The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Hazcat on July 23, 2008, 07:21:44 AM
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Visiting for conference
By Joe Johnson | joe.johnson@onlineathens.com | Story updated at 11:37 PM on Thursday, July 17, 2008
An Albany man who came to town for a conference was arrested on a felony charge and jailed for more than 18 hours because he had a gun in his hotel room.
Eric Dewayne Baylis, 45, said he didn't know that the hotel was owned by the University of Georgia, which put him in violation of a state law forbidding weapons within school safety zones.
Baylis, a maintenance worker with the Albany Housing Authority, was attending a four-day conference for the Georgia Housing Authority and Redevelopment Authority, held at the Georgia Center for Continuing Education Conference Center & Hotel on South Lumpkin Street.
His employers made the lodging arrangements and he had no idea the hotel is owned by UGA.
"I actually didn't know (it) was campus property," Baylis said Thursday, soon after posting a $2,000 bond to get out of jail.
"I carry my gun with me when I'm on the road traveling, and I took it out of my suitcase and just left it on the bed," Baylis said. "When the maid went through the room cleaning it and saw it, she told the manager, who called campus security."
Georgia Center Director Bill Crowe said the hotel will immediately change the form guests receive at check-in, paperwork that lists forbidden items and activities, like smoking.
"We are going to correct that," Crowe said. "I hate that the guy got arrested. We could have given him better information when he checked in."
During a lunch break Wednesday, Baylis got a call from the front desk that the police wanted to speak with him, he said.
Officers didn't lecture him on gun laws or allow him to move the pistol from his room to his car; they arrested Baylis and took him to the Clarke County Jail.
He was booked on a charge of possession of a weapon on school property about 6 p.m. Wednesday and bonded out at 12:30 p.m. Thursday.
Whether the man made an honest mistake or intentionally broke the law is a question to be decided in court, according to UGA Police Lt. Lisa Boone.
"The court can make whatever determination it wishes, but the Georgia Center is university property and in a school safety zone," Boone said.
More than 19,000 people attended conferences at the Georgia Center last year, and most stayed at least one night in the hotel, according to Crowe.
In the past, police didn't arrest guests who mistakenly brought weapons into the UGA-owned hotel, but now officers take no chances because gun violence on school grounds has been on the rise, according to Crowe.
"Historically, the police would walk them with their belongings to their cars, but not anymore, with all of the things that have been happening on campuses," he said.
Baylis said he made an honest mistake and didn't deserve to be arrested. He hopes his case will be dismissed when he returns to Athens for court Aug. 12.
And the way police handled the mistake has soured his feelings toward UGA.
"The campus security overdid it," he said. "Needless to say, I'm a Georgia Tech fan now."
Published in the Athens Banner-Herald on 071808
http://onlineathens.com/stories/071808/news_2008071800326.shtml
The hotel is owned by UGA but it is NOT on campus! If this holds up as "School property" I can see the gun grabbers using this loophole to their benefit. Just list everything under the Department of Education and we're screwed!
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How may drug dealers and rapists got away with their deeds while this "arrest" was going on?
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I just don't think leaving the gun out on the bed of a hotel room was that good of a idea.
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Hey, I agree not a smart move, but how was he to know it was 'school property', and the whole concept of a school owned hotel being a no carry zone is BS, IMNSHO.
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I worked not but a five minute drive from the school and knowing that area, I don't blame him for bringing it with him. The area around the school itself isn't bad but the nearby area isn't pleasant to say the least. Also, I wasn't aware UGA owned hotels either.
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If it was well marked( big sgins) or in the contract terms he signed to be in the hotel, I have no sympathy for him.
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If it was well marked( big sgins) or in the contract terms he signed to be in the hotel, I have no sympathy for him.
Your right TAB, we all know how well "Gun Free Zones" work!
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If it was well marked( big sgins) or in the contract terms he signed to be in the hotel, I have no sympathy for him.
I agree. However, the portion of the article that quotes the the Georgia Center Director talking about changing the sign-in forms would tend to indicate that it was not clearly marked.
And as far as leaving the weapon out on the bed...........that alone makes me SERIOUSLY question this guy's judgement. Whatever happened to securing one's weapon when it's not in one's immediate possession?
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Your right TAB, we all know how well "Gun Free Zones" work!
Gun free zones don't effect crime one way or another...
just to cut off the mass shooting argument... most mass shooting happen in places where people spend lots of time in... work, home, school, etc. and yes there have been shootings at ranges, police office and many other places where it is well known there are guns.
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"In the past, police didn't arrest guests who mistakenly brought weapons into the UGA-owned hotel, but now officers take no chances because gun violence on school grounds has been on the rise, according to Crowe."
Is campus violence really on the rise, or is it just reported more?
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Gun free zones don't effect crime one way or another...
just to cut off the mass shooting argument... most mass shooting happen in places where people spend lots of time in... work, home, school, etc. and yes there have been shootings at ranges, police office and many other places where it is well known there are guns.
Ya know what TAB? I'm just drunk enough and had a bad enough day to just lay it on out.
Stop spouting leftist BULLSHIT with out any facts to back you up! I am sick and tired of you not being able to read the simple English of the second amendment and not understand it!
PLEASE post some statistics as to how often (per capita) "mass shootings" happen in gun free zones as opposed to gun rights zones to uphold your inferred premise that they are equal or SHUT THE HELL UP!
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do you have any facts to support gun free zones having more crime?
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Ya know what TAB? I'm just drunk enough and had a bad enough day to just lay it on out.
Stop spouting leftist BULLSHIT with out any facts to back you up! I am sick and tired of you not being able to read the simple English of the second amendment and not understand it!
PLEASE post some statistics as to how often (per capita) "mass shootings" happen in gun free zones as opposed to gun rights zones to uphold your inferred premise that they are equal or SHUT THE HELL UP!
To subtle for you to take a hint TAB ?
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The worst mass shootings in modern U.S. history
Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:23 AM
Shooting rampages
The worst mass shootings in modern U.S. history:
• April 16, 2007: A gunman kills at least 32 people at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. The gunman kills himself.
• Oct. 16, 1991: George Hennard plows his pickup into a cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, then kills 23 people and himself.
• July 18, 1984: James Oliver Huberty kills 21 people at a McDonald's in San Ysidro, Calif., before police kill him.
• Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman kills 16 people and wounds 31 firing from a tower at the University of Texas at Austin.
• Aug. 20, 1986: Postal worker Pat Sherrill kills 14 people and himself at a post office in Edmond, Okla.
• April 20, 1999: Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris kill 12 students and one teacher before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.
Sources: Associated Press, Dispatch files
How's this for starters?
Mac.
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The worst mass shootings in modern U.S. history
Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:23 AM
Shooting rampages
The worst mass shootings in modern U.S. history:
• April 16, 2007: A gunman kills at least 32 people at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. The gunman kills himself.
• Oct. 16, 1991: George Hennard plows his pickup into a cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, then kills 23 people and himself.
• July 18, 1984: James Oliver Huberty kills 21 people at a McDonald's in San Ysidro, Calif., before police kill him.
• Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman kills 16 people and wounds 31 firing from a tower at the University of Texas at Austin.
• Aug. 20, 1986: Postal worker Pat Sherrill kills 14 people and himself at a post office in Edmond, Okla.
• April 20, 1999: Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris kill 12 students and one teacher before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.
Sources: Associated Press, Dispatch files
How's this for starters?
Mac.
What do you know, not ONE at a Police station or shooting range. Where's YOUR list TAB ?
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The worst mass shootings in modern U.S. history
Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:23 AM
Shooting rampages
The worst mass shootings in modern U.S. history:
• April 16, 2007: A gunman kills at least 32 people at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. The gunman kills himself.
• Oct. 16, 1991: George Hennard plows his pickup into a cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, then kills 23 people and himself.
• July 18, 1984: James Oliver Huberty kills 21 people at a McDonald's in San Ysidro, Calif., before police kill him.
• Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman kills 16 people and wounds 31 firing from a tower at the University of Texas at Austin.
• Aug. 20, 1986: Postal worker Pat Sherrill kills 14 people and himself at a post office in Edmond, Okla.
• April 20, 1999: Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris kill 12 students and one teacher before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.
Sources: Associated Press, Dispatch files
How's this for starters?
Mac.
No guns allowed on VA Tech campus
At the time of the Luby's shooting, concealed carry was not allowed in such a business in Texas.
McDonald's was in Kalifornia. Isn't that whole friggn STATE a gun-free zone?
There were Texans with hunting rifles keeping Charles Whitman pinned down so the cops could cross the lawn to gain access to the clock tower. LEO weapons weren't able to reach that high.
Post Offices are gun-free zones
Schools are gun-free zones.
Pretty comprehensive list of where mass shootings occur most often. It's certainly not rocket science that the reason for the high body counts is the fact that the "targets" are denied the tools to prevent themselves from becoming "victims" in these surroundings!! Common sense tells us that locations such as the Kalifornia McDonald's, as well as the mall in Omaha this past winter, are chosen simply because the bad guy KNOWS that he'll be able to rack up a body count because there will be nobody there with the ability to stop him!!
This is such a "duh!" issue to me that I can't understand why some find the concept so foreign. Afterall, when was the last time you heard of a mass shooting at an NRA convention?
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As a follow up, I have been present when two shootings at police departments happened. One was in Wilson, NC, when a distraught husband came in to be interviewed regarding a domestic assault and lengthy marital problems. The subject was not searched, as he came in voluntarily. When he sat down, he handed the Detective a note saying he was going to shoot the officer. The subject came in with a suicide plan that was successful. Unloaded gun in his pocket.
The second was in Durham, NC, where a seriously mentally ill veteran (heavy drugs-no combat) opened fire on the Police parking lot with a shotgun. Used birdshot from 200' away, trying to get killed. Captured and hospitalized for years. The street lights and traffic signals sent him messages. Now in half way house.
Neither was what I call a mass shooting as we are using the term.
Mac.
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lets see, all those places just happend to be places where the shooter spent large ammounts of time and were people were having some type of prob... but when it comes to fear mongering groups like the NRA, and brady bunch( yes they are the same in many ways) facts do not mater, emotion maters.
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Okay Tab, so it's just coincidence. My point is that the shooters were so unrelentingly successful in their mission because no one else there was armed. Every instance I can recall where a potential mass shooting was halted in progress was when an armed opponent engaged the shooter in an otherwise gun free zone. And I have learned there is no such thing as coincidence.
Mac.
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Let's see. Here in FL we have malls and churches, and amusement parks etc where LARGE groups of people gather from all over the US and we have not had a mass shooting. ???
Of course it is a well known fact that FL is armed....but that couldn't have anything to do with the non-happening, could it. ::)
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Let's see. Here in FL we have malls and churches, and amusement parks etc where LARGE groups of people gather from all over the US and we have not had a mass shooting. ???
Of course it is a well known fact that FL is armed....but that couldn't have anything to do with the non-happening, could it. ::)
most states in the union have not had it happen... HI for example, and they have some of the stricktest gun laws in the country. Il is the same way...
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lets see, all those places just happend to be places where the shooter spent large ammounts of time and were people were having some type of prob... but when it comes to fear mongering groups like the NRA, and brady bunch( yes they are the same in many ways) facts do not mater, emotion maters.
On the contrary, TAB. It appears that it is you who have not brought forth any facts.
In the original article it states the following:
Georgia Center Director Bill Crowe said the hotel will immediately change the form guests receive at check-in, paperwork that lists forbidden items and activities, like smoking.
"We are going to correct that," Crowe said. "I hate that the guy got arrested. We could have given him better information when he checked in."
The guy who runs the Georgia Center freely admitted Mr. Baylis was not adequately informed as to the law that weapons were not permitted.
From the above fact you now are on a tangent challenging posters to provide facts to supporting that gun free zones having more crime. I would like to highlight that you have changed the point of the discussion from gun violence in gun free zones to one of crime in gun free zones..
Several posters have provided proof points behind their arguments that, declaring a place as a gun free zone does not guarantee that gun violence will not take place in the gun free zone. Regardless of what you think the proof points provided are, indeed, facts. Facts, by definition, cannot be argued. When you challenge a fact you take on the burden of proof to disprove the fact.
Then suddenly you make two red herring arguments to the facts that posters have provided. You have offered no proof of your own to disprove anything said by others.
1. “lets see, all those places just happend [happened] to be places where the shooter spent large ammounts [amounts] of time and were people were having some type of prob...”
I’m sorry but I don’t understand your point. You state an obvious fact it is like saying the sky is blue. Your statement does not disprove anything posted by others.
2. “but when it comes to fear mongering groups like the NRA, and brady [Brady] bunch( yes they are the same in many ways) facts do not mater, emotion maters.”
I’m not sure what you offer as facts to back-up your statement, however, you are entitled to your opinion. Above, bullit 2, you have stated a conclusion but with no facts to help the reader come to the same conclusion. I am well aware that people can look at the same set of facts and come to different conclusions. I guess you have simply come to a different conclusion. I just disagree with you.
If you want more fun facts I will point you to the Cato Institute to an article written by David Lampo entitled Gun Control: Myths and Realities.
The link is: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706
The opening paragraph says, “The number of well-publicized public shootings during the past few years, especially the tragedy at Columbine High School, has re-energized the gun control movement. As a show of strength, a coalition of gun control groups has organized a "Million Mom March" to be held in Washington, D.C. on Mother's Day, an event designed to stir up emotions rather than promote rational thought. And when one looks at the facts about gun control, it's easy to see why the anti-gun lobby relies on emotion rather than logic to make its case.”
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Good article Watchman!
There are many studies that show that gun-free zones don't work. I believe John Lott is someone that has some credibility in this area.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200503230744.asp
Regardless, gun-free zone or not, no one should be passing any law that forbids me from protecting my family at school, church, Disneyland, a restaurant or even at the shooting range.
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most states in the union have not had it happen... HI for example, and they have some of the stricktest gun laws in the country. Il is the same way...
Illinois (where I came from) is one of the most crime-ridden states in the country. Dickie Daley has successfully suppressed most of the shooting news - except for the mall that got shot up a few months back - gun free zone BTW - the shooting death rate there in Dickie's gun free city is huge, hundreds of deaths, thousands of shootings, every year. Most of them are gang-related and Dickie won't let his city be besmirched by these facts. Until he wants to decry guns then he trots out a few statistics and everything goes back to normal.
CA has many many gun laws too, never seems to stop the MS-13s or the Bloods or Crips and their offshoots from getting and using what they want. Or the mooslim who shot up the Jewish center, killed a mailman too. Among others.
TAB, you must be a glutton for punishment to continually shoot your mouth off with inane opinions which are so easily refuted with a couple of facts. Again, Twain, it is better to be thought a fool . . .
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lets see, all those places just happend to be places where the shooter spent large ammounts of time and were people were having some type of prob... but when it comes to fear mongering groups like the NRA, and brady bunch( yes they are the same in many ways) facts do not mater, emotion maters.
If all you can manage is misspelled BS why don't you shut up, or come right out and say that you are one of those sick people who likes to be abused. Does your significant other have a leather mask and whip ?
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Illinois (where I came from) is one of the most crime-ridden states in the country. Dickie Daley has successfully suppressed most of the shooting news - except for the mall that got shot up a few months back - gun free zone BTW - the shooting death rate there in Dickie's gun free city is huge, hundreds of deaths, thousands of shootings, every year. Most of them are gang-related and Dickie won't let his city be besmirched by these facts. Until he wants to decry guns then he trots out a few statistics and everything goes back to normal.
CA has many many gun laws too, never seems to stop the MS-13s or the Bloods or Crips and their offshoots from getting and using what they want. Or the mooslim who shot up the Jewish center, killed a mailman too. Among others.
TAB, you must be a glutton for punishment to continually shoot your mouth off with inane opinions which are so easily refuted with a couple of facts. Again, Twain, it is better to be thought a fool . . .
that was in reguard to mass shootings not crime in general
Guns ( or lack thier of) play no role in crime stats. Crime is a very, very complex issue.
Rather you like it or not, if we gave every one in the US a gun and holster, crime stats would change for a breif period of time, then they would go strait back to where they are now.
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Have to say, that after countless nights during my professional career in hotels across this country, I wouldn't leave a pair of socks on the bed much less a gun. Regardless of the law ... you don't leave a gun on a bed in hotel room.
My point of view? He shouldn't have been arrested for having a gun on "school" grounds. He should have been arrested for being a dumbass for leaving a firearm on the bed where someone other than you has access to it.
And yes … the hotel should inform guests PRIOR to checking in that they are a non-gun property. In a free market, people can use this information to decide whether or not they want to support that policy and patronize that establishment.
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that was in reguard to mass shootings not crime in general
Guns ( or lack thier of) play no role in crime stats. Crime is a very, very complex issue.
Rather you like it or not, if we gave every one in the US a gun and holster, crime stats would change for a breif period of time, then they would go strait back to where they are now.
Proof??
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that was in reguard to mass shootings not crime in general
Guns ( or lack thier of) play no role in crime stats. Crime is a very, very complex issue.
Rather you like it or not, if we gave every one in the US a gun and holster, crime stats would change for a breif period of time, then they would go strait back to where they are now.
There you go again making statements and not citing any evidence or facts to back up your opinions.
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There you go again making statements and not citing any evidence or facts to back up your opinions.
do you have any to disprove me?
Almost ever single study done that has compared the number of guns to crime rates has come up with that statment. only the biased studys ( both pro and against) have said other wise.
and just for haz... some one from FL.,...
and he is even blessed by the NRA... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck)
The best currently available evidence, imperfect though it is (and must always be), indicates that general gun availability has no measurable net positive effect on [crime] rates.... This is not [to] say gun availability has no effects on violence - it has many ... but these effects work in both violence-increasing and violence-decreasing directions, with the effects largely canceling out. For example, when aggressors have guns, they are (1) less likely to physically attack their victims, (2) less likely to injure the victim given an attack, but (3) more likely to kill the victim, given an injury. Further, when victims have guns, it is less likely aggressors will attack or injure them and less likely they will lose property in a robbery. [Taken together] ... the best available time series and cross-sectional studies [show that], the overall net effect of gun availability on total rates of violence is not significantly different from zero. [Emphasis in original.]1
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Oh no, not again is this gonna be another one of those threads? I took something a little different from the story:
..."according to UGA Police Lt. Lisa Boone."
I live in a University town and sometimes venture to campus. I don't know the exact statistics (that shouldn't be a problem here, huh fellas? ::)) I love and respect hard working LEO's but as a rule if it ain't a game day these folks aren't workin ' that hard, and most of the time they aren't thinkin' that hard either. Heaven forbid you draw attention to yourself on campus on a Sunday. I have been stopped on a Sunday and had no less that 6 seperate officers stop by for "back up". Now this is a campus but it isn't a large swath of area by any stretch of the imagination. I tend to agree with Ron J. He didn't need to be arrested but should have been beaten with some hose or a possibly punched through a phone book for stupidly leaving his weapon lying on the bed.
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that was in reguard to mass shootings not crime in general
Guns ( or lack thier of) play no role in crime stats. Crime is a very, very complex issue.
Rather you like it or not, if we gave every one in the US a gun and holster, crime stats would change for a breif period of time, then they would go strait back to where they are now.
Then how come Ca and Ma with strict gun laws have more crime than places with few gun laws, History does not bear you out.
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Let's see....
You state he is endorsed by the NRA yet your link is a wikiopedia entry.
You list a quote without reference or attribution and of course no link to the study.
YAWHN........
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do you have any to disprove me?
Almost ever single study done that has compared the number of guns to crime rates has come up with that statment. only the biased studys ( both pro and against) have said other wise.
and just for haz... some one from FL.,...
and he is even blessed by the NRA... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck)
The best currently available evidence, imperfect though it is (and must always be), indicates that general gun availability has no measurable net positive effect on [crime] rates.... This is not [to] say gun availability has no effects on violence - it has many ... but these effects work in both violence-increasing and violence-decreasing directions, with the effects largely canceling out. For example, when aggressors have guns, they are (1) less likely to physically attack their victims, (2) less likely to injure the victim given an attack, but (3) more likely to kill the victim, given an injury. Further, when victims have guns, it is less likely aggressors will attack or injure them and less likely they will lose property in a robbery. [Taken together] ... the best available time series and cross-sectional studies [show that], the overall net effect of gun availability on total rates of violence is not significantly different from zero. [Emphasis in original.]1
First let me point out that the link you provided does not say what you quoted. The link is about Gary Kleck.
At any rate if we examine the quote you provided we find it says that when a perpetrator have guns they are:
(1) less likely to physically attack their victims,
(2) less likely to injure the victim given an attack, but {they are}
(3) more likely to kill the victim, given an injury.
That makes sense.
On the other side if the good people are armed:
“..it is less likely aggressors [the bad guys] will attack or injure them and less likely they will lose property in a robbery.”
That seems like a perfect reason why I should carry a sidearm because at the end of the day I don’t really care what happens to the crime rate. I’m most concerned about what happens to me and my family.
If I win by being less likely to have bad things happen if attacked and the impact on the crime rate is neutral - I’m OK with that and I’m sure most people here will agree.
So I’ll take you back to the original post. What does a discussion of the crime rate and gun ownership have to do with Eric Dewayne Baylis getting arrested at a hotel owned by the University of Georgia because it was within a school safety zone?
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That was a qoute from his eval of the hart study... google him, you will see he has several published studys as well as books.
Chances are very high you will like him as he is anti gun control. The NRA and NRA-ILA site his works all the time. I'm not going to spend my time looking up his works, I've read alot of them and for the most part I agree with him. That is something I recomend you do.
He is just one of many that has made the statment that guns don't effect crime stats.
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That was a qoute from his eval of the hart study... google him, you will see he has several published studys as well as books.
Chances are very high you will like him as he is anti gun control. The NRA and NRA-ILA site his works all the time. I'm not going to spend my time looking up his works, I've read alot of them and for the most part I agree with him. That is something I recomend you do.
He is just one of many that has made the statment that guns don't effect crime stats.
Well, are we talking about mass shootings or crime after all?
Go read John Lott, conducted a multi-year study that clearly shows that guns lower crime. Not biased, based on police reports and professionally conducted surveys.
Not for the first time, I am through with this thread, the conversations on topic are good, but the unsubstantiated opinions and selective application of facts and knowledge are just really, really annoying.
Sayonara, folks, see you on other threads.
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You know what counts? The three or so times a gun kept me or my family from being robbed and/or beaten and/or murdered.
You know what else counts? The time my wife's sister was raped and murdered and did not have a gun when she was carjacked. Her decomposed body was found in a sugar cane field in West Baton Rouge Parish 2-1/2 months after the crime.
You know what else? Those statistics include people who have a gun and should not be carrying one because they don't have the will to use it or even know how to use (train...train...train) one.
Here is something else. Just because a perp has a gun and you are more likely to be killed by a perp with a gun that does not imply the gun is the reason someone is killed.
I carry a gun with me on travel. I keep it cased going in and out of the room. When I'm in the room it is out where I can use it....or have ya'll not noticed the pristine law abiding areas ajacent to airports and the hotels/motels that service airport customers...or the downtown areas?????
I've said this before, I don't give a rat's ass the consequences of defending my life or my family's life. A lot of people talk about what they are willing to sacrifice to defend their loved ones then expose themselves when they cower behind the fear of breaking a law and going to jail. That is to say, they are full of bovine scat because they are more concerned about what "the man" is going to do to them if they actually do something. Other than those who have not yet shaken the indoctrination to not act (as I once was a part of when young) and actually thought through the results of being defenseless, the rest of them are likely cowards.
What matters is survival. If you disagree with this...then I doubt you have ever faced the prospect of death at the hands of another. Or if you did, you have yet to recognize the seriousness of the encounter. The realization of a threat of impending death at the whim of society's finest provides a clarity of thought that stays with a person....everyone should experience this at least once.
Oh,and since guns don't matter...let's take them away from the police and see how that goes....I'm thinking we'd get to see just how thick society's veneer of peace and love is the first day.
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Good post Rastus.
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TAB = Nuance
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That was a qoute from his eval of the hart study... google him, you will see he has several published studys as well as books.
Chances are very high you will like him as he is anti gun control. The NRA and NRA-ILA site his works all the time. I'm not going to spend my time looking up his works, I've read alot of them and for the most part I agree with him. That is something I recomend you do.
He is just one of many that has made the statment that guns don't effect crime stats.
One more try and then I'm done with this topic.
TAB, lets assume that you are correct (I’m not conceding that however) - so what?
If I'm less likely to become a victim of crime by carrying a gun and that, as you postulate, gun ownership is neutral to crime statistics - then carrying a gun is a good thing (or at a minimum - not a bad thing).
I’ll also point out that math is involved in calculating the crime rate. It is kind of like a batting average in baseball. Towards the end of the baseball season if a batter gets a couple three hits in a row the batting average only moves a couple of thousandths of a point.
As an aside, if a crime is not committed how can it be quantified and used in a statistical model?
So when taking a national crime number (a very big number) and then factor in the impact of gun owners (a relative small number) the mathematical impact is very small.
However, the impact to the individual who is not injured or killed in an incident has an extremely large impact to the individual and the person’s loved ones.
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That was a qoute from his eval of the hart study... google him, you will see he has several published studys as well as books.
Chances are very high you will like him as he is anti gun control. The NRA and NRA-ILA site his works all the time. I'm not going to spend my time looking up his works, I've read alot of them and for the most part I agree with him. That is something I recomend you do.
He is just one of many that has made the statment that guns don't effect crime stats.
Last time I heard that phrase, it was out of the mouth of Rosie O'Donnell...... I'm just sayin'
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One more try and then I'm done with this topic.
TAB, lets assume that you are correct (I’m not conceding that however) - so what?
If I'm less likely to become a victim of crime by carrying a gun and that, as you postulate, gun ownership is neutral to crime statistics - then carrying a gun is a good thing (or at a minimum - not a bad thing).
I’ll also point out that math is involved in calculating the crime rate. It is kind of like a batting average in baseball. Towards the end of the baseball season if a batter gets a couple three hits in a row the batting average only moves a couple of thousandths of a point.
As an aside, if a crime is not committed how can it be quantified and used in a statistical model?
So when taking a national crime number (a very big number) and then factor in the impact of gun owners (a relative small number) the mathematical impact is very small.
However, the impact to the individual who is not injured or killed in an incident has an extremely large impact to the individual and the person’s loved ones.
Not to mention that there are countless crimes prevented and countless lives saved by armed citizens that go unreported.
Very few instances in which an armed citizen has to display his/her weapon in order to make a bad guy go the other direction are ever reported. They just re-holster, thank God that they didn't have to fire, and then go home to their family.
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Not to mention that there are countless crimes prevented and countless lives saved by armed citizens that go unreported.
Very few instances in which an armed citizen has to display his/her weapon in order to make a bad guy go the other direction are ever reported. They just re-holster, thank God that they didn't have to fire, and then go home to their family.
that's the part that matters.
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Rastus, and others,...
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