The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: CybScryb on July 10, 2008, 10:59:32 PM
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Question for all...many of the TV gun gurus preach keeping an AR well lubed (over lubed IMHO). I have an almost broken in Stag lefty that I've been cleaning and lubing with my normal Cylinder & Slide Dunk. So far so good but I've noticed a few failures to feed and am beginning to wonder if I should apply a bit more lube during use.
Here in the Vegas Valley, the lack of rain turns the desert dirt into a fine talc like dust and the Dunk seems to almost repel dust. My Glocks, Colts, Smith & Wessons, Dan Wesson, Rugers, AK's and SKS all seem to thrive on the use of Dunk with a very light application of grease on the metal to metal parts and little else.
Am I under lubing by using just the Dunk and a very light coating of Brownell's Action Magic lube? I don't want to damage the firearm either by under lubing or by over lubing and attracting abrasive dust.
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Probably OVER lubing. Parts only need lube where they move against one another, and then we are talking one drop on this side, one on the other and wipe that in. If you can See that it's lubed you have to much. And in a dry dusty climate lube attracts every bit of dust and dirt that can get to it.
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The only TV "keep it wet" that I saw was when they were shooting thousands of rounds in a hurry. The guns were so hot they smoked when they lubed them, and I figured it was heat evaporating the lube.
I lube mine with a cloth and gun oil. I will put on just enough to give a glossy look but not feel oily, and it has never given me any trouble. If it is going into storage after shooting in wet conditions (rain or snow, or even after bringing in from sub-zero temps where condensation can be a problem) I will coat things heavily after cleaning as corrosion insurance, but I will wipe it down before using again.
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Since it's FTF, have you been cleaning the magazines as well?
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My feeling is that you are under lubing but more info would be helpful. How many rounds do you fire (after cleaning) before you get the feed failures? Are you slowly firing from the bench or are you burning through magazines practicing for a 3-gun match? Have you talked to other AR shooters in your area?
The oil in Dunk-Kit is for surface protection, not lubrication. From Cylinder & Slide's web site: "It leaves a very light coat of oil on the firearm that will protect it, however, you will still need to do the proper lubrication...". I'm new to ARs myself (and I use Dunk-It) but in the six months I have had mine I always oil it up so it is visibly wet and haven't had any problems.
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I believe I know the episode you are talking about. I think it was a Guns And Ammo TV and Dick Metcalf shot several thousand rounds though the gun as fast as he could. I think if you just shot the gun normally, and did not get it super hot, a normal amount of lube would be plenty. I usually take a patch wet with CLP and wipe the bolt down. I have not had any problems, with two different ARs.
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My general cleaning is to place the upper receiver in a 4" x 42" PVC contraption I built that is filled with Poly Dunk to soak while I soak the bolt in Hoppe's #9. After the bolt is cleaned thoroughly, it gets a good soaking in a pan of Poly Dunk or Dunk (depends on which pan is free) and then three drops of oil prior to reassembly. The barrel is brushed and then cleaned with Butch's Bore Cleaner. I only apply lube to metal on metal and let the Dunk add it's lubrication while soaking.
A day at the range for the AR only generally involves beetween 300 and 1000 rounds from standing, sitting, prone and some off-hand shots. Rapid fire doesn't have a lot of appeal as I'm more interested in round placement at this point. I took the rifle with me while I was out on a service call and was able to stop by the range on the way home today and put 600 rounds through the rifle with no FTF's.
I used the Poly Dunk on my G30 and put four of the smallest drops of grease on metal-on-metal contact points possible. The Glock has never failed to feed or fire and by my ammo receipts has put something close to 20,000 rounds down range to date. I do clean all mags for my guns in Dunk or Poly Dunk and tend to dis-assemble the mags and soak all pieces in Dunk and then blow the excess out with compressed air so I don't carry excess lube around picking up dust.
I first heard the Dick Metcalf run it wet on an earlier episode of G & A TV and then again when he put the 10K rounds through the AR. I tried a variety of lubricants upon moving to the Vegas Valley from Kansas back in '98 with progressively better results and then found Dunk at the 2006 Shot Show and knew I had found the best lube for the desert. But when I kept getting the FTF's in the AR, I began to doubt my choice.
I appreciate the suggestions and will try them all. An unreliable gun just won't cut it, but I haven't found a gun that can't be made reliable given time and patience.
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If you are shooting 300+ rounds then too little lube is the problem (assuming it is a lube problem!). Dunk-Kit isn't an operating lubricant and three drops of oil aren't going to last. As for the dust issue, I think you have to look at carrying versus shooting as covered by Bruce Gray in his article on pistol lubrication. The small amount of oil/grease desirable for a duty weapon is not enough for an extended range session. Your G30 is designed to run with a small amount of lube as you described but the bolt of an AR is in a much harsher environment. A good article on AR maintenance is www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf
I think you will find that your few drops of oil is ideal for storage and will be enough to run a mag or two if necessary, but before going to the range you'll want to get everything that moves good and wet.
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My Drill instructors were FANATICS about minimal lube, they were Nam vets and were talking about combat use
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My Drill instructors were FANATICS about minimal lube, they were Nam vets and were talking about combat use
I have absolutely no military experience so I ask this as an honest question, not to be argumentative - did your Drill Instructors fire 500 to 1000 rounds in a combat engagement before cleaning and lubing? I think we agree that minimal lube is good to keep an AR ready to go when carrying it, but I believe a day at the range or in a training class is a different environment with different requirements.
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I have absolutely no military experience so I ask this as an honest question, not to be argumentative - did your Drill Instructors fire 500 to 1000 rounds in a combat engagement before cleaning and lubing? I think we agree that minimal lube is good to keep an AR ready to go when carrying it, but I believe a day at the range or in a training class is a different environment with different requirements.
500 - 1000 rounds ? Maybe. sometimes none some times every thing but the kitchen sink. Thing is, an AR is built to tighter tolerances than something like an AK,lube takes up space, but works on a nearly microscopic level, so what benefit do you get from goo running down the side of the part ?
Second dust is attracted to any type of moisture. Tolerances on the guns I built at T/C were +/- .005 That's less than the diameter of a hair (.006 ) it does not take much dust to plug that space, also , lube freezes. You will not fire a "wet " anything in below freezing temps.
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I do not own a AR yet but I work with 2 friends who have them and shoot high power matches. I saw both episodes when Dick Metcalf said the AR must run wet and I discussed it with both of my friends. They both disagree and they both use a moly based lube on the moving parts. They both swear by it but like I said I have no personal experience yet. I do know with my Remington 7400 autoloader with the moving parts wet carrying it deer hunting for 3 weeks it gets covered in dirt and debree. So I switched to a dry lube made by Remington, but I can't find it anymore but I still have enough left for a while. Also I talked to a deputy at the county garage were I work who just did 2 tours in Iraq and he said that the soldiers over lubing their M16's had problems with jamming due to the dust sticking to everything. He said the dust over there is like talc and it cakes up when it gets wet. Maybe you can carry a bottle of spray lube to relube after you fire a couple of hundred rounds. Also Dick Metcalf said the heat from the direct gas impingement system is what causes the AR to stop running.I guess I will find out first hand as soon as I get my own AR.Keep us posted if you find a good solution.
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I think we are just about at the agree to disagree point but I have have a few more comments/opinions to explain my position.
The use of minimal lube on weapons in Iraq is to keep them functional after unavoidable exposure to dust and dirt - not to maximize the life of the gun. I am in the Arizona desert and a day at an outdoor range doesn't expose me to clouds of dust and I'm not forced to set my rifles in the dirt. I'm dirty and grimy but other than magazines that have dropped to the ground I don't have any hardware troubles.
When carrying a lot and shooting a little as in deer hunting, it is more important for the lube not to collect crud than it is for it to last for hundreds of shots. And I think wet refers to the presence of lubrication so if the dry moly lubes are providing lubrication for as many rounds as you shoot in a session then you are "wet".
So to CybScryb my recommendation is to experiment. Try different amounts and/or types of lube. After a couple hundred rounds work the action and see if it still feels a smooth as when you began. Field strip and see if you feel any grit on the bolt and carrier. And decide what you want from the gun. If it is an "end of the world" rifle, knowing it will run dry and for how long (at the expense of shorter life, in my opinion) is important. If you plan to shoot many thousands of rounds for accuracy you will want to keep it lubed. If dust does turn out to be a problem that may mean cleaning and lubing during a session at the range. The AR is a versatile platform but that doesn't mean one gun can do it all.
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Check out this link.
http://www.grantcunningham.com/lubricants101.html
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Ok, this has been my experience, so as usual, YMMV...
The carrier does not need a lot of lube to keep it going. Some light lube on the high spots, and then some additional during a shooting session is about it. Spraying such as Dick Metcalf is doing is fine. Some of what he is doing is in my second point.
Where most of the problems I have seen occur is that the bolt itself, which is a piston, does not get enough and then starts to drag instead of slide, slowing down the carrier/bolt combination. What I do when this starts is to squirt some into the bolt via the vent holes, and then cycle the carrier/bolt a few times to distribute it.
While I have seen an overly lubed carrier attract all sorts of stuff, and get gritty, I have not experienced or seen an over lubed bolt. The excess will just blow out the vents, and around the firing pin and out the back (not a lot though).
-Bidah
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My experience has shown that it's better to have a little more lube than a little less.
Do remember that many manufacturers are tightening up the tolerances on the components in an effort to increase accuracy. I've got some upper and lowers that are fit so tight that I almost have to slam them together to reassemble the rifle. I don't think the Vietnam era rifles were that tight.
In dusty, arid environments I still keep the rifle lubed up pretty good, but I also have the opportunity to clean it every night if I need to.
USSA-1
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When I was with a federal agency we M16A1s both in the field and on the range. No, we did not shoot 500 to 1000 rounds per session but our rifles got minimal cleaning and care as we did not have issue weapons. We got different rifles every time we went out. Our rifles got maybe some light oil for lube. Only time we had problems were in training using blanks and rifles were not kept "wet". My personal AR and 1911 both get a combination of lithium grease with powder moly, light coats. No problems. If I was going to shoolt up to 1K rounds per session, I would lube several times during the session.
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The M16s I worked on in the army were old and worn. They worked good when there was a light coat of oil everywhere. My AR-15s work best when there is hardly any oil except a drop on moving surfaces. The only serious problem I ever had was over-lubing it once, which carbon-fouled the bolt and carrier so bad it wouldn't even move. A bare minimum of oil works much better for me.