The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tman on August 03, 2008, 12:51:40 PM
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What's your opinion on the best 9mm ammo for SD. I know there is a lot of more experienced shooters and leo's then me, hope MB chimes in on this.
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Personally, use 124 gr +P Golden Saber(feeds best). Though Gold dot and HST would be OK.
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Try Cor-Bon DPX
Richard
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Albeit I don’t carry a 9mm anymore (SIG P220 in 45ACP) I have no problem with a 9mm for self defense. I am down to just one 9mm right now (a Behlert tuned Belgium Browning HP), but my 9mm will feed reliably, exceeds my usually anally retentive standards for accuracy, and I shoot it very well. I have a lot of confidence in that weapon and the 9mm round.
Lot of great 9mm rounds available. Experiment, find what you shoot the best and be confident.
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Although it's no longer the latest in ammo technology, My G-26 still gets loaded with 124gr Hydra Shok HP.
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+1 to the Hydra Shok. Can never go wrong.
I also like the Winchester Silver Tip.
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What's your opinion on the best 9mm ammo for SD. I know there is a lot of more experienced shooters and leo's then me, hope MB chimes in on this.
My best guess would be the Mag Safe +P at 540 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. That's more powerful than half of the .357 Magnum loads made. But at nearly 3 bucks a pop you probably can't afford to practice with it enough to make sure your pistol funtions well with it.
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http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
use this info and it covers most. ::) :o
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The current hot load the FBI is using is the +P+ Federal Hollow Point 9 mm (Product code# 9BPLE ) this is LE only ammo by Federal not the ATF.
I spoke with Mas Ayoob and he also recomended this load. I found some on Gunbroker for about 14.00 a box (50 Round box) plus shipping out of Tulsa OK. I think.
Just my 2 cents worth
Jon
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Hornady 115 XTP
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I find that a 147 grain Winchester white box JHP performs well in phone books and water and I carry it off-duty. I carry Winchester 155 Ranger Talons in my duty weapon because it is the norm.
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The current hot load the FBI is using is the +P+ Federal Hollow Point 9 mm (Product code# 9BPLE ) this is LE only ammo by Federal not the ATF.
I spoke with Mas Ayoob and he also recomended this load. I found some on Gunbroker for about 14.00 a box (50 Round box) plus shipping out of Tulsa OK. I think. ......
Good information...if Ayoob likes it there is probably a good reason to like it. That having been said, I stoke up on the Corbon DPX rounds......
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http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
use this info and it covers most. ::) :o
Thanks for the link. Looks like .357 and .45ACP are still kings for one-shot stops, (like all calibers, with right ammo) same as 30 years ago.
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Thanks everyone, I will try each of your suggestions.
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Taurus said no to +P ammo in my 24/7
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+1 to the Hydra Shok. Can never go wrong.
I also like the Winchester Silver Tip.
Another bump for the Hydra Shok
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If your gun is rated for +P then use it! I run 147gr Hornady TAP in my Glock 26 and have been very happy with the performance.
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How does .44 SP stack up against .357 Mag and .45 ACP for stopping power?
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How does .44 SP stack up against .357 Mag and .45 ACP for stopping power?
.44 Spl rate between 65-76% with 200-240 bullets. Not much data on .44
.44Mag between 92-96% with 210-240, again not much data
.357Mag, 96% between 93-96% with 125 gr JHP, depending on mfg.
.45ACP, 96% with 180 Rem GS and 230% Fed HS
Lots of data with .357 and .45ACP
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Although stopping power is an interesting measure of handgun performance...it is (in my opinion) a flawed statistic that does not take into account the dynamics of mental reaction to a) having the business end of a gun pointed at you, or b) how the nervous system will react to having a projectile of any size ripping through your innards. I think the following article sums this up quite well...
In my last CCW class, I had somebody talk about the famous “Marshall & Sanow One Shot Stop Statistics” and about how this student was going to use a 97% round instead of a 92% round.
Okay, if you aren’t familiar with these, basically these two guys, Marshall & Sanow, supposedly looked at a ton of actual shootings, where people had been shot once in the torso with a bullet, and then they measured what percentage of those resulted in an immediate stop, i.e. immediate cessation of hostile action.
Then they published their work, and all bullets were rated. Immediately, people who were not given to critical thinking, accepted these percentages as gospel, and you could hear people arguing at gunshows and on the interweb about how they’re more tactically saavy because their handgun load was a 94% stopper, while yours was a meager 82% stopper.
Over time the flaws in this stuff became apparent, and luckily we don’t have to hear about it as often as we used to. But it still pops up once in awhile.
Let’s break this down as to why this idea is massively flawed. First, assuming that their data was not fabricated (because of lot of the shootings weren’t documented by anybody other than them), this wasn’t exactly scientific data. It wasn’t like they lined up 300 death row prisoners, shot each one in the chest with a different brand of .45 and then watched the clock until they quit kicking. Supposedly these were incidents from actual gun fights.
And since gun fights by their nature are fluid, dynamic, and always suck, we can also assume that they’re going to be different. To illustrate:
Shooting 1: Subject is 105 pounds, soaking wet. Pacifist. Faints at the sight of his own blood. His book club calls him “Todd.” Has never been in a violent encounter in his entire life. Plays Barbara Streisand records to get “charged up”. Gets shot in the abdomen with a Brand X .32. Bullet lodges in the belly button. Barely breaks skin. Subject faints because of loud noise. .32 Brand X = 100% stopper.
Shooting 2: Subject is 310 pounds of prison hardened muscle. Has a spider web tattooed over his whole face, and his friends call him “Death Train”. Subject 2 is high on coke, crack, meth, elephant tranquilizers, No-Doze, and Cherry Pepsi. While robbing a bank during a tri-state killing spree, Subject 2 engages in a running gun fight with police and is shot through the lung with a Brand Y .45. Subject 2 then carjacks a busload of handicapped nuns to escape. Later has friend who flunked out of Vet School remove the bullet with a pair of barbeque tongs. Subject 2 then goes to 50 Cent concert. Brand Y .45 = 0% stopper.
So from this illustration, you are far better off carrying the Brand X .32 than the Brand Y .45.
Now obviously, that is flawed, because of the nature of the subjects. Death Train and Todd are not equivalent in any way. Death Train would EAT Todd. However, they’re both people that got shot in the torso with a single round, therefore they are valid M&S stats.
Then you’ve got people shot in the heart vs. those shot in the gut. Both bad, but one is usually fatal in a matter of seconds by the basic facts of biology. However, both are one shot stops. So if the guy carrying an inferior round, is a better shot, that round gets a better percentage.
And then my personal favorite, they disregard multiple shots. Because if you shoot the guy twice, then that doesn’t count. I don’t know about you guys, but anybody worth shooting is worth shooting five to seven times. I’m not going to shoot the guy once, and then wait around to see what percentile he falls into. My gun is going to sound like a friggin’ jackhammer until he decides to leave me the hell alone.
Once again, before you jump onto any Gun World bandwagon, exercise a little critical thinking.
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/one-shot-stop-handgun-statistics-and-why-theyre-a-load-of-crap/ (http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/one-shot-stop-handgun-statistics-and-why-theyre-a-load-of-crap/)
Just my $0.02 worth.
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CZ, that was a good read, shot placement a important factor
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Try Cor-Bon DPX
Richard I cant disagree with this pick. Although I like the Federal EFMJ . That being said I dont like a 9mm , other than that the heaviest +p+ Gold Dot bullet would be a good choice. My wife has just started carrying a Kel-Tec PF-9 until we can get hold of the federal round shes loading S&B FMJ .
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You can't go wrong with anything made with a Barnes bullet.
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My p226 is full of Speer Gold Dot, as is my P220 compact, my Kel-Tec P3AT and my USP Compact 40sw.
Hey, if it ain't broke... ;)
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A long time ago I used to have the opinion of the 9 mickey mouse with 18 rounds and 2 spare mags meant two things )1 That is is a very bad situation with a lot of bad guy at one time or )2 you don't practise enough. But new developments have changed my way of thinking . And just for arguments sake there was an Leo I believe in Saginaw who had encountered a perp on PCP the perp was hit 13 times with a .357 before he went down. If I have to shoot someone that many times I am not aiming in the right spot. Maybe we all could agree 2 to the ticker one to the snot locker. Yes I love my .357 and adore my .45 but I am seriously looking for a 9.
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I've always been taken in by the stopping power myths and have tried to always make sure that I had access to larger, more powerful cartridges. After a recent match, some of the guys were pokin' fun at a giant of a guy that was shooting a 9mm Glock. For someone that hadn't been shooting matches a lot, he was kicking butt, so one of the RSO's says, "you shoot fast, but 9's are too wimpy for 1-shot stops." A gunny policeman who was shooting in the match set this guy straight and pointed out that there are no real one-shot stops and that you always shoot until the threat is neutralized. We can all repeat the mantra of 2 chest/1 head all day, but what if you never get those shots? What if under tremendous stress, we continually miss the gold zones. I guess that's when having another shot waiting to go in that wonder-nine would be comforting. I'm still kind of a .40/.45/.357 guy, but I'm thinking that I might buy a few more mags for the CZ.
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Although stopping power is an interesting measure of handgun performance...it is (in my opinion) a flawed statistic that does not take into account the dynamics of mental reaction to a) having the business end of a gun pointed at you, or b) how the nervous system will react to having a projectile of any size ripping through your innards. I think the following article sums this up quite well...
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/one-shot-stop-handgun-statistics-and-why-theyre-a-load-of-crap/ (http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/one-shot-stop-handgun-statistics-and-why-theyre-a-load-of-crap/)
Just my $0.02 worth.
30 some odd years ago, the FBI published a report about shooting and effects. They were the first ones to rate .357 and .45ACP in the 96 to 98% rankings based on shooting statistics. I do not know if they have any current reports. There has been a lot of improvments in the science of bullet making. Seems like the saying about taking a knife into a gunfight might apply here. Why would a person want to take a caliber that is known to have questionable stopping power to a gunfight versus one that will in most probability stop with one shot, if shot placement is made. Yes, there are a lot of factors that can affect what happens when a person is hit. I would prefer to use a caliber that can stop with one round, rather than having to rely on double-tap or more. To me the most important factor on caliber choice is what a person is comfortable with.
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I would offically like to change my name to Death Train. ;D I loved the writing in that peice, and stop picking on Todd!
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You never know what will happen when it comes to ballistics.
Case in point:
"Big Mickey" was a co-worker of mine a long time ago. He was a big man and got that way from a lifetime of manual labor.
On the weekends he worked part time as a bouncer at a local juke joint.
One night a patron got liquored up and commenced to squabbling with his old lady.
Big Mickey went to break up the fight.
The guy pulled a .38 and raised it up and pointed it at Mickey.
Realizing what was about to happen, Mickey tensed up his entire body (picture the Hulk in a pose-down).
The gun went off but everyone figured the guy missed because Mickey grabbed the gun and commenced to pound hell out of the guy.
Only afterward did anyone notice that Mickey was bleeding. He had a neat little .38 caliber hole in his right chest muscle.
Later at the hospital, the ER doctor removed an intact .38 wadcutter, undeformed.
Mental and physical conditions apply to every shooting. In this case both applied...along with caliber and power of projectile.
Point being, conditions change and there are too many variables to depend solely on charts and tables.
This was a true incident, I really knew Mickey.
Cancer took him a few years later.........RIP "Big Mickey".
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You all need to read the "Tales from the mortuary" thread. The gist is that a lot of people shot with little calibers wind up dead, every one shot with a big caliber is stopped, unless you are an "Operator" of some sort your LEGAL objective is NOT dead, it is to make them STOP doing what made you shoot them in the first place. A small caliber is a murder weapon, you have no choice but to kill with it as it lacks any of the EFFECTIVE intimidation factors, Noise, Flash, or a honking big muzzle, or a significant FEELING of impact.some one fires at you with a full power .357 or .45 even a non life threatening injury will make you rethink your career choices. If some one shoots at you with a .22, you can take a FATAL hit, and not even realize they have a gun.
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You all need to read the "Tales from the mortuary" thread. The gist is that a lot of people shot with little calibers wind up dead, every one shot with a big caliber is stopped, unless you are an "Operator" of some sort your LEGAL objective is NOT dead, it is to make them STOP doing what made you shoot them in the first place. A small caliber is a murder weapon, you have no choice but to kill with it as it lacks any of the EFFECTIVE intimidation factors, Noise, Flash, or a honking big muzzle, or a significant FEELING of impact.some one fires at you with a full power .357 or .45 even a non life threatening injury will make you rethink your career choices. If some one shoots at you with a .22, you can take a FATAL hit, and not even realize they have a gun.
+1
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I'm sure I would notice if I was shot with ANY caliber.
I'm of the big fat bullet is better mentality. http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/50gi_cartridge.shtml Big bullets make bigger holes and that little bit of extra width may be the difference between nicking an artery or severing it. I agree that it's not likely to happen, but who knows? I would rather have a .75 caliber but Uncle Sam says no, so we're stuck with .35, .40, .45, and 50 calibers. They even have .50 GI Glocks now. http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/sneakpreview.shtml