Ethel, book a week at a shooting school for both you and your spouse / significant other and make it a vacation. It's probably cheaper than Disney World, and will last a lifetime. Hopefully, a long lifetime.

Finally, do not be fooled by gun reviews in gun magazines. You may notice that the guns and gear of their sponsors tend to get the best reviews.

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/Motivation/Peace.jpg)
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: 2HOW on July 08, 2008, 05:53:06 PM: Formal shooting matches are good, but I recommend a place where you can train. A place you can move and shoot ,run and shoot ,practice point shooting and drawing and shooting. Once you get the fundamentals down you need to TRAIN.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: twyacht on July 08, 2008, 09:20:29 PM: Jeff Cooper stated the mind is the most lethal weapon, when in the state of mind to utilize its potential.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QeNPJ0fgWVY

The Mozambique Drill used in this drill was "taught" to an actor Tom Cruise,.... (nevermind) but the drill is real.

Practice, practice alot, practice weak handed, practice with whom you can learn .

Stay Safe
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: John McCreery on July 09, 2008, 12:18:32 PM: Quote from: 2HOW on July 08, 2008, 05:53:06 PM
Formal shooting matches are good, but I recommend a place where you can train. A place you can move and shoot ,run and shoot ,practice point shooting and drawing and shooting. Once you get the fundamentals down you need to TRAIN.
'
I agree with 2how. It's very important to hit where you are aiming. It's also important to be able to move and not get hit. Most martial arts teach you to move off the x or center line of attack. No different in gunfighting. If you think a quick draw from concealement, stand and deliver, will get you out of a mess when you might be behind the curve, well....

There are some really good trainers out there that travel and may host a class close to you. IDPA, USPSA are great for trigger time and can add some stress to the formula. Force on Force scenarios are one of the best ways to test to see if your training will hold up to a real world situation.

There is more to self defense than the gun. Trainers like Michael Janich, Tom Sotis, Gabe Suarez ( I do some teaching for Gabe so have a bias), teach integration of empty hand, knife, gun, improvised weapons

Plus, there is a great collection of knowledge here. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: DonWorsham on July 09, 2008, 01:08:51 PM: 2How and John McCreery have it right You need a place to train and you need to move and shoot. For the vast majority of us there isn't a place we can do that (I'm talking about going beyond what is allowed in IDPA, etc).

Force on Force classes using air soft guns gets us alot closer to our needs. If you can't get out to a class (none in your area) you could use your back yard or basement. There are books, DVDs and classes out there, just look for them.

Gabe Suarez brought a class to Ohio last year that I attended. It can really open your eyes about moving then shooting. One of the best parts of attending the class was the practice I put in prior (I had already consumed Gabe's DVD on the subject). At the age of 57 I found out my mind understood what to do but my legs were slow to follow. Re-acting, moving, drawing from concealment and shooting don't come easy (to me)...you need to practice you need to train.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: tumblebug on July 09, 2008, 03:49:12 PM: And it's OK to brag on your sponsers because they are paying for it.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: DesertMarine on July 09, 2008, 10:48:11 PM: There is a lot of validity to what everyone has said here. A person needs to learn the basics of shooting. Training and competiition teaches and helps to bring everything together when you are in a stressful situation. The more you train, the more you will fall into your training when under stress. Learn from whomever you feel will help you with what you feel you need, whether it is Gunsite or other training methods or trainers. Competition also helps. All of that and practice, practice and then practice some more. When you start feeling like you are not progressing, go back to the basics. Someone said that practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect.

As far as equipment goes, use what you feel will do the job and are comfortable with. I prefer either .357 Mag, or .45 for vehicle and personal carry and AR for in the home, but other persons prefer other calibers and equipment. They are all valid choices.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: twyacht on July 10, 2008, 04:59:47 AM: "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
Bruce Lee
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: DonWorsham on July 10, 2008, 08:41:11 AM: Quote from: tumblebug on July 09, 2008, 03:49:12 PM
And it's OK to brag on your sponsers because they are paying for it.

Is that a reference to me? And how does that comment help Hyatt76 with his question on training for self-defense? Tumblebug, do you have any references to training or positive training suggestions for Hyatt76?

I don't have sponsers. I took a class that helped me in my quest for self-defense training and I'm passing that on.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: tumblebug on July 10, 2008, 09:43:11 AM: SORRY Don the coment was for PIONEER's last statement about gun review's & SPONSER'S.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: tumblebug on July 10, 2008, 09:48:57 AM: By the way glad to have you back. Or were you lurking all the time.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: DonWorsham on July 10, 2008, 10:16:03 AM: Quote from: tumblebug on July 10, 2008, 09:48:57 AM
By the way glad to have you back. Or were you lurking all the time.

Never far from the forum...just limited time to post...it's summer get out side...shoot...
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 10, 2008, 11:20:37 AM: Quote from: DonWorsham on July 10, 2008, 10:16:03 AM
Never far from the forum...just limited time to post...it's summer get out side...shoot...

;D
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: jaybet on July 10, 2008, 12:32:13 PM: Quote from: DonWorsham on July 10, 2008, 10:16:03 AM
Never far from the forum...just limited time to post...it's summer get out side...shoot...
Hey Don...I was kinda wondering what happened to you. My life has gotten so hectic this summer that shooting is really hard to get to (and it is really starting to bug me).
I'd love to simplify my life one day which should allow a lot more range time.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: hyatt76 on July 10, 2008, 12:49:06 PM: Thanks to alll of you for your input...you might find the following of interest...this is generally considered the granddady of all other books on handgun self-defense.
WWW.gutterfighting.org/files/Shooting_to_live.pdf
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: ratcatcher55 on July 10, 2008, 06:04:20 PM: There probably never been a better time in history for a person to get instruction in pistol craft. There are dozens of very good instructors around the country.

Gun handling and markmanship are very important but mindset and awareness trump both of them. I'm a dedicated Farnamite so look into DTI classes. Gunsite or Thunder Ranch are great if you can spare the time. Tom Givens and Larry Mudget are top notch.

I would like to take a class from Suarez or Trident Concepts but I never can arrange my time off to take them when they have open dates.

I shoot IDPA but I would never try and clear a building against multiple armed guys at a in seconds. If start picking up bad habits, I slow down and do it correctly. This isn't a knock on IDPA but IMHO it's not training it's a game. I do enjoy shooting it!
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 11, 2008, 02:05:06 AM: Quote from: ratcatcher55 on July 10, 2008, 06:04:20 PM
There probably never been a better time in history for a person to get instruction in pistol craft. There are dozens of very good instructors around the country.

Gun handling and markmanship are very important but mindset and awareness trump both of them. I'm a dedicated Farnamite so look into DTI classes. Gunsite or Thunder Ranch are great if you can spare the time. Tom Givens and Larry Mudget are top notch.

I would like to take a class from Suarez or Trident Concepts but I never can arrange my time off to take them when they have open dates.

I shoot IDPA but I would never try and clear a building against multiple armed guys at a in seconds. If start picking up bad habits, I slow down and do it correctly. This isn't a knock on IDPA but IMHO it's not training it's a game. I do enjoy shooting it!

I never shot competition, but from what others on here have said I guess the training aspect is in shooting faster and having the pressure of a timer.
I've been getting the Suarez News letter lately and he says a lot of things that sound sensible. I don't know what his resume or history are but he seems to make a lot of sense and I would like to hear from some one who has taken his courses.
Title: Re: Training for SelfDefense
Post by: John McCreery on July 11, 2008, 08:14:58 AM: Quote from: hyatt76 on July 10, 2008, 12:49:06 PM
Thanks to alll of you for your input...you might find the following of interest...this is generally considered the granddady of all other books on handgun self-defense.
WWW.gutterfighting.org/files/Shooting_to_live.pdf

You are my hero! Someone told me the site was down since Mr. Cestari passed away.

Fairbairn & Sykes are the ganddaddys of practical combatives. Anything you can find from them is awesome. Oneill is also good, Carl Cestari, Jim Grover, are all people who carry on with those systems and could be worked into the overall toolbox.