The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: SwoopSJ on July 31, 2008, 02:40:42 PM
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I realize this is like asking which is the best truck, beer, or potato chip, as brand loyalty influences a lot of our opinions. Also, this question has probably been asked on this forum a thousand times, but I want a new 1911 style handgun. So far, in my gun collection, I have only "plastic" guns as far as auto loaders go. I would prefer to keep the cost under $1500, if possible. Any extravegant upgrades I prefer to have done to my specification anyway. I will probably stick with my polymer frames and revolvers for carry duty, so this piece will mostly be for range work. With this in mind, accuracy and ease of customization (mil. spec.?, parts availability / fit... could eventually become comp. gun) are of much more importance than compact size. Any help from you gun "gurus", as always, is much appreciated.
Swoop
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I have 3 Para .45s. 2 SA and 1 LDA. All 3 are double-wides. I don't know anyone who's shot an LDA and not been impressed. The Limited models are semi-custom, competition ready, and under $1,300 list price. Actual prices will be closer to $1,000.
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Under that price is way do able, I suggest a single stack Government model. Several for under 700.00 and you can customize it and keep making it better. Get the original design, if you like the system go on from there and add to your arsenal. (Armscore) RIA. hint , hint ::)
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Look for an older Colt Series 70 not the newer version. Add the mods you want.
Richard
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As a 1911 fanatic friend says: "The 1911 is an instrument, everything else is just a tool." The more I shoot them the more I come around to his way of thinking.
And there are so may derivations to collect/choose from. So many guns - so little money.
I have 1911s from S&W and Kimber. I have 1911 derivations (read 9mm) from Para, Springfield and Kimber. Asking me which one I prefer is like asking a parent which child he prefers. The 9mms see more range time just out of pure economics. They are all great shooters and worst problem I have encountered with any of them was a problem with one magazine that would cause slide to not lock back after the last round.
If you are looking for a range/home defense weapon go with a government model. You can get an excellent weapon well with your specified budget and have money left over for some custom grips and leather.
Let us know what you finally decide. Pictures would be even nicer.
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I would prefer to keep the cost under $1500, if possible. Any extravegant upgrades I prefer to have done to my specification anyway.
Hello Swoop. for spec 1911's for that range of price, thereabouts, I have one suggestion,..
http://www.lesbaer.com/1911s.html
"The quiet company,..." Of 1911's, ;D ;D
Hope you find "the one".
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I have 3 Para .45s. 2 SA and 1 LDA. All 3 are double-wides. I don't know anyone who's shot an LDA and not been impressed. The Limited models are semi-custom, competition ready, and under $1,300 list price. Actual prices will be closer to $1,000.
i thought that I had already had posted a message.. I have two para's with a third on it's way. 1 SA and it will be two LDA's I have liked the para's very much shoot them every chance I can. I don't think you would be disapointed if this is yous choice. I also have a KImber which is a good gun also but carry the para LDA. watchman. All of my 1911 were in the $800.00 or below range.
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Wow! What a snake pit! I'm almost afraid to answer this...oh, what the heck!
1) A single-stack steel-framed full size Para, maybe the SSP ($900). My choice would be an LDA, but if you don't have a traditional SA, that's where you should start.
2) An S&W GUNSITE Edition .45, Commander length with a Scandium frame ($1280).
3) An STI Spartan ($660), no frills and better than it has any right to be, or a Taurus PT1911 ($711)...teh advantage of buying low is that you've got a few bucks to get them just like you want them.
Michael B
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Bare bones, no bells or whistles around $400 dollars, basically the exact same pistol that was issued to the US armed forces. Rock Island Armory (made by Armscor ) distributed by www.sarco.com. This is the first 1911 that I have been willing to trust with my life. I have carried it EVERY day for the last year and a half, I have about 1500 rounds through ball ammo and JHP's 0 problems, every time I have pulled the trigger it has gone BOOM, and I can hold a fist size group at 25 yards. They also offer a wide body model, with your budget you could have both.
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If you want to spend 1500... les bear is where you want to go.
If you want to spend less then a grand, get yourself a colt.
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I've got a Sig Revolution. very nice upgrade trigger, Nitron finish, night sights. It cost about 785.
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I picked up a Kimber Custom II at a gun show for $800 last November. It's my first 1911 and I am hooked. This is one purchase that I see feeding off of itself.
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I think that, for the money, it is pretty hard to beat any 1911 that Dan Wesson makes. They are made entirely in the US, and he uses some essential parts from the best custom makers. A lot from Dan Brown. The only thing I wanted to replace was the magazine, and at $30 a pop, for a Wilson Combat, that's not a very expensive improvement. Why can't anyone but Wilson make a totally reliable 1911 magazine? The only additional improvement I can even think of for this pistol is to loan it to a better shooter.
I chose a bobtail Commander for ease of carry, but the full size is a dream, and probably my next handgun purchase.
Later,
Bill (k39noodles)
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Ditto on the Rock Island 1911.
I had one last year and upon close inspection I found it to be a well built pistol.
I gave it to my son and it turned in splendid performance for him also.
My heart still beats for my Colts, though.
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Ditto on the Rock Island 1911.
I had one last year and upon close inspection I found it to be a well built pistol.
I gave it to my son and it turned in splendid performance for him also.
My heart still beats for my Colts, though.
Some where (on a previous thread here I think) I heard that they were built on machines buoght from Colt under the supervision of a former Colt Engineer, so basically the same pistol for 1/2 the money. With the exception that it out shoots any of the Colts (civilian or military) that I have shot.
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+ 1 on the Rock Island guns. I have one and it is CRAZY better than the $389 MSRP I paid...
Michael B
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<------------------------------------------ ahem
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Thank you, to everyone, for the great suggestions. This gives me a good starting point before heading to the gun shop to test the "feel" factor. I always like to hear from people who actually own and shoot the guns in question, rather than take a dealers word for it. (The more expensive brand or model is always much better! ::)) Also, I had never heard of Armscor / Rock Island before, so at that price and with the recommendations of Mr. Bane and good ol' tombogan, I may have to buy two. ;D Thanks again, and if anyone has more suggestions (pistols or modifications), please help a 1911 newbie out.
Swoop
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Thank you, to everyone, for the great suggestions. This gives me a good starting point before heading to the gun shop to test the "feel" factor. I always like to hear from people who actually own and shoot the guns in question, rather than take a dealers word for it. (The more expensive brand or model is always much better! ::)) Also, I had never heard of Armscor / Rock Island before, so at that price and with the recommendations of Mr. Bane and good ol' tombogan, I may have to buy two. ;D Thanks again, and if anyone has more suggestions (pistols or modifications), please help a 1911 newbie out.
Swoop
Two modifications I made to mine, I replaced the smooth wood grips with a pair of rubber grips from Hogue, and I put a drop of yellow fingernail polish on the front sight.
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http://www.sarcoinc.com/rockislands-new.html (http://www.sarcoinc.com/rockislands-new.html)
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Thanks for the link. I didn't even know that RIA made a compact 1911.
With a little polish and tuning, it would make a heck of a carry gun.
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I'm glad you RIA guys have had good luck with yours, I've only had experience with one, about 4 years ago, a friend bought one at the gun show, where one of our big distributors were selling them for 250.00 bucks, hard to go wrong at that price. He shot it and it did work with ball, but he was hitting 7 o'clock on the targets pretty low. He brought it to me for a trigger job, as the trigger was somewhere around 8 pounds, had to use my fish scale to measure it. The initial trigger job didn't work very well, normal procedures produced a 3 lb trigger that would not release after the slide was cycled, I reworked the disconnector, and went over my work twice. After that I installed a used Colt sear, disconnector and commander hammer, that I had worked over previously and voila, 3 lbs. At the range the pistol ran fine, and now shot to point of aim, due mainly to the lighter pull.
I think Para, S&W, Springfield Armory, Kimber and Sig all have great pistols in that price range with a lot of features. I do favor the Para LDA, what a usable trigger. My advice is to pick up one of these pistols for 700-800 bucks or less, and then you can afford magazines, a holster and some ammo to practice with. Get one with high visibility sights, night sights even, a beavertail grip safety, and go from there. The grip safety is not a deal breaker as they can be had pretty cheap, and even gunsmith installation is not or should not be very high. I charge 25 bucks labor for one I have to round the frame horns on.
Side note, Alan Smith of S&A magwells, grip safeties and such, taught me a good trick when fitting grip safeties, you put a notch in the top of the arm that presses the spring for the safety, so it clears the hammer pin, then you don't have to lower the mainspring housing to remove it. Cool tip.
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I think that, for the money, it is pretty hard to beat any 1911 that Dan Wesson makes. They are made entirely in the US, and he uses some essential parts from the best custom makers. A lot from Dan Brown. The only thing I wanted to replace was the magazine, and at $30 a pop, for a Wilson Combat, that's not a very expensive improvement. Why can't anyone but Wilson make a totally reliable 1911 magazine? The only additional improvement I can even think of for this pistol is to loan it to a better shooter.
I chose a bobtail Commander for ease of carry, but the full size is a dream, and probably my next handgun purchase.
Later,
Bill (k39noodles)
Novak, I have 1 that came with my Rock Island, and 4 more I bought for $14.99/each
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I think Para, S&W, Springfield Armory, Kimber and Sig all have great pistols in that price range with a lot of features. I do favor the Para LDA, what a usable trigger. My advice is to pick up one of these pistols
I still haven't made it to my local gun shop... alas, so little time. However, I have been researching these recommendations on the company web sites, as well as GA. Since the 1911s are more reasonably priced than I had initially thought, I will probably buy one that I can wreak havoc with straight out of the box (Para LDA high cap. does seem pretty sweet) and hopefully also purchase (if not now, soon) a "cheapo" that I can play with (RIA, or maybe a Spartan). Thanks for the tip, also m25operator. All are greatly appreciated.
Swoop
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If you want to try a Rock Island, I would pass on the G.I. model unless you WANT a replica of the old military pistols. You'd want to replace the sights, put on a beavertail (the grip safety tang on the RIA is so short that it may give you "hammer bite" - technically speaking it's "grip safety bite" but it feels the same.). The front sight is staked some replacement sights are limited.
They sell a tactical model that has better sights, a lowered port and a nice beavertail. They also sell a match model that is hand fitted.
IIRC, the STI Spartan is made by the same factory that makes the RIA. The difference is that STI sends their own internal parts to the factory for installation in their pistols.
I have a G.I. model and love it. I put Crimson Trace grips on it, painted the front sight blade white and don't mind the tiny sights as much as I thought I would. The other models don't cost that much more that the G.I. model.It's my carry pistol
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For $1500, It's pretty open territory. I'd probably get a Springfield or Kimber for that kind of money.
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I currently have a para ssp gun rights edition and it has feeding issues. any help would be greatly appreciated.
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I currently have a para ssp gun rights edition and it has feeding issues. any help would be greatly appreciated.
Need more info on the feeding issues.
What is it doing or not doing? Failing to feed? Bullet nose hitting/hanging om ramp? Cartridge standing sraight up instead of feeding?
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nose hitting ramp and cartridge standing straight up. I purchased this pistol three weeks ago. I took it back to the store I bought it from and they polished the feed ramp this did not help so they told me that they would have to send it back to para.
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If you haven't already, try different mags. Borrow Wilson or Chip McCormick.
Richard
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I tried wilson, did not help. It was hanging on ball and hollow points but not consistently. Its almost like the slide was dragging and causeing the feeding problems. Well like I said para has the pistol now, maybe i will get it back in a couple of months.
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The Taurus 1911 for the money is great.... Add a trigger job and you will have a great shooting 1911 for th $$
But if your going to try and carry a 1911.. my choice is the Para Slim Hog.
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I tried wilson, did not help. It was hanging on ball and hollow points but not consistently. Its almost like the slide was dragging and causeing the feeding problems. Well like I said para has the pistol now, maybe i will get it back in a couple of months.
If it's not the magazines themselves, it could be the mag catch.
A friend had this problem with with a Llama 1911 once and we tore our hair out trying to adjust the magazines because 99% of the time that is the culprit.
The problem was the mag catch/release geometry. The catch was not allowing the magazines to sit far enough up into the frame to allow proper feeding. It only takes a few thousands of an inch to gum up the works on these things. He eventually traded it in on a Colt. If this is the problem, Para should make it right because it ain't an easy fix for the home gunsmith to weld cut and grind it to make it work.
Anyway, good luck, and I hope you get it back soon.
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Thanks, me too.
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I agree with TAB on a Colt or one from Les Baer. I carry a Colt that I have had since around 1978 or 79. Slide was worked over by J Hoag from Los Angeles, he was real big on Colts then. Frame was worked on by King Gun Works. Shoot anything I put thru it and extremely accurate. Not familiar with the other 1911's so can't comment. Because it sits very well high & tight, it is very comfortable and carry choice when out in the desert riding my horse. Does wonders on coyotes.
I use a home made holster that I made sometime in the 1980's.
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Finally made it to the gun shop a couple of days ago. Well, I went in pretty much set on buying a Para... until the salesman showed me a Taurus 1911. All I can say is, WOW! They had a sticker price of $699 on the stainless model, which is a little high compared to GA, but even at that price it seems to be a lot of gun for the money. It's packed with features and the trigger left me drooling on myself, even when compared with the Paras and Colts. I managed to leave without immediately purchasing, just to give myself a little time to calm down. (I try not to be an impulse shopper.) I am returning to the scene of the crime tomorrow, hopefully, and after fondeling the Kimbers one more time, I hope to purchase my new toy. I hope to post a range report within a few days along with some gun porn, if possible. (Tried to post pics of last purchase unsuccesfully. :() Thanks again to everyone who took time to help a brotha' out.
Swoop
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Like most people, I've heard and read good and bad about Taurus, but they DO have a lot of semi-custom features/upgrades.
I think my next .45 auto is going to be a .460 Rowland from Clark Custom guns, with an extra barrel and recoil spring for .45 ACP. I need to trade in either my 10-shot or 12-shot Para anyway. Not much difference between the compact and sub-compact except the triggers, SA and LDA.
I've mostly had good luck with my Paras for 20 years and the new ones have a lifetime warranty. The only problem I had was with my 12-shot compact LDA. They replaced the whole Officer's Model type of recoil system with a Warthog type. Now it has two recoil springs instead of one, to increase the dwell time I guess. They polished up a few things too. I don't remember if I've even shot it since then but it worked when they test-fired it.
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Need more info on the feeding issues.
What is it doing or not doing? Failing to feed? Bullet nose hitting/hanging om ramp? Cartridge standing sraight up instead of feeding?
I got my pistol back yesterday I haven't had time to go to the range, maybe today.
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The lifetime warranty comes in handy for those rare times anyone needs it.
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Kimber .. Kimber ... Kimber ...
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Kimber .. Kimber ... Kimber ...
I saw a guy shooting his Kimber .22 and it jammed... jammmed... jammed... and wouldn't fire all the time. I hope the .45s work better than that.
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My Kimber BP Ten II works. 8)
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I hear a lot of good things about Kimbers too but that was the only one I actually saw being shot. Most of them seem to be really good.
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I finally got to the range, 250 rounds no jams no misfeeds.
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I finally got to the range, 250 rounds no jams no misfeeds.
Big Time Congrats.
Glad to hear it ran for you.....what kind of accuracy did it have (along with any other range info)?.... :D
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Man, I still haven't taken the plunge and made a purchase. I'm suffering from paralysis by analysis. I've checked out the Colts, Paras, Tauruses, Kimbers... and I just can't make up my mind. ??? Unfortunately there are no ranges in my area that allow you to rent guns, so I'm currently in the process of trying to locate examples from each company which I can borrow for a little pre purchase testing. I initially loved the Taurus, but it seems everyone (atleast around here) keeps steering me toward either the Colts or Kimbers. I normally don't agonize over gun purchases like this, but with the threat of BHO getting elected, I have a long list of purchases to make before January. This is probably the only 1911 I will buy, so I just want one that I will be satisfied with. I promise, however, to give a full report after I make the purchase and get to the range. :)
Swoop
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Man, I still haven't taken the plunge and made a purchase. I'm suffering from paralysis by analysis. I've checked out the Colts, Paras, Tauruses, Kimbers... and I just can't make up my mind. ??? Unfortunately there are no ranges in my area that allow you to rent guns, so I'm currently in the process of trying to locate examples from each company which I can borrow for a little pre purchase testing. I initially loved the Taurus, but it seems everyone (atleast around here) keeps steering me toward either the Colts or Kimbers. I normally don't agonize over gun purchases like this, but with the threat of BHO getting elected, I have a long list of purchases to make before January. This is probably the only 1911 I will buy, so I just want one that I will be satisfied with. I promise, however, to give a full report after I make the purchase and get to the range. :)
Swoop
Taurus has all the bells and whistles for half the price of the others, Rock Island is a solid basic 1911 (my preference ) in the $400 $500 range (Leaves more $ for other stuff like ammo ) but I don't believe B Ho has a chance, not even all the kool aid drinking socialist back him.
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If you shoot a KIMBER it's GAME OVER............................
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Any one ever hear of "American Classic"? They list them in SOG for 329. Mil spec .45
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Man, I still haven't taken the plunge and made a purchase. I'm suffering from paralysis by analysis. I've checked out the Colts, Paras, Tauruses, Kimbers... and I just can't make up my mind. ??? Unfortunately there are no ranges in my area that allow you to rent guns, so I'm currently in the process of trying to locate examples from each company which I can borrow for a little pre purchase testing. I initially loved the Taurus, but it seems everyone (atleast around here) keeps steering me toward either the Colts or Kimbers. I normally don't agonize over gun purchases like this, but with the threat of BHO getting elected, I have a long list of purchases to make before January. This is probably the only 1911 I will buy, so I just want one that I will be satisfied with. I promise, however, to give a full report after I make the purchase and get to the range. :)
Swoop
Swoop ...
Confused about 1911 handguns in 45ACP? You’ve read countless reviews that are both positive and negative … on one page people are swearing and when you flip the page someone else is singing the praise for the exact same pistol? Distraught over the time you spent searching? Don’t want to have cognitive dissonance or what some would call “buyer’s remorse” over the chance of making a “wrong choice”?
My friend (a John McCain line), it’s your lucky day. Dr. Ron has the prescription for you and it will liberate you and set you free to the wonderful world of the 45ACP.
Here it is … they are all good. Kimbers. RIA. SA. Tauras. Colt. Paras. Dan Wesson. They are all good. You can’t go wrong! You can buy a “race gun” or you can buy one in “plain wrap” and dress it yourself. Above all, buy some good magazines (I like and use those from Wilson, Pachmayr, & McCormick) and some ammo and head to the range.
Sure. You might need to have your 1911 ramped and throated so it will feed to your expectations. You may even need to have a new trigger, safety and sights too. But that’s all good! See, if you didn’t need or want all of that which can come with a 1911 … you would have bought a SIG P220. ;D
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Dr. Ron, you have a great bedside manner, and sound advice. For me my Kimber Ultra was the "small" .45 I wanted.
I also just have a thing for a full-size .45. This one is my "tweaked" out S&W.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/The45.jpg)
She's a big girl to conceal unless I'm wearing a jacket or coat, but when I hold her,,,,,,,nevermind. ;)
Nothing wrong with your "agonizing". sometimes, the right one will find you.
Good Luck, and post some pics. Us gun porn guys just like that kind of thing.
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Dr. Ron has the prescription for you and it will liberate you and set you free to the wonderful world of the 45ACP.
Your a poet and don't know it, doc. :D Seriously though, thanks for the sage advice. You hit the nail right on the head as far as the differing opinions about the manufacturers. Many here have attempted to enlighten me, but on this particular purchase I feel kind of like the air head cheerleader torn between nail polishes. The gun shop that I frequent will be closed for the holiday, so I guess I have one more day to obsess before I am forced to make a decision. However, I guess, if all else fails, I have the "einnie, meinnie, miennie, moe" method to fall back on. ;D
Swoop
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TW ... NICE S&W! I forgot to mention them in my mini-rant. Great gun. I usually get the "jones" for anothe 1911 and would like to get your "girl's" twin sister!
Swoop ... Have fun with the search for your next pistol. It sounds like you are doing proper due dilligence and you will make the right choice. Once you buy one ... you will want another ... and another ... and ...
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If you get 1911 fever bad enough you might end up with a 3", 3.5", 4.25", 5", and 6", or a blue one, a stainless one, a chome one, a Colt, a Kimber, a Para, laser grips on one, a flashlight on another, etc. My limited income won't allow me to get everything I want but I had the money I would buy 100 more guns and you can bet a few of them would be 1911s.
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Your a poet and don't know it, doc. :D Seriously though, thanks for the sage advice. You hit the nail right on the head as far as the differing opinions about the manufacturers. Many here have attempted to enlighten me, but on this particular purchase I feel kind of like the air head cheerleader torn between nail polishes. The gun shop that I frequent will be closed for the holiday, so I guess I have one more day to obsess before I am forced to make a decision. However, I guess, if all else fails, I have the "einnie, meinnie, miennie, moe" method to fall back on. ;D
Swoop
Don't you mean "eenie, meenie, mynee, and Fred"......
"Why not Moe?"..you ask.....
Well, Mamma didn't want no Moe.... ;D
I make my self sick sometimes...I swear..... :o
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Way toooooooo much time on your hands!
Richard
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Way toooooooo much time on your hands!
Richard
But FUNNY any way. ;D
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Yes...way too much time and not nearly enough ammo.......but I'm working on that....too.
;D
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Yes...way too much time and not nearly enough ammo.......but I'm working on that....too.
;D
You may have discovered the true meaning to life! ;D
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:) I got a Taurus 1911 last spring and it ROCKS. I had to change out the grips though. Hey, it's a 1911, you've got to customize it. I think that's a law somewhere.
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I own ONE pistol that I haven't customized - my 75th anniversary PPK. Everything else gets new grips or sights something else to suit me. Most brands are good as is but need a personal touch to make them your own.
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:) I got a Taurus 1911 last spring and it ROCKS. I had to change out the grips though. Hey, it's a 1911, you've got to customize it. I think that's a law somewhere.
YES...It's a LAW....... ;D
Really nice grips. What brand and where did you get them? I've been thinking of a set for my Springfield.
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Sportsman's Guide. I had to "modify" slightly so the screws would fit.
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I got on this thread late, but here's my 2 pennies worth: I've got three Kimbers (had 4, but that's a long story), an Ed Brown Kobra Carry (4 1/4"), a detonics CombatMaster, and 2 Les Baers. I swapped out all the internal parts in the Kimbers for Ed Brown parts after way to many failures (including a thumb safety that broke off right at the pin); I carry either the Detonics or the Ed Brown--absolutely no complaints; and I shoot IDPA with the Baers--after seven or eight thousand rounds in each of the Baers my only comment is absolute, unqualified reliability--round nose, semi-wadcutters flat nose, handloads of factory, they haven't so much as hiccupped.
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You may have discovered the true meaning to life! ;D
"There is an old saying. There are only 2 times when you have too much ammo.
1. When you are drowning
2. When you are on fire
Other than that, stock up...... ::)
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"There is an old saying. There are only 2 times when you have too much ammo.
1. When you are drowning
2. When you are on fire
Other than that, stock up...... ::)
;D That's a good one. If my footlocker ever catches on fire I'm screwed. The bottom is packed with ammo and the top is full of knives. :o That's just shrapnel just waiting to happen.
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;D That's a good one. If my footlocker ever catches on fire I'm screwed. The bottom is packed with ammo and the top is full of knives. :o That's just shrapnel just waiting to happen.
Now THAT will make one hell of a Claymore Mine....."Point Towards Enemy"............ ;D