The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: m25operator on July 28, 2008, 09:55:44 PM
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I hope Michael will chime in on this as he is a certified Range Master.
I have been designing courses of fire for a long time.
My mix has always been tactical. I always build my stages around skill sets.....
1) Up close fast and serious.
2) Reloading drills..
3) Target recognition, and no shoots.
4) Extended range shots, with a scenario based reason. 35 - 100 yards, Ipsc, shooters hate that.
5) Low or no light drills.
6) Chuck Taylor Master drills, If you have not done these, you will be humbled.
My goal was to always stress a different skill in each stage. In the hopes it would make my contestants better handgun shooters. A lot of whiners, at my matches, but those who endured, became better shooters.
Comments, anyone???
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I've always wanted to be part of doing that. I've got some much crap ( construction scrap and the like) I know I could create something really intresting.
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Darn, I wish we lived closer to each other, I'd love to come and play. Heck, I'd even bring the beer! (For after the shootin' of course.) ;D
Swoop
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Darn, I wish we lived closer to each other, I'd love to come and play. Heck, I'd even bring the beer! (For after the shootin' of course.) ;D
Swoop
Make it fair, have M25 drink his share BEFORE the shooting ;D
I know, safety. But you need to get your advantages where you can ;D
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Those are some good, well-rounded skills to cover. They are pretty similar to our monthly matches. Occasionally, I am called on to to put together a couple of the stages, and when I haven't had any warning this will happen, I fall back on Rick Miller's scenarios in Combat Handguns Magazine. Our range is indoor, so I have to modify some scenarios to fit. Our range master throws in some Rob Leathem Drill Master stages too.
One thing that we have started doing more recently is transitions from long gun to sidearm. This past month was tactical shotgun to sidearm and 2 months ago, we did tactical carbine to sidearm in total darkness. It's amazing where people will point their flashlights when they aren't used to it. I know I get a lot out of trying and practicing these new skills.
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I can see why IPSC shooters object to 100 yard shots (I have been an IPSC/USPSA shooter for over 25 years). It seems strange to me to engage a target that far out with a handgun unless you are hunting. That target is not a very big threat to the shooter so there is no reason to engage. That said, I believe it would be fun to play at 100 yards.
Richard
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I'll give one quick 100 yard scenario.
At the lake, your at the ramp in the boat waiting for your wife to bring the Suburban and trailer from the parking lot, and you see her being approached as she approaches the truck. Could that be 100 yards, what you gonna do?? Hopefully, she's got what she needs to deal with it.
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A 100 yd shot could be a match breaker as well. most people can not hit a man sized target at 100 yds with a hand gun, older eyes may not be able to see it.
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Ouch! Got me there. That make more sense now.
Richard
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Been a few years since I did any IPSC, mostly doing Cowboy Action Shooting now, in the NCOWS flavor.
At a shoot earlier this year, we explored what you might have to do if you were injured in the fight.
Had a big cardboard tube, 6 inch diameter and 3 feet long, rigged with a sling. You put your weak arm in it and put the sling over your neck to hold it on.
Shooter had to shoot their revolver, reload it, and shoot again, all with one hand. This is pretty tough with a single-action revolver!
Also took a couple of pairs of cheap safety glasses, and painted over one side of each one. Shooter had to wear the one that covered their dominate eye, and shoot both rifle and pistol.
Grizzle Bear
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Surprising what a person that knows his handgun can do with it. When we got a new batch of recruits, we would show of what a 2 1/2" Model 19 could do. Could constantly hit a man size target at 75 to 100 yards. Our course of fire included man size target at 50 yards with same gun. Not hard to put all rounds in center of mass. This is when the revolver was the handgun used by just about everybody. Sure most good autos can do the same now. We shot PPC style courses.
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You know of all the drills the most important one I think would be the Cirillo Drill. I just think that drill is closest to what most will face in this day and age of walking into a store or being somewhere when an attack goes down. But that range sounds awesome. i was just throwing out my favorite and what a range I disign would have to have.
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You guys have given some great comments, I hope no one took my long distance stage to mean I did it every match, I would always throw in an accuracy stage, now 100 yards is an accuracy stage, but so is a head shot at 20-25 yards with a no shoot right beside it, or half a head shot, due to hard cover etc.... The idea is to have faced this kind of shot before and know your limitations and strengths, but not confronted with something you have no idea about. If you can't make a head shot at 25, is it your equipment, or marksmanship or both? Better to find out on the square range, than while your filling your tank and something go's down across the street at the caddy corner 7-11, 50-60 yards easy on a 4 lane street intersection.
I also ran shotgun matches, and my instructor showed us about holding off on targets due to issue ammunition maybe not patterning well in the issue shotgun. This really opened my eyes as to what a shotgun is capable of. He showed us patterns using issue buckshot of 3 of the top makers, in a cylinder bore 18" barrel, at 15 yards, 18 is the normal greatest range, you can guarantee all shots will impact the torso. He demonstrated that you could do headshots, with a no shoot next to the shoot target, and if you had less than desirable ammo, Hold off to the side and impact 2-3 pellets into the shoot target without hitting the no shoot.
So, I incorporated that into my shotgun matches, and again, lots of gnashing of teeth, but I guarantee, my competitors are better prepared than others, and know more about what their shotgun will do at a given distance.
My matches have always been built around the most common denominator, not the least or the best. Shotgun stages are built around 5 shot guns, because that's what our local constabulary carry, and most of the home owners for SD. The stage might be 20 rounds, but it will dosed out in 5 shot increments, and there will be mandatory reloads, regardless of how many rounds
your gun holds. It's about building skill sets, not an equipment race.
Something I've always been famous for, is I like a disaster factor in my stages, a stage designed so if you shoot perfect your cool, but if you need extra rounds it's gonna cost ya, or no shoots that swing in front of shoot targets, or reaction targets that only give you a very short time to engage them, before they disappear.
More comments are welcome.
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M25- That sounds awesome. I think what you have is first class all the way. A long distance accuracy shot is a good idea too. So no I personally didnt take that as what you want to do all the time. I think that some people never practice long distance cause they dont think they need it, but you never know. Also it gives you confidence. I say to yourself I just a 75 yard shot so I know I can nail a 15.
The shotgun idea of knowing when to hold on pulling the trigger is a good idea, and a stage I would like to see and shoot myself to test myself. If what you have in your hand is a shot gun and you have hostage in front of you and a bad guy you gotta know what your pattern is and where is going to hit and who.
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Great thread. You guys have given me some ideas. I'm the IDPA match director at my club, and am always looking for fresh ideas. A lot of the stages I come up with are things I see in the news...or life experiences.
A couple of days ago, my wife sent me to the gas station to get drinks for everyone. As I walked out the door with both hands full of fountain drinks...I was approached by an unsavory looking character. The first thought that went through my mind was "could I get to my gun if needed". This guy claimed to be from out-of-town and was looking for directions...and our conversation ended uneventful. But, I had already played out 4 or 5 scenarios in my head and how I would react to each. Needless to say, guess what one of the stages is going to be at my next match (start position with drink cups in both hand...).
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you know one thing I've always wanted to see at a match( and it would not be that hard to rig up) is moving cover. We have moving targets, why not cover?
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you know one thing I've always wanted to see at a match( and it would not be that hard to rig up) is moving cover. We have moving targets, why not cover?
Like moving vehicles on a street or parking lot ? Also, a target that pops up for a very short time INCHES away from the shooter, like an assailant coming out of an alley or doorway as you walk on the side walk or hallway
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Like moving vehicles on a street or parking lot ?
thats exactly what I was thinking. you know a cardboard cut out in the generic shape of a car.( smaller of corse, but the general shape)
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Your stages or courses are good. I like the way you have built them around personal defense scenarios. As for long shots, 50 yards is the longest practical distance for a pistol, but there is nothing wrong with seeing what can be done out to 100. Keep up the good work. Your club is fortunate to have you contributing to its matches.
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Your stages or courses are good. I like the way you have built them around personal defense scenarios. As for long shots, 50 yards is the longest practical distance for a pistol, but there is nothing wrong with seeing what can be done out to 100. Keep up the good work. Your club is fortunate to have you contributing to its matches.
Watch the D.R. Middlebrook Fistfire video
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I run a pit at my club for our monthly IDPA matches. Last month I had a stage you shot all weak hand. It started with the gun on the ground loaded with the safe on( if it has one). The idea was that you saw the bad guy's coming, but too late. While drawing your weapon you were hit in the strong arm, and it ended up on the ground in front of you. You had too pick up the gun weak hand turn off the safe and engage two targets on the move to cover. Then engage three more using cover. Short stage but very challenging. Lots of (That was harder then it looks!) comments.
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If you are a course designer for defensive or tactical matches, something I was taught, to set your watch alarm to go off at odd intervals, and when it went off just look around you and say " what if it happened here and now".
Here's a drill that so far I'm the only I know that has run, very simple, it's an exposure drill.
5 - 10 shoot targets, no shoots as you think, some pepper poppers.
Shooter is behind hard cover with rifle or pistol out and loaded, set the timer for 2 seconds par time, when the buzzer go's off the shooter has 2 seconds to engage as many targets as possible and get back behind cover, run the shooter again and again until all targets are addressed, but each run should be from a different position behind the cover, high. low, middle etc... I gave the shooter 1/2 second over the 2 seconds to respond to the buzzer with no penalty, every shot over 2.5 seconds, added 5 seconds. The cumulative time is used divided into the score.
The object of course is to not get used to exposing yourself to return fire, for very long at all.
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I run a pit at my club for our monthly IDPA matches. Last month I had a stage you shot all weak hand. It started with the gun on the ground loaded with the safe on( if it has one). The idea was that you saw the bad guy's coming, but too late. While drawing your weapon you were hit in the strong arm, and it ended up on the ground in front of you. You had too pick up the gun weak hand turn off the safe and engage two targets on the move to cover. Then engage three more using cover. Short stage but very challenging. Lots of (That was harder then it looks!) comments.
I love it! We do a lot of one-hand/weak-hand. This could be rough for the single stack guys. How many shots to each target? Any failure drills in there? Most of our shooter are hampered by the 10 round limit in CA, so I would probably change the number of goblins/zombies. We could do a one-hand reload behind cover, but to stay safe with the large number of beginners we have, I'd keep it to one or 2. FBI stats show that in average attacks on civilians, there is only one attacker. I could make adjust this so that the initial engage is 2 to the body - go to cover - failure to stop drill. What do you think? I keep in mind that the folks that come out to the matches want to shoot a lot of bullets, so I would probably add a couple of goblins.
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I love it! We do a lot of one-hand/weak-hand. This could be rough for the single stack guys. How many shots to each target? Any failure drills in there? Most of our shooter are hampered by the 10 round limit in CA, so I would probably change the number of goblins/zombies. We could do a one-hand reload behind cover, but to stay safe with the large number of beginners we have, I'd keep it to one or 2. FBI stats show that in average attacks on civilians, there is only one attacker. I could make adjust this so that the initial engage is 2 to the body - go to cover - failure to stop drill. What do you think? I keep in mind that the folks that come out to the matches want to shoot a lot of bullets, so I would probably add a couple of goblins.
Fuzdaddy, I made the stage just neutralize the target In IDPA that means at least one shot in the down 0 or down 1 zone. You could finish the stage with only five rounds if you shot in those zones. The only thing is, I covered the targets with T-Shirts. You didn't know for sure until the targets were scored. Needless to say, there were some sad faces when the shirts were pulled up and some FTN's were handed out.
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Fuzdaddy, I made the stage just neutralize the target In IDPA that means at least one shot in the down 0 or down 1 zone. You could finish the stage with only five rounds if you shot in those zones. The only thing is, I covered the targets with T-Shirts. You didn't know for sure until the targets were scored. Needless to say, there were some sad faces when the shirts were pulled up and some FTN's were handed out.
Dude...you're an evil genius. 8)
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Awesome!
Hey CZ, Do you know how to adjust a CZ 75B, so that magazines drop free?
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There is a leaf spring just in front of the hammer spring, remove it and they will drop free.
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Surprising what a person that knows his handgun can do with it. When we got a new batch of recruits, we would show of what a 2 1/2" Model 19 could do. Could constantly hit a man size target at 75 to 100 yards. Our course of fire included man size target at 50 yards with same gun. Not hard to put all rounds in center of mass. This is when the revolver was the handgun used by just about everybody. Sure most good autos can do the same now. We shot PPC style courses.
YES! A Model 19 with 2 1/2 barrel and factory ammo! My weapon of choice at the IDPA matches in my neck of the woods. And almost ALWAYS the only one!
I am sorry I missed this thread as I have been preoccupied with Forest Fires and Deadly Force in other Forums. After a few years I finally backed off on IDPA in exasperation because it had become 90 percent malarky and 10 percent IDPA.
I have always been a fan of Keep It Simple Sailor course design because that is what happens in the real world more often than not.
Nowadays I practice on the back forty with some simple designs of my own.
You can make excellent cheap reactive targets from an ordinary paper grocery bag, castaway shirts and balloons attached to a string.
Put a shirt on an upside down bag (with the bottom facing the sky), put a partially inflated balloon inside the bag with the string threaded through the shirt neck and attached to a clothesline.
Your hit zone will be the size of the inflated balloon inside the bag. When you break the balloon the bag and shirt will drop.
Anything else is a miss. Since the balloon is center of mass any hit sufficient to break it from any distance of your choice is a true shot. If it does not drop, reload and keep shooting.
Great El Presidente stage with three or more targets.
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Man, JohnJacobH, does that bring back memories, I ran a stage where we put balloons on the back side of the target, with string and zip ties to keep the balloons in place, vertically centered but guess where they are, tactically you should just stitch it up the front from bottom to top and you will get it, some competitors ran out of ammo. I was not very popular that day.
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Dude...you're an evil genius. 8)
Thank's CZShooter! I've been called alot worse! I like to keep my stages intersesting. Not the same old two shots and then move on. I had a stage where you started out with your gun with only five rounds in it. There were six shoots and three no shoots. After you shot the five rounds in your gun, you set your gun down (simulated a major gun malfuction) you had to retreve a wheel gun from a desk drawer with loose ammo rolling around. Load it and finish the stage with it. "You know some people have ten thumbs when the clock is running!" Lots of fun!!!
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Man, JohnJacobH, does that bring back memories, I ran a stage where we put balloons on the back side of the target, with string and zip ties to keep the balloons in place, vertically centered but guess where they are, tactically you should just stitch it up the front from bottom to top and you will get it, some competitors ran out of ammo. I was not very popular that day.
The devil is in the details. With the grocery bag arrangement the balloon is essentially self centered inside the bag. It is exactly where it needs to be, you just have to shoot straight to hit it.
I did not mention it, but the bag bottom (top surface) has a 1-2 inch hole where the tied end of the balloon and string go through. It
must be big enough for the collapsed balloon to pass through when hit.
It is an extremely cheap and effective target. You can get center of mass hits and still miss the balloon.
It goes without saying these are round party balloons filled with air, not helium or specialty animal shaping type balloons.