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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Ksail101 on July 15, 2008, 01:35:02 PM

Title: Malicious Intent?
Post by: Ksail101 on July 15, 2008, 01:35:02 PM: I keep reading about this charge in magazines. And I wanted to know the opinions of real ccw carriers and gun people, what is too much gun? And do you think about this at all or do you just slap on your .45 with the best self-defense load that you can find hoping to make the biggest wound possible?

I guess I dont understand how one can determine how much self defense is too much? And is this something that I should really think about when loading my mags next time with the supreme ammo or should I just stick with FMJ\Ball ammo?

Also i guess also is carrying a 9mm with hydra shok something that would warrent this charge? And if a police officer should happen to pull you over in your car and you tell him you are carrying and you show him the proper ID can he\she look at you pistol and possibly charge you with this, or if maybe you have a rifle or shotgun in your car at the time?
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: SwoopSJ on July 15, 2008, 02:40:06 PM: I have a CCW permit and the majority of the time I carry a S&W 642 .38. However, when attire allows, I carry my XD .45 compact. At least in my neck of the woods, KY, the malicious intent argument over caliber and bullet design is a non factor. Around here, people figure that in the situation where a gun would be used to save your life, it doesn't matter if you're shooting a .22 or a howitzer. Your choice of handgun caliber should not have to reflect the amount of "dead" your attacker wants to make you. As far as bullet design goes, cops use hollow points and they are never accused of maliciious intent because of it, so why not private citizens. IMHO, only hollow points should be used in order to prevent accidental injuries due to over penetration. In response to your last question, in Kentucky, the only illegal ammunition is armor piercing, so even if the police wasted their time checking your choice of ammo, they would have no beef with hollow points whether they be .22 or .50, handgun or rifle.

Swoop
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: ellis4538 on July 15, 2008, 03:28:56 PM: Pick a carry weapon and load that is known to be carried by the police...if it's good for their protection it is also good for you protection. This and many other similar questions are covered in Combat Handguns Magazine (one of my favorites).

Richard

PS: Maybe this could be covered in "Best Defense" if you ask MB nicely!
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: pioneer on July 15, 2008, 05:47:35 PM: Malicious intent is a term used by trial lawyers to get more money for their clients. They try to convince a jury that since a .38 is "sufficient," anyone who carries anything bigger is a blood-thirsty killer. Ditto with ammo. They constantly try to demonstrate with "expert" witnesses that all hollow-point ammo is evil, since our military isn't allowed to use it. They like to believe that the names of ammo, such as "Black Talon," "Extreme Shock," etc. show that you not only carry for defense, but you are a born killer who brutally gunned down their innocent, law abiding client for no reason.

If, God forbid, any of us are forced to defend ourselves, you need to get an attorney who knows how to try a gun case. The NRA can be a good source for such attorneys, or your local lawyer's referral service. Don't rely on your cousin's divorce lawyer, who will sell you down the river for an out of court settlement. It may be a good idea to enroll in a form of legal insurance which has various attorneys who specialize in different areas of law. I've been a member of Pre-Paid Legal for many years as a cop, and kept the account into retirement. Not a bad idea if you have to defend yourself and then find yourself in the back of a patrol car.

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/Police/130-224.jpg)
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: twyacht on July 15, 2008, 08:42:58 PM: Malicious intent can also be construed in shot placement and training. As a CCW holder, here in coastal NC, my Kel-Tec P3AT in .380 with cor-bon or speer JHP's is the choice for me. Winter can be my Kimber Ultra .45 or M+P .40.

Regardless, if (God forbid), I have to discharge a clip of .380's into a BG to defend my family or myself; that "malicious intent" will be brought up. EVEN if I had a Seecamp .25 or .32. It won't matter. Especially if I have a nice tight group center mass. Myself and others train for that accuracy.

I practice A LOT. My CCW instructor said if you defend yourself with lethal force, there will be an a** crawling investigation anyway.

Whether it was a .380 or S&W .500, Rem 870 with 3" slugs, the result will be the same; "Were you justified?"

Previous posts regarding talking to the police are true. Its the lawyers that can make or break your "intent".

Hope none have to, but there's more than one on this forum that will.
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: Majer on July 15, 2008, 09:47:32 PM: I would hope that MY Lawyer would argue that the only Malicious intent was on the part of the lowlife that chose me to be his victim. If the lowlife hadn't tried to take/hurt what is mine than he wouldn't have been injured/Dead
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: Mr.45 on July 20, 2008, 03:59:56 AM: I have heard much on this debate and know that a choice to carry ANY ammo, let alone a spare magazine shows MI to many lawyers and anti-gunners alike. My answer is as follows; I carry 147gr. winchester white box jhp with a spare 8rd magazine of the same. Nowhere on the box does it say "Kill" or "Destroy." It says self defence and that is what it will be used for!
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: CurrieS103 on July 20, 2008, 07:39:11 AM: Quote from: Mr.45 on July 20, 2008, 03:59:56 AM
I have heard much on this debate and know that a choice to carry ANY ammo, let alone a spare magazine shows MI to many lawyers and anti-gunners alike. My answer is as follows; I carry 147gr. winchester white box jhp with a spare 8rd magazine of the same. Nowhere on the box does it say "Kill" or "Destroy." It says self defence and that is what it will be used for!

+1..and I carry a Glock 30, 230g JHP with a spare mag. Here in South Florida, I'd carry my AR or 12GA if I could get away with it.
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: 2HOW on July 20, 2008, 01:17:39 PM: Kevin, I think any handgun that steps outside the mainstream would bring attention and may cause a prosecutor to zero in on it. A good rule is to stay with what LEO uses, ammo also. I see no problem in a .44 short revolver, but some may. Anything larger than this like a .44 mag or .445 so on and so on would probably take attention away from why a gun was used to begin with. It sucks to have to be politically correct. "they" are always looking for a way to bring attention to our lifestyle. TOUJOURS PRET,, Jan
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: DDMac on July 20, 2008, 03:33:04 PM: 2HOW, you have too much!! You should be willing to share with them that don't. Your car, your wallet, your wife... all excess you don't deserve, let alone using FORCE to hog your wealth for yourself. GREEDY Basset!! SHAME. ;) ;)

Malicious Intent Mac.
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: PegLeg45 on July 20, 2008, 07:37:29 PM: I have a special set of circumstances (a disability) that would prevent me from fleeing from a potential bad person.
So, the numero uno concern for me is RELIABILITY.
I carry what I know, through trial and error, to be the most reliable firearm and ammo combo for me.
Which in summer is a Glock 27 in .40, and in the one month of winter (south Ga) a Commander in .45.
Both are stacked with Cor-Bon 200 gr. JHP because it has proven over many years to be accurate, potent enough for the job, and most of all reliable (in my guns).
I guess the bottom line is I choose RELIABILITY first and LIABILITY second.

Test, Train, Test, and Train some more.

No one WANTS to shoot another human being, but if forced into it, be prepared.
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: Pathfinder on July 20, 2008, 07:53:21 PM: Quote from: PegLeg45 on July 20, 2008, 07:37:29 PM
I have a special set of circumstances (a disability) that would prevent me from fleeing from a potential bad person.
So, the numero uno concern for me is RELIABILITY.
I carry what I know, through trial and error, to be the most reliable firearm and ammo combo for me.
Which in summer is a Glock 27 in .40, and in the one month of winter (south Ga) a Commander in .45.
Both are stacked with Cor-Bon 200 gr. JHP because it has proven over many years to be accurate, potent enough for the job, and most of all reliable (in my guns).
I guess the bottom line is I choose RELIABILITY first and LIABILITY second.

Test, Train, Test, and Train some more.

No one WANTS to shoot another human being, but if forced into it, be prepared.

Welcome to the site, PegLeg, and good choices for the CCW. I would chose a Sig P220 instead of the Glock, but then I'm already on the do-do list with the local Glock bigots here. ;D
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: PegLeg45 on July 20, 2008, 08:25:42 PM: I basically only chose the Glock 27 for its size and weight for concealability. At the time I was still in a wheelchair and carry modes were an issue. Also, there wasn't a big selection of decent priced micro-1911's like the new EMP.
If I could trade my Glock, and get a decent price on a .40 EMP from SA, I'd probably ditch the Glock.
I am a dyed-in-the-wool 1911 fan but in the loooooong hot summers in south Georgia, the Glock was a sensible choice.
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: kmitch200 on July 21, 2008, 01:43:57 PM: Quote from: Ksail101 on July 15, 2008, 01:35:02 PM
I keep reading about this charge in magazines. And I wanted to know the opinions of real ccw carriers and gun people, what is too much gun? And do you think about this at all or do you just slap on your .45 with the best self-defense load that you can find hoping to make the biggest wound possible?

I'm not looking for the "biggest wound possible". I'm looking for something, anything to STOP an attack. So are you.
Even if you miss and hit a tree, if the attack stops and you are still whole, it is a successful defense.

Quote
Also i guess also is carrying a 9mm with hydra shok something that would warrent this charge? And if a police officer should happen to pull you over in your car and you tell him you are carrying and you show him the proper ID can he\she look at you pistol and possibly charge you with this, or if maybe you have a rifle or shotgun in your car at the time?

I don't know about the laws where you are. In my neck of the ~~Godforsaken desert~~ woods, I can have a belt fed 50 in my car and nobody can snivel about it.
JHPs are safer due to less penetration. This has been documented and defended ad nauseum.

Carry what you can hit with. Even if it isn't fashionable.
You're probably going to get sued civilly anyway, so it might as well be a healthy you that gets sued.
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: 2HOW on July 21, 2008, 05:20:16 PM: Quote from: kmitch200 on July 21, 2008, 01:43:57 PM
I'm not looking for the "biggest wound possible". I'm looking for something, anything to STOP an attack. So are you.
Even if you miss and hit a tree, if the attack stops and you are still whole, it is a successful defense.

I don't know about the laws where you are. In my neck of the ~~Godforsaken desert~~ woods, I can have a belt fed 50 in my car and nobody can snivel about it.
JHPs are safer due to less penetration. This has been documented and defended ad nauseum.

Carry what you can hit with. Even if it isn't fashionable.
You're probably going to get sued civilly anyway, so it might as well be a healthy you that gets sued.

You may get sued ,but with help from the "castle doctrine" you may get away unscathed if its in your home or vehicle. that is if your state has this law. I still say there are plenty of carry arms that wont single you out as a "gun nut" you should also be careful of "specialty ammo" you know those "cop killer " bullets like Black talons (oops) note to self - change ammo. anyway, you get my drift. ::)
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: Rastus on July 21, 2008, 07:58:21 PM: All good comments and something to ponder. I have a simple mind so...I can't ponder such things too deeply.

As such, I can only see so far as to determine a real threat and have wit to act upon it. I act only to stop the threat, not to kill, wound or maim in any way. I only want to stop the threat. I have no malicious intent, a guy at some gun shop (can't remember which one) recommended a particular ammunition to me to stop a threat. I carry it by his recommendation.
Title: Re: Malicious Intent?
Post by: tumblebug on July 23, 2008, 05:46:42 PM: Simple minded neeevvveeeerrrrrrr.