The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Ksail101 on August 03, 2008, 08:56:21 AM
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I wrote this as a reply to a topic lastweek and I dont know how many people read it, so I wanted to put it up here as a topic and get some of your thoughts about what I wrote. I know that the big arguement that will be brought up is that the military has taught PVT's how to use the 1911 for years. I just want to respond to this by saying yes the have "Taught" how to use the 191. They take a week of waking up at 0600 and pound and drill how to use this pistol in to your head till 1700. Everyday. So you are not just picking it up and walking to a range shooting a few rounds out of it and saying that it is good enough to carry. So here is my response to the question of what is a good 1911 to carry.-
I will probably be struck by lightening for saying this, but if you dont know what 1911 is good for ccw, than I suggest carrying something besides it. Glock, XD, M&P. This is no diss on you, but 1911's are heavy, more uncomfortable, (realize I put more, nothing is comfortable.) and really unless you are really familiar with a 1911 and shot one a million times it is not the best for someone who isn't a gun expert. It is my opinion that like a J-frame S&W that a 1911 should only be carried for ccw by people who shoot alot and shoot 1911's.
But look this is all my opinion. 1911 is the all time greatest gun, but it is a gun that shout be respected. It is not a dummy gun. And most times, unlike a Glock\polymer wondergun, the 1911 doesnt run better the more you beat it up. You need to maintain it, understand it, love it.
This is all for ccw only. If you want one to shoot and have fun with then great buy a 100 of them, but you must remember you are trusting your life to this if you will be carrying it. I would never buy a backhoe to dig a hole cause I cant operate one, but i will buy a shovel.
So I would love to hear your thoughts.
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I wrote this as a reply to a topic lastweek and I dont know how many people read it, so I wanted to put it up here as a topic and get some of your thoughts about what I wrote. I know that the big arguement that will be brought up is that the military has taught PVT's how to use the 1911 for years. I just want to respond to this by saying yes the have "Taught" how to use the 191. They take a week of waking up at 0600 and pound and drill how to use this pistol in to your head till 1700. Everyday. So you are not just picking it up and walking to a range shooting a few rounds out of it and saying that it is good enough to carry. So here is my response to the question of what is a good 1911 to carry.-
I will probably be struck by lightening for saying this, but if you dont know what 1911 is good for ccw, than I suggest carrying something besides it. Glock, XD, M&P. This is no diss on you, but 1911's are heavy, more uncomfortable, (realize I put more, nothing is comfortable.) and really unless you are really familiar with a 1911 and shot one a million times it is not the best for someone who isn't a gun expert. It is my opinion that like a J-frame S&W that a 1911 should only be carried for ccw by people who shoot alot and shoot 1911's.
But look this is all my opinion. 1911 is the all time greatest gun, but it is a gun that shout be respected. It is not a dummy gun. And most times, unlike a Glock\polymer wondergun, the 1911 doesnt run better the more you beat it up. You need to maintain it, understand it, love it.
This is all for ccw only. If you want one to shoot and have fun with then great buy a 100 of them, but you must remember you are trusting your life to this if you will be carrying it. I would never buy a backhoe to dig a hole cause I cant operate one, but i will buy a shovel.
So I would love to hear your thoughts.
What you say about the 1911 is true. It is not a dummy gun, and should only be a CCW for someone that knows how to use it. But isn't that true about ANY CCW gun? I would not advise anyone too carry a gun that he or she has not put many hours of pracitice and 100's to 1000's of rounds thru at the range. Practice, practice, practice, Training, training, training!!! You should know your gun inside and out. I don't think I can say that enough.
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all the years ago when i took my handgun safety course in order to get my ccw... the instructor who taught the class said at the end that he would pay for all of us (it was only 5) to go out to the range and fire 500 rounds through the firearm that they intended on carrying... he even brought several of his own firearms to let the individuals who lacked the knowledge of firearms to try in order to determine the best gun for them... i thought that was really cool of this guy, after the 500 rounds were up he strongly suggested that we all join a gun club or gun range in order to continue to train in order to better know the firearm... so while it is true that 1911's require alot of respect and maintinance, it is the same for all firearms... they are literaly "deadly efficient" at what they do so i dont think that just any one should be able to conceal carry, i think that people NEED to put the time into the training, whether it is going to be a 1911 a glock or a wheel gun
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These replies are both true enough but there is NO WAY that you can say a revolver is as complex to operate and maintain as a 1911. Same with striker fired pistols. Remember, we have had experianced shooters on here asking about the safety of carrying a 1911 "Cocked and locked"
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I agree John Browning made a great pistol, but it is as dangerous to the operator as it is to the threat. It dosent matter what maker, star, RIA, colt or the hundreds of others that build on the design. It takes more training and dedication than ANY other carry gun.
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I started out with a KelTec P11. I wanted a foolproof pistol and the long, heavy trigger pull was just the ticket, or so I thought. They are pretty hard to shoot accurately BECAUSE of the trigger pull.The internal parts broke so often I lost trust in it.
I eventually switched to 1911s. I think they are very safe because of the multiple safeties. I would never carry a Glock or similar pistol. They are too easy to have a negligent or accidental discharge, IMHO.
I have ingrained myself with the habits of never placing my finger in the trigger guard unless/until I am sighted on a target. My thumb always goes on the top of the thumb safety as I draw it.
If I handle a pistol to move it, etc I don't grip it normally. I grasp it around the center. This way nothing is going to press the trigger or deactivate the grip safety.
For full disclosure, I've gotten much more aware of safety since I shot myself in the leg in January.
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I eventually switched to 1911s. I think they are very safe because of the multiple safeties. I would never carry a Glock or similar pistol. They are too easy to have a negligent or accidental discharge, IMHO.
You can't be serious Glocks are one of the safest pistols to carry. They won't fire when dropped a 1911 will unless it is of the newer style with a firing pin block and glock has a half inch of trigger travel before it will fire. An accidental or negligent discharge is much more likely with a 1911. Don't get me wrong I love the 1911 but to say a Glock is not safe is crazy. A revolver doesn't have a safety either the safety is the user and the long trigger travel. If Glocks were not safe to carry so many police and sherrif departments wouldn't issue them. Just my .02 cents worth.
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I started out with a KelTec P11. I wanted a foolproof pistol and the long, heavy trigger pull was just the ticket, or so I thought. They are pretty hard to shoot accurately BECAUSE of the trigger pull.The internal parts broke so often I lost trust in it.
I eventually switched to 1911s. I think they are very safe because of the multiple safeties. I would never carry a Glock or similar pistol. They are too easy to have a negligent or accidental discharge, IMHO.
I have ingrained myself with the habits of never placing my finger in the trigger guard unless/until I am sighted on a target. My thumb always goes on the top of the thumb safety as I draw it.
If I handle a pistol to move it, etc I don't grip it normally. I grasp it around the center. This way nothing is going to press the trigger or deactivate the grip safety.
For full disclosure, I've gotten much more aware of safety since I shot myself in the leg in January.
That will do it ;D The two loudest sounds on earth are a click when you expect a bang and a bang when you expect a click.
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This is all for ccw only. If you want one to shoot and have fun with then great buy a 100 of them, but you must remember you are trusting your life to this if you will be carrying it. I would never buy a backhoe to dig a hole cause I cant operate one, but i will buy a shovel.[/color]
So I would love to hear your thoughts.
The 1911 was primarily designed and used as a military combat pistol carried openly in a holster for most of it's history. When I use a 1911 design that is how I carry it.
Since I personally think it unlikely I will have occasion to fire more than four or five shots in an urban setting before I can resupply with a rifle or bigger pistol the 1911 style is not my first choice for routine everyday defense.
Yes, in an ideal world I would like to have the comfort of my Series 70 with me in a hip holster as it was designed to be carried, but for now that argument has been rendered moot by the knuckleheads of yesteryear and it will take a level 5 divine intervention to alter the current circumstances.
So until then, no 1911 daily defense pistol for me.
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Are there "better" guns and more “modern” guns to carry? Sure.
“Can” a 1911 be a great defense and carry gun? You bet.
You practice and train with it (or any gun) and you are confident that it will go “boom” and place rounds on the target where you want them, then you have a gun to carry.
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"The 1911 was primarily designed and used as a military combat pistol carried openly in a holster for most of it's history. When I use a 1911 design that is how I carry it."
"“Can” a 1911 be a great defense and carry gun? You bet."
With the compacts, and sub compacts, and other 1911 variants, the right rig can easily make one used for CCW. Kimber Ultra is a nice one with the traditional features. But I agree, it's NOT a rookie pistol.
However, with gun evolution, one can keep caliber, without the 1911 frame style. Like the Kahr PM45, shorter than the G36, slimmer,and lighter. DAO. A little more user friendly, for those who don't want a "cocked and locked" situation. Although, Kahr's and Kimber's are pricey, for those who want the .45, one's out there.
All LEO's here in S.E. NC, that want to carry a .45, of any style, have to go through additional training and qualify with it.
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That will do it ;D The two loudest sounds on earth are a click when you expect a bang and a bang when you expect a click.
haha +1
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Great replies.
Just want to say a couple things, when I wrote this I meant it as someone new to firearms and not very experienced. Thats what I meant by it not being a the best choice in that circumstance.
A Glock is one of the safest firearms ever made.
And I think that a 1911 is the best choice, for someone with experience, for self defense, war time pistol, and all out duty weapon.
But it needs to be maintained, hence needing experience. You can not run it like a Glock in Iraq. It will take everynight while in your tent to clean, lube, and love it. But that all becomes a routine, cause you should be doing the same to your M-16\M-4.
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I started out with a KelTec P11. I wanted a foolproof pistol and the long, heavy trigger pull was just the ticket, or so I thought. They are pretty hard to shoot accurately BECAUSE of the trigger pull.The internal parts broke so often I lost trust in it.
I eventually switched to 1911s. I think they are very safe because of the multiple safeties. I would never carry a Glock or similar pistol. They are too easy to have a negligent or accidental discharge, IMHO.
I have ingrained myself with the habits of never placing my finger in the trigger guard unless/until I am sighted on a target. My thumb always goes on the top of the thumb safety as I draw it.
If I handle a pistol to move it, etc I don't grip it normally. I grasp it around the center. This way nothing is going to press the trigger or deactivate the grip safety.
For full disclosure, I've gotten much more aware of safety since I shot myself in the leg in January.
As to the Glock bashing comment........ I think you are drinking too much of that far left Kool Aid.
As to the shooting yourself in the leg comment....... I would be very interested to see you do a thread explaining what actually happened.
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Ksail101, I don't believe the Glock is one of the safest handguns ever made! I believe any handgun with a safety that is taken off when you put your finger on the trigger is unsafe. I also do not like the XD because of the grip safety. I also do not like the HK P7 "Sgueeze Cocker" had my only AD with one. Don't know too much about the other plastic pistols.
I believe the shooter makes the weapon safe and I've heard too many AD stories! That being said, would I have any of these weapons? I would/might buy any of them except the P7 (I don't like the sights and price).
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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I own and carry both 1911's and a Glock 27 sub-compact.
I carried a 1911 for 15 years (I'm a big fella'). But, circumstances change and now I carry the Glock mostly.
I would rather carry the 1911 instead of the Glock but the Glock is so much lighter and easier to conceal in my climate, that I carry it 75% of the time.
My main issue with the Glock was getting used to the fact that it had no manual safety other than a trigger blocking mechanism.
I guess I'm old school because I still don't care for DA autos with a de-cocker. I could never get used to the hammer falling with a round in the chamber and it not going boom.
I cut my handgun 'teeth' on 1911's and I am more comfortable with a cocked-and-locked 1911 than anything else. But I also believe that 'creature-comfort' plays a big role. A gun at home ain't gonna help if I'm in town.
That being said, I don't 'distrust' my Glock (if I did, I would not carry it), I'm just more aware that it is a totally different manual of arms than a 1911.
Good training can overcome apprehension.
Practice, practice, practice.
:D
Hope my babbling made sense.
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I carried a G- 22 for 17 years, it was too big for my hand to shoot consistantly off handed, it was not that accurate, it never had a FTF , feed , fire or battery problem. It ate everything and was consistant in the grouping. I sold it and bought what I think is a better side arm , my 1911, now dont get me wrong I would buy another if the damn thing fit my hand the way the 1911 does. The other pistol I carry is the PT 140 and I have had no issues since break in with it, and it fits. 8)
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A Glock is one of the safest firearms ever made.
It depends on which side of the weapon you are on. Besides, I just liked the irony of the statement.
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The "Train with it if you're gonna carry it" Statement is true about ALL GUNS. Know how to operate and maintain the gun you'll be betting your life on. Whether revolver, 1911, or GLOCK. My main carry is a revolver. BUT, I've carried 1911's (which I've been familiar with since before my dad taught me to shoot. He taught me to field strip one when I was 11 or 12.), GLOCK, and Ruger P90, which I also know how to operate. I've had an ND with a Kimber 1911, but also had one with the Ruger's longer heavier DA trigger (no one was hurt either time, thankfully.). The important thing with ANY gun, is to know how to operate it, and FOLLOW THE DAMN SAFETY RULES. Because they can ALL Be dangerous.
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I just want to put out this thought and it is the last I want to have to defend Glocks, they do their own defending.
The reason why you all hear these crazy stories of Glocks and them AD ing is that there are so many of them in service. They hand these things to people with no experience with a Gun at the academy and then have people carry them who shouldnt be carrying guns anyway and BAM you got AD stories. I have seen more than my far share of Cops in Lynnwood, WA (the most corupt, scandless police force in America) that should never be anywhere near a gun none the less carry one on their belt everyday.
There is a scene in Blackhawk Down when the commander of the Rangers goes up to a Delta Force Operator and says "soldier you are carrying a Hot weapon there," the response "this is my safety" as he curls his finger in the face of the commander.
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Some thoughts here...when Glocks first came into the country,they came in with relatively light triggers. Since the Glocks were the first popular striker-fired no-manually operated safety pistol, there were a spate of ADs as the guns were first integrated into law enforcement. I was one of the only gunwriters to flag the potential safety issues at that time (for which I took a substantial ration of 'Schumer'). Glock heavied up the production triggers shortly thereafter, and the rest is history.
I generally agree that some firearms lend themselves to the "expert carry" category for one reason or the other — the 1911 for a relatively complex manual of arms; a light-triggered Glock or any striker-fired pistol with a trigger-mounted safety and a light trigger pull, an H-K squeeze-cocker because of its non-intuitive cocking system. However, I strongly agree that any gun is dangerous if you don't understand how to manipulate it!
However, the 4 Rules solve all safety problems. I handle a lot of weird guns...some that cause me to say, what the heck? But the 4 Rules provide an absolute way for handling guns safely!
Michael B
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Some thoughts here...when Glocks first came into the country,they came in with relatively light triggers. Since the Glocks were the first popular striker-fired no-manually operated safety pistol, there were a spate of ADs as the guns were first integrated into law enforcement. I was one of the only gunwriters to flag the potential safety issues at that time (for which I took a substantial ration of 'Schumer'). Glock heavied up the production triggers shortly thereafter, and the rest is history.
I generally agree that some firearms lend themselves to the "expert carry" category for one reason or the other — the 1911 for a relatively complex manual of arms; a light-triggered Glock or any striker-fired pistol with a trigger-mounted safety and a light trigger pull, an H-K squeeze-cocker because of its non-intuitive cocking system. However, I strongly agree that any gun is dangerous if you don't understand how to manipulate it!
However, the 4 Rules solve all safety problems. I handle a lot of weird guns...some that cause me to say, what the heck? But the 4 Rules provide an absolute way for handling guns safely!
Michael B
Amen, Brother......Well said.
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Some thoughts here...when Glocks first came into the country,they came in with relatively light triggers. Since the Glocks were the first popular striker-fired no-manually operated safety pistol, there were a spate of ADs as the guns were first integrated into law enforcement. I was one of the only gunwriters to flag the potential safety issues at that time (for which I took a substantial ration of 'Schumer'). Glock heavied up the production triggers shortly thereafter, and the rest is history.
IMichael B
Michael,
AD's or ND's? I think there a huge difference. I have witnessed ND's with M9's and they may have the longest trigger pull known to mankind.
Michael I agree if you follow the 4 rules of firearms safety are the gold standard and can not be violated.
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I've been watching for stories about ADs and NDs for the past 6 months. Glocks seem to be involved in more than their fair share. Having said that, we all know that 100% of them resulted from someone having their finger on the trigger when it shouldn't have been.
As for my story on my ND
http://negligentdischarge.com
Please be kind.
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The other day, I was informed that one of our city officers has been put on administrative leave for ND/AD with his duty Sig 220. Thankfully, no injuries. I'll bet he'd be the safest cop on the line now!
1911 - Carrying a cocked and locked 1911 has to be about the safest method of carry. Pressure has to be applied in 3 directions. Back to front for the grip safety, down for the manual safety and front to back to press the trigger. But once you've had to draw your weapon is there a different story? How about threat management? The subject is complying with orders, and maybe a longer trigger pull would be beneficial in that high adrenaline situation. Maybe not. Mass Ayoob's given some examples in Combat Handguns. Could make the Para LDA the ultimate carry gun.
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I've been watching for stories about ADs and NDs for the past 6 months. Glocks seem to be involved in more than their fair share. Having said that, we all know that 100% of them resulted from someone having their finger on the trigger when it shouldn't have been.
As for my story on my ND
http://negligentdischarge.com
Please be kind.
Ow. OW! Darn lucky the arteries didn't get severed. And the Hydra-shok fell apart and left frags in you to boot. What's up with that?
I'm passing the site on to a retired NYPD cop buddy who routinely handles his loaded firearms with a devil-may-care attitude. Incidentally, he's the same guy who told me the NYPD specced their service GLOCKS at a minimum 11 lb trigger pull after multiple AD/ND. And an aside - his service weapon, which was supposed to be sent to him was 'accidentally' destroyed last year under Bloomberg. How do you 'accidentally' retrieve a vouchered PO weapon and burn it?
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I've been watching for stories about ADs and NDs for the past 6 months. Glocks seem to be involved in more than their fair share. Having said that, we all know that 100% of them resulted from someone having their finger on the trigger when it shouldn't have been.
As for my story on my ND
http://negligentdischarge.com
Please be kind.
Thanks for sharing the link...I'm passing it on to all my shooting friends.
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Ow. OW! Darn lucky the arteries didn't get severed. And the Hydra-shok fell apart and left frags in you to boot. What's up with that?
Actually an artery WAS severed. It fused with a vein. That's called a fistula. It swelled up into a pseudo aneurysm. Artery bypass surgery fixed that, it went back to a fistula. Fistula finally fixed (I hope) with an angiogram. They put 10 platinum coils in my leg to cut off blood flow to the fistula. Still no luck with the severed nerve. The whole story is detailed in the updates page. I carry Hornaday TAPs now.Same pistol.
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It depends on which side of the weapon you are on. Besides, I just liked the irony of the statement.
The brain is one of the most unsafe weapons ever made.
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I can carry my Para LDA UNcocked and locked which I believe makes it safer than any single action 1911 and most DAOs. To me it seems to have most of the advantages of conventional 1911s and DAO autos. Most DAOs don't even have a safety so there are accidents waiting to happen. I also have heard about a lot of Glocks going bang when they shouldn't. But if you hang your pistol by the trigger when sitting on the toilet, maybe you deserve to be shot in the @$$. Anyone who can't handle a pistol safely shouldn't carry one. Unfortunately most of these Glock accidents are happening to cops.
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I've been watching for stories about ADs and NDs for the past 6 months. Glocks seem to be involved in more than their fair share. Having said that, we all know that 100% of them resulted from someone having their finger on the trigger when it shouldn't have been.
As for my story on my ND
http://negligentdischarge.com
Please be kind.
At least you aren't eligible for a DARWIN Award. You knew someone would have to mention that sooner or later. On one X-ray it looks like you have a heel spur too. Mine only hurts if I stand up or if I stood up the day before. ;D
Frank
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I can carry my Para LDA UNcocked and locked which I believe makes it safer than any single action 1911 and most DAOs. To me it seems to have most of the advantages of conventional 1911s and DAO autos. Most DAOs don't even have a safety so there are accidents waiting to happen. I also have heard about a lot of Glocks going bang when they shouldn't. But if you hang your pistol by the trigger when sitting on the toilet, maybe you deserve to be shot in the @$$. Anyone who can't handle a pistol safely shouldn't carry one. Unfortunately most of these Glock accidents are happening to cops.
That Para LDA sure has some great carry advantages. My HK USP is similar. I can carry it cocked and unlocked, cocked and locked and uncocked/unlocked. One extra bonus is that I can also run cleaning and maintenance with the safety engaged. The slide will even cycle with the safety engaged. After that ND story, I'll always be double checking the barrel. The HK is definitely not as slim for carry.
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Asuming your 1911 is in sound working order, carrying it cocked and locked is safer then most striker fired pistols.
3 things would have to happen for it to go bang.
Safety would have to come off
the grib safety would have to be depressed
the trigger would have to be pulled.
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I just thought of something. How often do you guys check your grip safety? I don't check mine very often.
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I just thought of something. How often do you guys check your grip safety? I don't check mine very often.
That's a very good point, glad you mentioned it.
I just replaced one for a friend in his Springfield 1911 (I built it for him in 1997). It had worn down enough at the contact point that it no longer blocked the trigger. He had just put a coat of Dura-coat on the frame and asked me to come over and reassemble it. I noticed it was worn, and sure enough, when I got it back together, it didnt block properly. Good thing is, it's a quick fix.
I check mine often.
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It's a good idea to check all the safety features every time you clean your weapon. I run through the various safeties and all just to check.
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All these guns are safe to be carried... if done so by a responsible person who is familiar with that particular weapon. And I don't care what some say about Glock not being safe because they don't have a manual safety etc. They are simply ignorant to the fact that Glocks are safe... as long as you don't pull the trigger or as long as you don't let something touch the trigger when the gun is ready to fire...that means a holster, etc. If you securely carry your gun with the trigger covered and keep it secure.. it is safe.. why is that so hard for some to understand. Furthermore, what happens if your safety gets knocked off a gun that has a safety or if you forget to put the safety on? Then you have the same situation of a Glock but without the safety system of the Glock.. which would be less safe. ........ Anyway.. carry any gun in a safe manner it will be okay.
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All these guns are safe to be carried... if done so by a responsible person who is familiar with that particular weapon. And I don't care what some say about Glock not being safe because they don't have a manual safety etc. They are simply ignorant to the fact that Glocks are safe... as long as you don't pull the trigger or as long as you don't let something touch the trigger when the gun is ready to fire...that means a holster, etc. If you securely carry your gun with the trigger covered and keep it secure.. it is safe.. why is that so hard for some to understand. Furthermore, what happens if your safety gets knocked off a gun that has a safety or if you forget to put the safety on? Then you have the same situation of a Glock but without the safety system of the Glock.. which would be less safe. ........ Anyway.. carry any gun in a safe manner it will be okay.
HawkFish, I am not familiar with the safety design of the Glock, I have only fired them on 2 occasions, My experience is with SA or DA/SA revolvers and SA semi auto's (1911, P-38 etc.) Other than a longer trigger pull why is a Glock safer than a DA revolver (if in fact it is) It is my impression that a Glock would be less safe than a "locked and cocked" thumb safety engaged 1911, is this correct, or is there something to the design that I am over looking, (bearing in mind that with a 1911 even if the thumb safety gets knocked off it is still necessary to overcome the grip safety in order to fire) My question assumes all pistols in factory working order and equal training for users.
Please don't take this as Glock bashing, or trying to get your goat (I'd NEVER do a thing like that ;D ) I was in fact favorably impressed with both examples I have had the opportunity to try even if trigger pull was longer than I'm used to.
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tombogan03884, I will try to explain further. I would like to point out too that it wouldn't matter if you were bashing Glocks. I don't care if someone doesn't like Glock. That's is their opinion and prerogative. What bothers me is when they safe stuff that just flat isn't true or they just flat don't know what they are talking about. So...
Glock's are super simply and effective. Contrary to the conventional 1911 style, the trigger is the only operating element. All three pistol safeties are deactivated when the trigger is pulled -and automatically activated when it is released. Therefore, even though Glock doesn't have an external safety, it has three internal safeties. Once you start pulling the trigger in kinda goes in a chain reaction..then it fires. If it doesn't get through the whole chain of motion..the gun won't fire. The only way it will fire is for the standard 5.5lb.. or 3.5lb ..or whatever the trigger pull weight of that particular gun is... to be applied to the trigger and then pulled all the way back.. thus getting the striker to hit the bullet. Basically, the gun won't fire until you pull the trigger all the way back. And if you don't... the gun's internal safties are engaged..until you do. That's why they call them Glock "Safe Action" Pistols. So, contrary to what people say (especially anti-Glocker's) unless you pulll the trigger so far back..they won't go boom. But, guess what if you do pull the trigger or allow something to push/pull the trigger.. you better believe that the gun will fire.. because they are dependable, reliable, and don't jam. And this is exactly what is so upsetting. Someone dosen't keep the trigger covered or allows something to get inside the trigger guard and then the gun goes off. That's not Glocks fault. That is some goober's fault that wasn't using proper gun safety.. Yet other goober's will blame Glock.. which shows how un-gun-safe or non-gun understanding they are. It's not the guns fault! It also applies to others guns. People need to stand up and take some responsibility instead of blaming someone else for their stupidity. I hope that helps further explain why Glocks are safe if you understand the truth.
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Thanks for the explanation HawkFish.
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When I was issued the M1911A1 by Uncle Sam, I was required to function check the thumb and grip safety every time it was issued to me. I still do that w mine every time I saddle one up.
I know what you mean, BUT...
There are no perfect guns, and no perfect people. Stuff happens.
Some guns are by design closer to the edge in the real world of real people where stuff does happen. Guns that are easier to shoot when you want to are easier to shoot when you don't want to. Guns that are harder to shoot when you don't want to are harder to shoot when you do want to... There IS more to this than just teaching/learning the rules, and gun design IS a part of it.
A group of officers were put through several high stress scenarios w DA/SA autos w sensors on the triggers. Officers who were trained not to put their finger on the trigger until they shot often did so anyway, often w enough force to fire if they had been in SA mode. Most were unaware they had done it, and swore they did not, but they did.
Requiring a trigger pull in the field strip sequence is asking for trouble from less than perfect people too, and trouble often answers loudly.
Why from 2000 - 2004 there were 14 "unintentional" discharges during enforcement operations, and 88 during non enforcement ops in the DOJ. Why there were 8 w Glocks, 1 w a 1911, and 1 w a S&W revolver in the DEA in 2007 alone.
Some will be safer w a 1911 w a 1 lb trigger, pinned grip safety, and cut off trigger guard than some will w a DAO revolver w a 16 lb trigger, a Glock w a NY + trigger, or a M&P w a manual thumb safety. Most will not.
Let your judgement, training, and experience be your guide on your gun design.
As for the guy/gal next to ya at the range, in the stall at the mall, on your traffic stop, etc: Lady Luck is "la belle dame sans merci." And Murphy is her date/partner.
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Yeah.. but for every action there is an equal or opposite reaction. And if you don't put your finger on the trigger or allow something to touch it.. there is no action. Also, Mr. Murphy didn't not have the gracitious opportunity to shoot or carry modern high quality handguns or his law might have been wrote with a different discord.
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I just thought of something. How often do you guys check your grip safety? I don't check mine very often.
Actually, without realizing it, I check mine often. Most times that I'm sitting around handling the 1911, I end up checking it.