The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Ksail101 on July 15, 2008, 01:51:11 PM
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It is midnight on a friday and you are working late in downtown. You are carrying like always, but still the night in the city always seems to get your blood preasure up. As you aproach your car two males one armed with a knife that he is showing you, the other using his voice to command you to hand over the keys. The guy with the knife is a bit intoxicated from the smell and out for blood, not so much the keys, and wants to get you with a little prick from his blade as a reminder of this night. He is on his way towards you...
Now the other guy aggressive as he is in commanding you to hand over the keys, has not shown a weapon. Do you figure him to be armed no matter what?
So what would you do in this situation?
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Something like this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QeNPJ0fgWVY (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QeNPJ0fgWVY)
Yeah, I know, it's a repeat. But I still like it.
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Well, this may be the totally wrong thing to do, but I would first engage the threat showing the weapon. Upon drawing my gun to prevent the knife attack the other perp would either a) back off or b) show his hand (reveal weapon, true intent). Whatever the second perps reaction, my primary concern would be the individual with the weapon already displayed. I figure if his weapon is ready for action, he is the immediate threat. If this is the wrong tactic, someone please help me out.
Swoop
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I would...
1.Once recognized,IMMEDIATELY neutralize the KNOWN to be armed threat.
2.IF the second threat has not TOTALLY disengaged(ran away/thrown himself face down,flat on the ground),neutralize him also.
3.Prepare for/neutralize any other not initially seen threats.
IMO neutralized=TOTALLY incapable of posing any threat to myself/family/friends. Pulseless is even better.
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First I would try to gain time/space by stepping back and to the side as I draw. It is a proven fact that a normal male can cover 21' before most of us can draw from under our vest or whatever so we are already in trouble (the fact the perp #1 has been drinking may add time to your decision, maybe not. If I have gained enough time/space and don't have to shoot I won't but if I need to I would. Next I would check on perp #2 and decide then, if I am able, what action is necessary.
Richard
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I would shoot the guy with the knife while keeping him between me and the 2nd guy and probably shoot the 2nd guy after the 1st fell unless he turned his back wether he had a weapon or not. ;D
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Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies...dead me tell no sories.
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LOVE that scene, but the variables matter, the Mozambique Drill immobilizes multiple threats at close quarters. 2 to the chest 1 to the head area, assess all targets, make it a mechanical reaction. brutal but effective. Training and practice, training and practice..... know your target.
Had a situation at an ATM one night in Charlotte, fortunately the "homeys" didn't want to get too close. Me and my Springfield 1911, kept "my peace", without things getting out of hand. Simply "letting them know" helped me and my wife.
Tough call;I would shoot the guy with the knife while keeping him between me and the 2nd guy and probably shoot the 2nd guy after the 1st fell unless he turned his back wether he had a weapon or not. ;D
Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies...dead me tell no sories.
I'lll just leave it with that.
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Known threat is BG with the knife, get as much distance as possible (21 foot rule) Take him out if needed
Most BG's are cowards, if all they have is a knife and you pull a gun, they will more than likely run away. Drugs and /or alcohol may change their mindset about running away...Take him out if needed
hitting someone in the head under stress is a hard thing to do, If 2 to the chest doesn't work ( possibly body armor/drugs/ alcohol) Then shoot for the pelvic girdle If BG can't stand, he can't chase you as you run away.
If BG do run away after display of handgun, Call 911/ Police IMMEDIATELY, Be the first with the report of wrong doing. This may save your right to have a CCW.
If shots are fired, Call 911, report that you were attacked and the BG is down and request Medical help, That will show you did everything you could to help the BG survive (to be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law) rather than just let him bleed to death.
above all else, Call a Lawyer and DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE without Your Lawyer there. I don't know if this has been posted yet, But it is worth the time to watch.
http://media.regent.edu/lawPreview/031408_DontTalktoPolice.wmv
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I can't resist this If a Liberal Democrap that's not enough info for him to shoot
If a Rep Make sure you have a big enough gun and fire away.
I know that's bad but I just couldn't resist it ::) :o
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Plus 1 to Haz and to what a couple of others said. After that, I don't know. Maybe wake up and have breakfast?
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all I'm going to say is 21 ft rule.
you really want to get freaked out, get a buddy, a dummy knife and a dummy gun... see who wins, its very sobering.
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all I'm going to say is 21 ft rule.
you really want to get freaked out, get a buddy, a dummy knife and a dummy gun... see who wins, its very sobering.
21 foot rule is a good rule. Officers can use it. But...in a jury of your peers a gun owner defending himself does not have the same rights of deadly force unless enunciated by the laws of the jurisdiciton you are in. You may do the right thing, you may not even be charged, but agressive anti-gun DA's are going to put a high percentage of righteous self-defense oriented actions in the "bad guy" category and send good guys to jail.
Better to spend my remaining days in jail as opposed to wishing I had done something as the shawdows close in for a dirt nap. Odds of survival go up if one responds to a deadly situation....then it's the odds of the jury and how well you keep your mouth shut after the battle.
My name is, he/them wanted to kill me, his weapon is here, the witnesses are over there, the evidence is over yonder (his empty shells, etc.) and, "I'm sorry officer, you know how important this is. I realize you need a quick statement but I need to speak with an attorney before I answer any questions." Keep your mouth shut...some say the above is too much to say. Officers are trained to realize the physiological affects of a conflict and how it makes them appear euphoric after a shooting and how that is a bad thing for them. But it's "one way" training for most because they are also trained that the quickest statements are the most truthful. Go figure.
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I agree with the 21 foot rule it has been proven in court to a prossicuter I believe in Arizona by Massad Ayoob, he key thing I strees here as I suspect you all know is to have a VERY good attorney how can and will submit the 21 foot rule, mind set before, during, and after is what saves the bacon. Lets not forget civil court that is sure to come.Just because the jury does not believe you does not nessicarly seal the case there have been times where the sitting judge over ruled a jury. I have seen no mention of BG2. Is he still a threat, did he get away or is he compliant? last I was in fear of my life and I want my attorney is all you need to say for at least 72 hours so that you have time to calm down. Do not talk to ANY one about what happened. It is one of the worst things to go through by yourself but just remember you won't for long.
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i would think a good demo/ video of the 21 ft being applied by an expert would take care of the jury.
A SD class I took about 5 years ago had us go into a room with a dummy gun, an instructor at the other end of the room( about 25 ft) had a dummy knife, but did not let you know he had it til he started running at you. Not a single person got the gun out of the holster before we were stabed. Not one, several of them were long time comp shooters.
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Gresham on PDTV made that same point about the 21 foot rule a couple of years ago - if someone wants you, they have a knife, and get within 21 feet, you will get cut. Period.
As for mindset and statements, do remember Mas Ayoob's instructions - I was just trying to stop him officer. Not that you were trying to kill him, that makes you a murderer in the eyes of the prosecutor. Just trying to stop him.
And as posted on this site in another thread - do NOT SAY ANYTHING MORE to the police - they will find a way to hang you on just about any word you use in a sentence. Get a damn good lawyer, let them talk to the police on your behalf.
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Gresham on PDTV made that same point about the 21 foot rule a couple of years ago - if someone wants you, they have a knife, and get within 21 feet, you will get cut. Period.
As for mindset and statements, do remember Mas Ayoob's instructions - I was just trying to stop him officer. Not that you were trying to kill him, that makes you a murderer in the eyes of the prosecutor. Just trying to stop him.
And as posted on this site in another thread - do NOT SAY ANYTHING MORE to the police - they will find a way to hang you on just about any word you use in a sentence. Get a damn good lawyer, let them talk to the police on your behalf.
I heard a Tom Gresham show one night when a doctor (MD.) called in with a gun question, during the conversation Tom said "Since I've got you on the line I've always wanted to ask a Doctor this question, What do you think of the statement , You SHOT HIM, He ONLY had a knife." The Doctor could not answer right off as he was laughing so hard. When he regained his composure he went into some detail about the severity of injuries that a knife can inflict.
The basic jist of his answer was that inside 10 yards if knife versus gun is not fair, the advantage is with the KNIFE .
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You put your hand on your knife at your side, I put my 1911 in my hand at my side, you are 21 feet away ,,wanna bet? I agree in the rule but there are always variables. Best to keep distance , no argument. Just saying.
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To all of you that have posted a answer to this question. Are you getting you info from really world training.Such as LEO, military or actual paid training such as Gunsite etc. or from someone on TV. The reason I ask this is if I were to follow some of this info, I might be following the wrong advice. We don't have CCW here in Wi. ( got voted down by one vote). So the only line I have ever heard is to say I was in fear of my life. Please understand! I'm not questiong your qualifications on being able to give the correct advice as I'm reading it here today, I just don't want to find out that I followed the wrong advice. As an example: I use to room with a guy who later in life as a bartender in his fathers bar had to return fire at someone who started shooting through the door of his bar as he started enter it. My old roomates response was to duck behind the bar and shoot back. Only problem was he killed the guys (shooter) brother at the end of the bar. They arrested him ( my old roomate) and charged him with murder. As I come to find out that is standard procedure here. The charges were dropped later and the shooter was charged with his brothers murder. Funny thing is I never asked him what he said to the LEO at the time or if he did say the right thing. I only remember that his hair went from black to gray in a short time. How do I know your advice is the right advice to follow ???
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Never take life changing advice on the internet as gospel. We mostly have some real world experience and training. But lawyers are the ones you need to ask legal questions. People on the net have experience that spans many years, laws have changed and techniques as well . If you want solid advice, get professional help, with training or lawers.
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From me both Miltary and paid training...
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What 2How said.
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I had to take a State mandated Armed Guard/Armored Car Guard course to be licensed by the state to work armed. It covered Article 37, Justification for use of force (including deadly force) The entire course was 14 days, about 150 hours total.I also have read most of Massad Ayoobs books, Plus some others on the subject matter.
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I had to take a State mandated Armed Guard/Armored Car Guard course to be licensed by the state to work armed. It covered Article 37, Justification for use of force (including deadly force) The entire course was 14 days, about 150 hours total.I also have read most of Massad Ayoobs books, Plus some others on the subject matter.
So do you feel qualified to answer the question? Are you sure the action you take would be righteous? Was your answer in line with the course you took?
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Yes
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Yes
Thank you
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You're welcome