The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: PEOM on January 30, 2015, 10:05:08 PM
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I am a member of a volunteer church security team and have recently been asked to lead the team. I have been looking for information on training and proper response to an active shooter in a church. Now, low and behold, an episode of Best Defense will address that very issue. I know that this episode will impart some important points, but as with most things, this is just a start. Does anyone have information on training addressing active shooters? While there is starting to be training out there related to church security, the active shooter portion is less specific, more academic, and not geared to hands on training.
I appreciate any information this group may offer.
PEOM
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Hi PEOM,
I don't have an answer but did want to comment.
I work in a church. Not security. And I worry about terrorist attacks most Sundays, especially on Christmas and Easter. In my state, GA, only LEOs and licensed Security Guards hired by the church can carry on the property. Fortunately, our legislator made it a minor misdemeanor offense. Not that I would EVER break the law.
I'm not privy to our church's plans, but I think since we hire 5 off duty uniformed LEOs for traffic control the church leadership is hoping they will be sufficient. Of course, if I were a terrorist and had properly cased the joint, I'd wait until all 5 were in our break room enjoying breakfast and take them out first.
So I'm interested in what your church formulates. Even might like to pass it on to my management.
Haven't watch BD yet but have it on DVR and will watch this week sometime.
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Hi PEOM,
I don't have an answer but did want to comment.
I work in a church. Not security. And I worry about terrorist attacks most Sundays, especially on Christmas and Easter. In my state, GA, only LEOs and licensed Security Guards hired by the church can carry on the property. Fortunately, our legislator made it a minor misdemeanor offense. Not that I would EVER break the law.
I'm not privy to our church's plans, but I think since we hire 5 off duty uniformed LEOs for traffic control the church leadership is hoping they will be sufficient. Of course, if I were a terrorist and had properly cased the joint, I'd wait until all 5 were in our break room enjoying breakfast and take them out first.
So I'm interested in what your church formulates. Even might like to pass it on to my management.
Haven't watch BD yet but have it on DVR and will watch this week sometime.
Last years new gun legislation (HB60) allowed churches to "opt in" to allow licensed carry on church properties with "church" permission.
http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2014/04/11/gun_bill_report.pdf
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And opt-in will only happen in a very few.
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And opt-in will only happen in a very few.
Sadly, that is true.
Our last pastor was very pro 2nd Amendment and was intent on working on this at our church, but he resigned back in October and we are still seeking a replacement.
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Here are old threads I found on the subject, there are probably more.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=10903.0
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=1034.msg8843#msg8843
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=12404.msg161175#msg161175
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And opt-in will only happen in a very few.
Likely more than one would think. At least two companies that insure churches are quietly encouraging the formation of armed security teams. One company is actually owned by a denomination that has a long history of pacifism. I am in the process of moving from California to Idaho and the church we will attend there is a large one (about 1500 in two services) and I would bet that the "safety team" is armed. There are no signs banning guns and no state law prohibiting carry in churches.
Frankly, I think there have been enough shootings at houses of worship - all of which were "gun free zones" - that the insurance companies are seriously concerned about the liability of requiring church members and guests to be left defenseless. I also think that insurance companies are behind the actions of many businesses who have "requested" that people not carry, vs. posting the legally required signs. Sooner or later, some business or organization will loose a lawsuit over gun bans. When that happens, a lot of signs will come down.
BTW, I know this stuff because I am a retired minister.
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Likely more than one would think. At least two companies that insure churches are quietly encouraging the formation of armed security teams. One company is actually owned by a denomination that has a long history of pacifism. I am in the process of moving from California to Idaho and the church we will attend there is a large one (about 1500 in two services) and I would bet that the "safety team" is armed. There are no signs banning guns and no state law prohibiting carry in churches.
Frankly, I think there have been enough shootings at houses of worship - all of which were "gun free zones" - that the insurance companies are seriously concerned about the liability of requiring church members and guests to be left defenseless. I also think that insurance companies are behind the actions of many businesses who have "requested" that people not carry, vs. posting the legally required signs. Sooner or later, some business or organization will loose a lawsuit over gun bans. When that happens, a lot of signs will come down.
BTW, I know this stuff because I am a retired minister.
no insurance company is worried about that. If they are they are not a good insurance company, at least not when it comes to $$$. Its not just insurance company's. Several times a year you hear about a nd in a rest room. That results in $$$$$ in repairs. Having handed people invoices for $7000 for negligent discharge repairs( on duty cop btw some no chance to sue for the damages)
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no insurance company is worried about that. If they are they are not a good insurance company, at least not when it comes to $$$. Its not just insurance company's. Several times a year you hear about a nd in a rest room. That results in $$$$$ in repairs. Having handed people invoices for $7000 for negligent discharge repairs( on duty cop btw some no chance to sue for the damages)
Wow, I was not aware that there was an epidemic of negligent discharges among CCW holders. Also, read what I wrote - I said that increasingly insurance companies are becoming concerned about the liability of leaving people defenseless. At least one has gone public recommending armed security teams - something that would previously have been unthinkable. Let me make this clear, they are not suggesting that everyone with a permit be allowed to carry. Never the less, it does prove that they are concerned about churches leaving people defenseless. http://www.mennonitemutual.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Guns-In-Churches-Addressing-Church-Security-Needs-201307.pdf
If you think that the damages from an occasional ND is going to come close to the tens of millions (or more) that could result from a mass shooting with dozens of people killed or wounded, you aren't very good at math. One thing is sure: Corporations are indeed trying to have it both ways by "requesting" that people not carry in their businesses. Is this being done to please anti-gun groups? Of course, but if they are going to tick off gun owners, why not go all the way and post the required signage?
I think the answer to that question is that these businesses are not taking this step because their lawyers and/or insurance companies are concerned about taking the affirmative step of requiring people to disarm before entering their business. Remember, many people get permits because there is a very real threat. 25 years of experience with CCW proves that there is no security benefit to banning licensed persons and off duty cops from carrying in a business. That leaves only the downside risk. It really isn't complicated: Banning guns increases the chance of a random mass shooting. I believe at least some lawyers have actually figured this out.
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The max pay out of any church wil be the max insurance, so a couple mill at most. Just because on insurance company says, means nothing. Btw. Court case have said even police don't have to protect you.
For there to be damages caused by you being disarmed, you would have to prove that in court. Which in reality will not happen. Lawyers and insurance companys know this,.
This was a political move.
Having a gun does not equal self defense. Its just a tool. Its how you use it. If you truly believe that sd comes from a gun, well lets just say good luck.
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The max pay out of any church wil be the max insurance
So a church (or any other business), that insures itself for $15, that's the extent of their liability?
You might be off a tad there. Somehow I think their net worth is going to enter the conversation.
Having a gun does not equal self defense. Its just a tool. Its how you use it. If you truly believe that sd comes from a gun, well lets just say good luck.
It beats harsh language.
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So a church (or any other business), that insures itself for $15, that's the extent of their liability?
You might be off a tad there. Somehow I think their net worth is going to enter the conversation.
It beats harsh language.
if that is the extent of thier assets, then yes.
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if that is the extent of thier assets, then yes.
Errrrrrrr!!!! Wrong again big boy!
The reason for large liability policies is the hope that the offer of big bucks will head off a law suit. If you have a million dollar policy your company will offer half a million, then three quarter, then a million if needed. Juries don't care what your coverage is, and they may not even be aware of the amount when making awards.
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you can't get blood from a stone. the max payment you receive is what ever the insurance is. I don't care if the jury awards you a billion dollars. if the church spends all their assets fighting you the only thing that's left is there insurance policy.
.I really don't think any of you have been in big time lawsuits
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What about buildings, land, fixtures? There is a lot that can be gained.
As far as big time law suits: In a law suit over the death of a young boy on a Honda Big Red it was Honda International, our city ambulance service, three EMT's on the call with me being the first on the list, myself again as both president of the service and as training officer. Terms of the settlement prohibit us from sharing the dollars paid to the family (the family who ignored the owner's manual, dealer instructions and decal on the tank concerning riders under a given age and size) by the parties. I do not know what was paid out by Honda International, but I do know the number of zeros behind a number paid by our service. Thankfully I was covered by the service and city insurance policies, so my share of the settlement was paid by them and out of tax dollars.
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The max pay out of any church wil be the max insurance, so a couple mill at most. Just because on insurance company says, means nothing. Btw. Court case have said even police don't have to protect you.
For there to be damages caused by you being disarmed, you would have to prove that in court. Which in reality will not happen. Lawyers and insurance companys know this,.
This was a political move.
Having a gun does not equal self defense. Its just a tool. Its how you use it. If you truly believe that sd comes from a gun, well lets just say good luck.
The suit against the company would not say you were injured because you did not have your gun. It would say that since company policy deprived you of the means you determined was sufficient for your defense and did not, since you were injured, provide sufficient protection, the liability is the company's.
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As far as big time law suits: In a law suit over the death of a young boy on a Honda Big Red it was Honda International, our city ambulance service, three EMT's on the call with me being the first on the list, myself again as both president of the service and as training officer. Terms of the settlement prohibit us from sharing the dollars paid to the family (the family who ignored the owner's manual, dealer instructions and decal on the tank concerning riders under a given age and size) by the parties. I do not know what was paid out by Honda International, but I do know the number of zeros behind a number paid by our service. Thankfully I was covered by the service and city insurance policies, so my share of the settlement was paid by them and out of tax dollars.
Wow, reading that just really ticked me off. That's really low to sue the first responders who put their lives at stake on regular basis to help other people. They certainly don't get rich in that career path.
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Wow, reading that just really ticked me off. That's really low to sue the first responders who put their lives at stake on regular basis to help other people. They certainly don't get rich in that career path.
Problem is lawyers today don't look at the court system as a place of justice but as a slot machine. Put in your coin and pull the handle. You might win a bit or loose a bit, but sometimes you hit a jackpot. The more times you pull the handle the better your odds...especially when your client is putting up that coin...but they will often give their service for free just for that chance to win big. Not hard to get clients to see $$ and go along.
Unfortunately juries are also a problem...often seeing a downtrodden victim against a powerful money grabbing organization/group, regardless of where blame lies.
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The suit against the company would not say you were injured because you did not have your gun. It would say that since company policy deprived you of the means you determined was sufficient for your defense and did not, since you were injured, provide sufficient protection, the liability is the company's.
um that would never end up in court.
just a little fyi, I won a massive civil rights court case last year... I can not disclose the ammounts won, or the out come, but lets just say it was between 6 and 7 figures in total.... and I kept exactly 0 of it. gave it all away to charity.
trust me, whats right, fair and just has nothing to do with the court systems.
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um that would never end up in court.
*cough cough*bullshit*cough*
It just needs to be filed. You cannot be denied a filing.
trust me, whats right, fair and just has nothing to do with the court systems.
On that I will wholeheartedly agree! It's a LEGAL system, not a JUSTICE system.
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Back to the actual event:
Rumor has it our COO has a 5 minute video on how to respond to an active shooter and we will all be watching it next week. I imagine it's a sheeple thing. Run, leave, hide, throw cans of food.
I'm all for avoiding incoming fire, but sometimes that may not be an option.
Will report when I see it. Maybe even post it for you. I must watch the Best Defense before next week now.
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Alf,
Thanks for the update, and I look forward to a report. However, I think I have learned enough about you to trust you but I will say it anyway, don't dismiss everything non-firearm as sheeple. I get very tired and frustrated with the Rambos of the online world. I was taught, and I base my training on three phases: Avoid! Deescalate! React!; And react is not always a firearm solution. Just because we have a gun on us, or wish we did, doesn't make everything a gun option. We also need to remember that not everybody WANTS to rely on a gun. And in many situations the gun option is ruled out due to surroundings where gunfire will cause more damage.
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I am a member of a volunteer church security team and have recently been asked to lead the team. I have been looking for information on training and proper response to an active shooter in a church. Now, low and behold, an episode of Best Defense will address that very issue. I know that this episode will impart some important points, but as with most things, this is just a start. Does anyone have information on training addressing active shooters? While there is starting to be training out there related to church security, the active shooter portion is less specific, more academic, and not geared to hands on training.
I appreciate any information this group may offer.
PEOM
That's all well and good, but this is not the appropriate place for thread drift.
Does any one have any thing more useful to contribute than "let them all die or the insurance will ruin you" ?
Let's stick to PEOM's question here.
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Churches are not that much different than schools when it comes to this issue. The big name course in our area, and gaining traction nation wide, is ALICE. I am not an overall fan of it, but that may be because of the gestopo like officers we have teaching it down here. Another course to look into, but he hasn't offered much over the last year, is Rob Pincus' SARC (School Attacker Response Course. Even though Rob doesn't have any scheduled, he has trained several instructors in this.
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I would say the major issue in that environment is actually going to be crowd control. as with any emergency in a heavily populated building. I will review your fire escape procedures. they might not be up to par, it will also give you a good basis on how to evacuate people. which as I see it is the real major issue.
plus you can also train people on fire escape at the same time.
as M 58 said, avoid, defuse, react. the avoid parts pretty simple actually live a Christian lifestyle, that will stop most shooting in churches. there was a recent story of where a reverend was shot by a practitioner. it turns out the good Reverend was banging his wife and knocked up his daughter. granted it wasn't a mass shooting, but having an incident like that is more likely then having a mass shooting.
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....And react is not always a firearm solution. Just because we have a gun on us, or wish we did, doesn't make everything a gun option.
That's called, "Just because you have a hammer doesn't make every problem a nail." (or something like that.)
....don't dismiss everything non-firearm as sheeple. I get very tired and frustrated with the Rambos of the online world. I was taught, and I base my training on three phases: Avoid! Deescalate! React!;
What I've seen in other material is all based on Avoid. With zero information on Deescalate or React. I read one article that even discouraged any reaction at all. So that was the basis for my negative expectation, not a desire to be a Rambo either on-line or in-person.
I think Tab has a good point, this is an excellent time to go over emergency evacuation and usher training.
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just the procedures themselves. the grounds would also be helpful to be fully evaluated. look for hiding spots, obstructions evacuations, locks, and then do a sweep of the neighborhood to figure out what is exactly a safe direction. the very last thing you want to be doing a shooting someone where the nursery is right behind the wall. there is a lot of ground to cover here and it will take several hours, maybe even days.
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Hello to POEM. I also participate on our church security team. I have been on the team for over a year now. Ours consist of local, county and state police and firemen (Some retired). I am one of a few who is on the team and not a sworn officer. We do carry firearms and are discreet. We are also trained in first aid and CPR. The church I belong to has four services and we try to have five covering security for each service. We work scheduled weekends.
I was pretty excited to see that The Best Defense put it into an episode. I hope this situation never happens, but being a soft target, better be prepared for the worst.
Must say that in my first year, we had one individual that was pretty crazy. We kept a close eye on him. He had a back pack with a steak knife in it. He was rather odd and mentioned seeing demons. This guy was in and out of jail. He came for a couple of Sundays and disappeared. They found him in a barn out in the county. He had hung himself. Pretty sad.
One of the areas I pay attention to are the Sunday School classes. We have a good program signing the kids in and out. Today you have to worry about abductions and the system works well. The parents and kids are given stickers with their numbers. They sign in and out.
We do tour around the church and wear radios and ear pieces. We escort the offering out and to a secure office. Observe the parking lot for people stealing out of vehicles. We normally have two or three in during the service and two out.
We all really enjoy our service to the church and keeping the parishioners safe and sound. If you have any questions, feel free to message me.